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ECM: OP or not, it does not belong.

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Zan Shiro
Doomheim
#41 - 2013-07-24 06:57:02 UTC
Jake Warbird wrote:
How hard is it to bring your own ECM?



they don't even need to bring ecm. They could bring a cerb (or other crapacal variant). Or any ship that can fire from sniping ranges. ECM is range limited. Bring something that can attack outside the range. My cerb was never popular on roams...but once or twice there I was sniping the falcon. Thanks to its less than stellar tank this gives falcons 3 options. Pray thier boys get to me fast (if they can) , gtfo, or go boom. Falcon chooses to gtfo....its not longer in play. Not a sexy killmail but mission accomplished. My boys are now jsut a bit more jam freee.


Not being an orignal player I got this idea when a cerb did it to me in my falcon. No reimbursement on recons...my boys failed to shut him down fast enough so away I went.
Diesel47
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#42 - 2013-07-24 07:22:32 UTC
Cordo Draken wrote:
Diesel47 wrote:
Cordo Draken wrote:
So, what you're really trying to say is that you don't want ECM around to jack up your Logi Rep chain? So then people start bitchin about Logi's being OP because they're now near impossible to break.

ECM is chance base for a reason... It works just fine.

LOL, at the 5 second cycle time proposal. Aside from that not helping your theory at all, how then does the Projected ECM skill then get applied? Get it down to a 2 second cycle? Lol

Seriously, 5 years later and people still complaining about this, when there are ways to combat it... They're just too lazy to plan ahead.

CCP, instead of further trying to appease the lazy minded, how about developing a Manual Override mode on turrets, where they can fire weapons with a point amd click of the mouse... Without the ships computer helping them Track, estimate range, lead... THAT, would be the only way around that. And the Manual Override could only be used for turreted weapons. Let them see how hard that is... But hey, at least then they could feel like they weren't completely Useless.

Cheers Cool


I don't know if you are being serious but "manual override mode" is just stupid. It would never work, eve isn't some FPS.

How can you complain about other peoples proposals where the one you put is equally as bad.


Oh hai Diesel... Look, I know you still hate from all those times I killed you back in Aki, but try to be more grown up in the forum. By the way, a manual override makes more sense logically and would be more immersive than just trying to wipe out a strategic mechanic making Eve less immersive and have less options to actually be strategic.

The OP mentioned wanting ideas, I gave one... An apparent outside the box one. Perhaps that's what is needed. Simple and easy after all is NOT what is wanted by smart players and CCP.


Rofl, doesn't change the fact that your idea really sucks.

And you can't support your idea by chestbeating about killing a 3 month old noob in akianavas a starter system some 2 years ago. Roll

Nobody suggested straight up removing ECM altogether, I don't know where you made that up.


But for old times sake, are you still sitting in hisec killing the industrials mate? Thought you'd give that up and actually do something that is atleast a little bit challenging by now... Lol
Diesel47
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#43 - 2013-07-24 07:24:04 UTC
Roime wrote:
ECM should turn off randomly picked active modules, number of mods and duration specified by skills, equipment and gear used and a moderate random modifier. New mods and duration rolled per each cycle.

Flight of ECM drones would be able to shut off 1-2 mods for only a short duration.


Not a bad idea, Would be more fun than the current mess it is right now.
Froggy Storm
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#44 - 2013-07-24 07:59:44 UTC
Another alternate idea while still keeping in the flavor of ecm could be to disrupt remote rep/transfer efficiencies. Much the same way a TD works it could do range or amounts by script. Then change all ECCM to reduce effect of an ewar flavor against you. Amarr ECCM vs TD Gal ECCM vs damps and so on.

This then gives both ewar and its counters much more varied fits as well as forcing fleets to adapt for more diverse ewar options.

For example. Caldari grif becomes a anti logi ewar frig. So logi in order to counter some of the effect fit caldari ECCM. Turret ships fit ECCM against TD or Dp and so on.

Overall though I don't see a great deal wrong with all or nothing ecm as it stands now. The rook can't jam out a whole gang while his partner kills ship by ship. A wing of blackbirds however can make significant force multiplication in a battle. Fragile ship with tough ewar that has a luck factor. Seems fairly well balanced.
Evanga
DoctorOzz
Domain Research and Mining Inst.
#45 - 2013-07-24 08:06:53 UTC
bring your own ecm or fit eccm if you hate it that much.
Cordo Draken
ABOS Industrial Enterprises
#46 - 2013-07-24 08:09:56 UTC
Diesel47 wrote:

Rofl, doesn't change the fact that your idea really sucks.

