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Why nerf high sec?

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Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#461 - 2013-07-24 09:22:42 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:


The Skiff has a huge tank for HS, and for low/0.0 it has quick warp out, the tank also enables you to survive long enough for help, of course people don't have Falcon alts cloaked above their mining ships do they Big smile

You cannot get 25k EHP on a Coveter...


Or just keep a mack aligned and mine more. There really isn't any reason to fly the skiff over the mack or retriver.


This keep aligned suggestion is crap for HS, tank is king there its basically tank to survive until Concord get there and a Sjkiff means no one tries it on unless you are targetted for some reason. In terms of low sec alignment and D-scan is king there, in terms of 0.0 bubbles on gates, stop bubbles on warp ins and aligning is key, but T3's make the bubbles ineffective...

The yield is not that much lower than a Mack, personally a Skiff makes it very low risk, but here is the rub, I make it low risk by using a tanked Skiff.

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#462 - 2013-07-24 09:27:55 UTC
Dracvlad wrote:


Well I know someone who was in EXE and his out of alliance freighter alt was popped by the CFC empty in one of those bottleneck systems, he made the assunption that being empty would be safe, so was on autopilot, and it was not even burn Jita.


Then he was target for another reason. (We kill targets deemed war suppliers of our enemies empty or not)

Even so, freighter ganks are a very rare events.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#463 - 2013-07-24 09:34:15 UTC  |  Edited by: baltec1
Dracvlad wrote:



This keep aligned suggestion is crap for HS, tank is king there its basically tank to survive until Concord get there and a Sjkiff means no one tries it on unless you are targetted for some reason. In terms of low sec alignment and D-scan is king there, in terms of 0.0 bubbles on gates, stop bubbles on warp ins and aligning is key, but T3's make the bubbles ineffective...

The yield is not that much lower than a Mack, personally a Skiff makes it very low risk, but here is the rub, I make it low risk by using a tanked Skiff.


You would earn more in a mack which is unprofitable to gank simply by putting on a single tank mod. Hence why the skiff is just not needed and why few fly them. Most just fly the retriver because its cheap, big hold, good yeild and quite frankly if you lose one you can pay off the cost of replacing it in a few hauls. In null and low macks and retrievers are the ship of choice because we keep them aligned and they mine more than a skiff and get that big hold.

The skiff is in a bad place dispite its huge tank.
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#464 - 2013-07-24 09:35:17 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:


Well I know someone who was in EXE and his out of alliance freighter alt was popped by the CFC empty in one of those bottleneck systems, he made the assunption that being empty would be safe, so was on autopilot, and it was not even burn Jita.


Then he was target for another reason. (We kill targets deemed war suppliers of our enemies empty or not)

Even so, freighter ganks are a very rare events.


Yeah thats true, the alliance he had the alt in was orange or red to Goons, they got that changed after the freighter was ganked.

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp
Josef Djugashvilis
#465 - 2013-07-24 10:54:50 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
The problem with hi-sec isn't that income is capped too high but that risk is capped too low.


Hopefully, you will only get to serve one term on the CSM.

Man, I get so tired of lo/null-sec folk, who, by the way choose to live there, constantly complaining about hi-sec.

This is not a signature.
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#466 - 2013-07-24 12:32:51 UTC
Josef Djugashvilis wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
The problem with hi-sec isn't that income is capped too high but that risk is capped too low.


Hopefully, you will only get to serve one term on the CSM.

Man, I get so tired of lo/null-sec folk, who, by the way choose to live there, constantly complaining about hi-sec.


I get tired of high sec welfare recipients not understanding that all WE want is to not have to be virtually shacked to them just to play a game.

And Malcanis shall serve on the CSM as long as he wishes. I and my 57 accounts shall see to it.

*Jenn Subs 53 more accounts just to be ready for the next election*
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#467 - 2013-07-24 12:49:44 UTC
Dracvlad wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
The problem with hi-sec isn't that income is capped too high but that risk is capped too low.


There are gankers, flying around expensive cargo is always a high risk, flying a Transport ship out of Jita 4-4 is high risk, with the CFC flying even an empty freighter is risky, flying an untanked barge or exhumer is risky, flying blinged Tengu's is a risk, then you can get war decced, you can accept a duel and find multiple people on that duel, that is now high risk, you can have kill rights activated on you at the worst possible time, risk.

In terms of incursions, I was talking to one mate two minutes after a fleet mate had his bling fitted incrusion runner blown up by targetted ganking, that is a risk.