And you can't support your idea by chestbeating about killing a 3 month old noob in akianavas a starter system some 2 years ago. Roll

Nobody suggested straight up removing ECM altogether, I don't know where you made that up.


But for old times sake, are you still sitting in hisec killing the industrials mate? Thought you'd give that up and actually do something that is atleast a little bit challenging by now... Lol


You mean like being in over 100 wars, fraking up large Coalitions & Alliances? Or like you in the arse end of nowhere doing little to nothing but crying over Falcons... Again.

CCP has made efforts to appease the un-appeasable whines of ECM. It's right where it needs to be. And it's clear that you don't want to have to consider the challenge (which really isn't that hard) of getting around ECM. After a few years I'd of thought even you would have figured it out by now.

FYI, if you're going to argue that an idea sux, why don't you provide an actual intelligent argument as to why you think so. After all isn't that why you're here? To explore and debate Ideas? Or is that as well too much of a challenge?

Whomever said, "You only get one shot to make a good impression," was utterly wrong. I've made plenty of great impressions with my Autocannons 
Diesel47
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#47 - 2013-07-24 08:44:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Diesel47
Cordo Draken wrote:
Diesel47 wrote:

Rofl, doesn't change the fact that your idea really sucks.

And you can't support your idea by chestbeating about killing a 3 month old noob in akianavas a starter system some 2 years ago. Roll

Nobody suggested straight up removing ECM altogether, I don't know where you made that up.


But for old times sake, are you still sitting in hisec killing the industrials mate? Thought you'd give that up and actually do something that is atleast a little bit challenging by now... Lol


You mean like being in over 100 wars, fraking up large Coalitions & Alliances? Or like you in the arse end of nowhere doing little to nothing but crying over Falcons... Again.

CCP has made efforts to appease the un-appeasable whines of ECM. It's right where it needs to be. And it's clear that you don't want to have to consider the challenge (which really isn't that hard) of getting around ECM. After a few years I'd of thought even you would have figured it out by now.

FYI, if you're going to argue that an idea sux, why don't you provide an actual intelligent argument as to why you think so. After all isn't that why you're here? To explore and debate Ideas? Or is that as well too much of a challenge?


I don't why you are so bitter. You need to chill. Maybe you've been in hi-sec too long, because your suggestion is something somebody who never played the game would make.

But I guess station camping jita waiting for industrials to come out isn't really "playing" the game now is it. Twisted
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#48 - 2013-07-24 09:18:40 UTC
I think decreasing the cycle time on ECM down to like 10 seconds for modules and 5 seconds for drones would go a long way.


As it is a lucky jam can just **** you over way to hard.

BYDI recruitment closed-ish

Whitehound
#49 - 2013-07-24 10:15:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Whitehound
Garviel Tarrant wrote:
I think decreasing the cycle time on ECM down to like 10 seconds for modules and 5 seconds for drones would go a long way.


As it is a lucky jam can just **** you over way to hard.

I already mentioned above that it will make ECM over-powered when used by a frigate to jam a BS. A BS needs the 20 seconds to lock onto a frigate and do something about it. If you shorten the time down to 10 or 5 seconds then a BS would have to wait for 2 or more lucky drop-outs in a row.

ECM is right as rain. Train your skills up, fly ships with high sensor strengths, fit ECCMs or backup arrays, make use of the sensor integrity gang link or use implants. Not wanting to use these items is no excuse and only dumb.

Here is a trick how to counter ECM drones: launch your own combat drones when you see someone launching ECM drones. Once the ECM drones attack will your own drones fight them off through auto aggression. It does not always need smartbombs.

Loss is meaningful. Therefore is the loss of meaning likewise meaningful. It is the source of all trolling.
Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#50 - 2013-07-24 10:20:06 UTC
Ireland VonVicious wrote:
Roime wrote:
ECM should turn off randomly picked active modules, number of mods and duration specified by skills, equipment and gear used and a moderate random modifier. New mods and duration rolled per each cycle.

Flight of ECM drones would be able to shut off 1-2 mods for only a short duration.



One issue/side effect will show up if this was done.

I'll assume that CCP would be smart enough to start with effectiveness v.s. logistics first.

Then would base the number of modules that shut off based on how many mods they use on average.

As you get to smaller ships it gets real ugly losing a mod compared to a cruiser.

A BS would have it the other way. It would be very minimal effect

That is why I called it issue/side effect.

It may be a wanted side effect to some.
It might be a huge issue for others.

Just be aware that it would happen if that was done to the ECM system.

Would you really want to have to turn back on your tank if you got hit with ECM?

Would it only effect high slot mods if not?

Now the BS v.s. Frigate effect goes crazy.
1/8th of a BS's Damage could be shut off compared to half of a frigates if just one dropped on a given cycle.

Does that leave ECM as god like v.s. frigs? Or do we give all ships the same base sensor strength to compensate?

More questions than answers on this one.


Good points, besides adjusting sensor strenghts there would have to be some balancing math based on slot count in order to not totally **** over frigs.

Anyway, I find the current mechanics unfun, especially spamming target lock while staring at the cycle time indicator, and something should be done about ECM.

Reducing jam time like Garviel suggests would be good first aid, but something about jams targeting random functions of the ship tickles my scifi the right way.

.
Dorrann
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#51 - 2013-07-24 11:05:25 UTC
What about if ECM broke your lock on all targets and increased your lock times by interfering with your ships electronics (the secondary effect of dampeners)? Something like a percentage modifier so that ships that already have long lock times dont see those times become insanely long, but short-lock ships are still hit hard by the ECM.
You would be able to re-lock any targets you like, but it would take longer than normal. Subsequent ECM hits would again break lock and keep the longer lock time.
This makes more sense to me than the complete inability to fight back in a controlled fashion that ECM presents today.

I'd also say take the Lock Time factor away from Dampeners.
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#52 - 2013-07-24 12:12:15 UTC
Whitehound wrote:
Garviel Tarrant wrote:
I think decreasing the cycle time on ECM down to like 10 seconds for modules and 5 seconds for drones would go a long way.


As it is a lucky jam can just **** you over way to hard.

I already mentioned above that it will make ECM over-powered when used by a frigate to jam a BS. A BS needs the 20 seconds to lock onto a frigate and do something about it. If you shorten the time down to 10 or 5 seconds then a BS would have to wait for 2 or more lucky drop-outs in a row.

ECM is right as rain. Train your skills up, fly ships with high sensor strengths, fit ECCMs or backup arrays, make use of the sensor integrity gang link or use implants. Not wanting to use these items is no excuse and only dumb.

Here is a trick how to counter ECM drones: launch your own combat drones when you see someone launching ECM drones. Once the ECM drones attack will your own drones fight them off through auto aggression. It does not always need smartbombs.



Thats true.

Make cycle time dependant on ship size? 5 for frigs, 10 for cruisers, 15 for bc's and 20 for bs'?

BYDI recruitment closed-ish

Muad 'dib
State War Academy
Caldari State
#53 - 2013-07-24 13:34:35 UTC
Diesel47 wrote:

A % chance to make a ship almost completely worthless? This doesn't belongs in a game that is rule and math driven.


This has always been the biggest issue for me, **** your skills and your experience in game, this newbs going to roll a dice and you cant do **** for 20 seconds (which in pvp can be AGES and under tidi... beyond dull)

Thers also the epic problem with ecm drones getting insanely more effective the more there are, not less, like stacking penalty effected EW drones.

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Muad 'dib
State War Academy
Caldari State
#54 - 2013-07-24 13:35:13 UTC
Garviel Tarrant wrote:

Make cycle time dependant on ship size? 5 for frigs, 10 for cruisers, 15 for bc's and 20 for bs'?



Shouldnt it be the other way around considering scan res.

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Morrigan LeSante
Perkone
Caldari State
#55 - 2013-07-24 14:29:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Morrigan LeSante
Remember it's not possible to look at ECM without also looking at the ships - right now ECM birds NEED to stack mods up so hard, they can afford almost no tank whatsoever. That needs considered alongside any potential ECM change - that they need so many mods to be remotely consistent/threatening.

Reason being multi-spec is a bad joke and if you're not rainbow, don't bother undocking (unless there are spies in play, but thats hardly a requirement around other EWAR ships).


Quite honestly, I think FoF projectile/hybrid/laser/etc ammo would suffice for now - perhaps with a 5 second reload on all types with the usual lower damage. They would also help to some degree against other ewars such as damps and massive TD.