The risk for Transport ships is so great that if I buy one in a hub I go pick it up with an Orca.

Malcanis do you even play in HS?



Indeed I do. And I routinely undock a deadspace fitted faction BS and warp it to an unscouted gate when local has over 100 non-blues, which is something that I would never, ever do in 0.0 even if there were zero non-blues in local.

I also often run blockade runners in and out of Jita, and although I feel constrained to pay minimal attention once I get within 2-3 jumps, I also feel massively safer than I would moving one through 0.0

There is one major source of risk on hi-sec: That it's so safe, some people (wrongly) assume that it is and is supposed to be completely safe and thus make themselves such attractive, easy targets that even the tiny actual risk of operating in hi-sec becomes a real one.

As someone who has spent years in 0.0, the idea that hi-sec is "risky" is simply laughable.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#468 - 2013-07-24 12:51:56 UTC
Josef Djugashvilis wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
The problem with hi-sec isn't that income is capped too high but that risk is capped too low.


Hopefully, you will only get to serve one term on the CSM.

Man, I get so tired of lo/null-sec folk, who, by the way choose to live there, constantly complaining about hi-sec.


Much like clicking undock means you consent to PvP, opening a thread called "why nerf hi-sec" means you consent to reading posts about nerfing hi-sec.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#469 - 2013-07-24 12:57:26 UTC
Dracvlad wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:


Malcanis do you even play in HS?



We hit less than 0.001% of all freighter traffic a month.


Maybe, but you guys are very good at killing freighters and at times you go on killing sprees based around your scurity status, so at times it is high risk, also you ply this trade in certain systems that you have to use, like Uedama. So moving stuff around which does not require using those systems is low risk, but moving through those bottleneck systems is high risk, especially around certain TZ's.


What do you think the risk of moving a freighter around 0.0 is, in comparison?

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Mark Androcius
#470 - 2013-07-24 13:13:04 UTC
Post with some good info
Null-sec explained.

Has only 1 station per system ( if it even has one ).

Each station is only good for 1 thing ( Refining Minmatar, Factory Amarr, Offices Gallente and the quite useless due to high sec being so OP Research Caldari ).

Jumping from one system into another, without KNOWING what is on the other side = FAIL and could lead to the loss of billions of iskies.

Miners CAN NOT mine if there is even 1 non blue in system, no PvP player is gonna sit there and protect them, just to see nothing happen for days and the HUGE potential of the non blue being a hot-dropper, makes even PvP backup a potentially very risky en devour.

You can have million upon millions of M3 of stuff in your item hangar, that needs to be shipped out, before you can actually make a profit.
Again the same rules as those for the miners in null apply here, if you are camped for a week, that means no income either ( or at least severely reduced income )

Ratting players CAN NOT go outside their own sovereign space, unless it's NPC space, this means they can't just go out 50-60 jumps from where they live, just to see if he can find a nice spot to rat in.


No for the plus sides of null ( while comparing those to high )

PI is GREAT, but you can only do it in your own alliance sovereign space, ergo, you are bound to a specific set of planets and that's IT, the more people doing PI there, the harder isk making becomes.

Ratting makes good isk and sometimes has nice drops, when compared to high sec though, incursions make the same isk, if not even more, also, you can't go out ratting when you can expect to be hot-dropped any second.

Mining in null makes much more than mining in high, yet at the same time, null sec corporations still have to import VAST numbers of high sec ores, just to be able to build stuff.
Doing it the other way around is in fact MUCH easier ( mining, producing and living in high, while buying null sec ores and using them to build things in npc stations ).

https://androcius.wordpress.com
symolan
BamBam Inc.
#471 - 2013-07-24 13:21:56 UTC  |  Edited by: symolan
Mark Androcius wrote:
Post with some good info
Null-sec explained.

Has only 1 station per system ( if it even has one ).

Each station is only good for 1 thing ( Refining Minmatar, Factory Amarr, Offices Gallente and the quite useless due to high sec being so OP Research Caldari ).

Jumping from one system into another, without KNOWING what is on the other side = FAIL and could lead to the loss of billions of iskies.

Miners CAN NOT mine if there is even 1 non blue in system, no PvP player is gonna sit there and protect them, just to see nothing happen for days and the HUGE potential of the non blue being a hot-dropper, makes even PvP backup a potentially very risky en devour.