Edit: I also dont think you should need to relock after the effect ends, that seems needlessly harsh.
Muad 'dib
State War Academy
Caldari State
#56 - 2013-07-24 15:12:26 UTC
Morrigan LeSante wrote:
Remember it's not possible to look at ECM without also looking at the ships - right now ECM birds NEED to stack mods up so hard, they can afford almost no tank whatsoever. That needs considered alongside any potential ECM change - that they need so many mods to be remotely consistent/threatening.


does a ecm NEED to perma jam 4 ships and have no tank?

the argument there is moot, if you didnt try and perma jam everything to stop dieing you could jam them all half the time and fit a tank, no?

In a game where you can be alphaed, 20 seconds while jammed and useless MAKES PEOPLE QUIT. im gunna quit im 'gunna deal with it' but people do quit - reason? - it is not fun and i see why they leave, this is a game, losing a ship is one thing, it dieing without a fight - sucks.

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Morrigan LeSante
Perkone
Caldari State
#57 - 2013-07-24 16:17:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Morrigan LeSante
You're only permajamming 4 ships if you massively luck out - and with your minuscule EHP, a space flea can fart in your general direction and you'll explode.

A max jam falcon with a DCII is sitting on <9k EHP - that misses a jam and its dead. In moments.


If you don't fit for max jam, /very/ quickly you realise you have unreliable jams, no tank to speak of and you're dead.



Edit; and if there was FOF of all ammo types, there'd be no reason to die without a fight.

Edit2: and that 'max jam' plus DC setup (less T2 rigs) has jam of 14.x, a simple caracal at all V has 19 sensor so the only reliable 'permajam' is a frig or similar.
Muad 'dib
State War Academy
Caldari State
#58 - 2013-07-24 17:34:55 UTC
Morrigan LeSante wrote:
You're only permajamming 4 ships if you massively luck out - and with your minuscule EHP, a space flea can fart in your general direction and you'll explode.

A max jam falcon with a DCII is sitting on <9k EHP - that misses a jam and its dead. In moments.


If you don't fit for max jam, /very/ quickly you realise you have unreliable jams, no tank to speak of and you're dead.



Edit; and if there was FOF of all ammo types, there'd be no reason to die without a fight.

Edit2: and that 'max jam' plus DC setup (less T2 rigs) has jam of 14.x, a simple caracal at all V has 19 sensor so the only reliable 'permajam' is a frig or similar.


and yet if ecm is SO MUCH FUN for these pilots, why doesnt everyone fly an ecm ship? Cus it is in fact dull and a ****** way to win or effect a fight.

Those people like being a **** and thats fine this game has plenty of ways to be a ****, but they all flock to ecm because its cheap it works insanely well and its low skill THIS DOES NOT MAKE SENSE FOR EVE THOUGH

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Diesel47
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#59 - 2013-07-24 17:35:42 UTC
Morrigan LeSante wrote:
You're only permajamming 4 ships if you massively luck out - and with your minuscule EHP, a space flea can fart in your general direction and you'll explode.

A max jam falcon with a DCII is sitting on <9k EHP - that misses a jam and its dead. In moments.


If you don't fit for max jam, /very/ quickly you realise you have unreliable jams, no tank to speak of and you're dead.



Edit; and if there was FOF of all ammo types, there'd be no reason to die without a fight.

Edit2: and that 'max jam' plus DC setup (less T2 rigs) has jam of 14.x, a simple caracal at all V has 19 sensor so the only reliable 'permajam' is a frig or similar.


You are acting as if an ECM ship sits right next to their target.

Any competent falcon will always be way away, aligned out ready to warp at any sign of trouble.


Like Muad said, the idea that any noob can roll a dice and make you worthless for 20 seconds is just a bad idea. Overpowered or not, it isn't fun, it doesn't fit in with the rest of the pvp mechanics and the majority of the pvpers (people that actually PvP, not the pretenders) don't like it.
Morrigan LeSante
Perkone
Caldari State
#60 - 2013-07-24 17:48:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Morrigan LeSante
I didn't say I liked it, or it was a good mechanic, in fact im sure ive said before its a BAD mechanic however here I said - remember the hulls need looking at in conjunction with the modules. Imagine a rook with 2-3 spare mids and rigs, that'd be some sick monster.

Further, a noob in a falcon is just as dangerous as a noob in an arazu. Jammed or damped to hell, you're just as dead. Likewise the TD hulls.