You can have million upon millions of M3 of stuff in your item hangar, that needs to be shipped out, before you can actually make a profit.
Again the same rules as those for the miners in null apply here, if you are camped for a week, that means no income either ( or at least severely reduced income )

Ratting players CAN NOT go outside their own sovereign space, unless it's NPC space, this means they can't just go out 50-60 jumps from where they live, just to see if he can find a nice spot to rat in.


No for the plus sides of null ( while comparing those to high )

PI is GREAT, but you can only do it in your own alliance sovereign space, ergo, you are bound to a specific set of planets and that's IT, the more people doing PI there, the harder isk making becomes.

Ratting makes good isk and sometimes has nice drops, when compared to high sec though, incursions make the same isk, if not even more, also, you can't go out ratting when you can expect to be hot-dropped any second.

Mining in null makes much more than mining in high, yet at the same time, null sec corporations still have to import VAST numbers of high sec ores, just to be able to build stuff.
Doing it the other way around is in fact MUCH easier ( mining, producing and living in high, while buying null sec ores and using them to build things in npc stations ).


makes you wonder what all the people in null actually do there if it's such an unforgiving and bad place. you're all masochists or is it possible that, well

you're whining?

EDIT: (I'd assume that CCP does have figures on what HS and other people do on average. If it's so bad there I'd guess CCP might notice it and do something.)
Ivan Krividus
Cold Lazarus Inc
The-Expanse
#472 - 2013-07-24 13:23:19 UTC
Julius Priscus wrote:
Bill Overbeck wrote:
I don't understand all this hate. Especially when it seems most of sov null sec seems to be high sec but with players as Concord. And it changes hands every once in a while.


when someone can happily make more isk in high sec than null/low sec... something is not right.

I know for a fact one can make a easy 1-3+b isk a week in high sec. yes I know possible to do that in null as well.

imo.. make al combat missions in high sec anti-faction missions. if you want bounties goto low/null sec for it.

I'm going to have to agree with this. Nerf missions, etc. Oh, and by the way, anti-faction missions are the most profitable ones, IMO. Some of them will make you a fast 25m in about 10 minutes

My main problem was with mining. Hisec mining was already very crappy, but some people want it nerfed more
Mark Androcius
#473 - 2013-07-24 13:24:20 UTC
If CCP ever made null sec a viable industry space ( maybe allowing 2 stations per system, while adding great big high sec ore rocks, while also vastly improving the Caldari outpost ), the high sec market would slowly come to a grinding halt.

The only people buying stuff in high, would be people who live in high ( guess where most of your high sec indy income comes from... that's right, null sec corporations buying your stuff ).
People would make the stuff they need in null right there, in null, no more need for jump freighters.


EvE would be divided into 2 camps, who live completely separate from each-other.
In the long term, i think more and more people would go from high into null, just because the market there would boom like nothing ever seen before.

High sec would still be a useful piece of space, i mean, there would still be incursions and LP to gain, so it wouldn't ever die, but at i think it would make the game WAY better in the long run.

The more people who go from high to null, the better the game will become, i have absolutely no doubt about this.

https://androcius.wordpress.com
Mark Androcius
#474 - 2013-07-24 13:36:32 UTC
symolan wrote:
makes you wonder what all the people in null actually do there if it's such an unforgiving and bad place. you're all masochists or is it possible that, well

you're whining?

EDIT: (I'd assume that CCP does have figures on what HS and other people do on average. If it's so bad there I'd guess CCP might notice it and do something.)


CCP actually DID do something about it in the Odyssey expansion.
They made the ore compositions so, that the higher level ores ( null sec ones ) deliver more low grade minerals ( that usually come from high sec ores ).
Yet, this has proven to still not be enough, as we still require vast numbers of mainly Mexallon, of which there is still way to little available.

At the same time, CCP changing the exploration game and changing how scanning works, mining in a gravimetric site has become more dangerous.
In the past, you had plenty of time to warp to a safe spot, but now, they can just warp straight to where you are mining at, with ample time for you as a miner to be warned of impending danger and time to warp to safety.

Some people call warping to safety weak, but they obviously have some screws loose in their heads, since you as a miner not warping to a safe, means you will die 100% of the time.
As a miner has no means to defend itself, warping off is the only option.


Also, yes, i am whining, but isn't your reply to this also a form of whining?
And another also, if you do not known what it feels like to be a woman for example, don't comment on why they behave the way they do.
If you don't know what it feels like to be a null sec pilot, don't comment on why they behave the way they do.

You are of course always free to ask why they behave the way they do.

https://androcius.wordpress.com
Benny Ohu
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#475 - 2013-07-24 13:38:00 UTC
Ivan Krividus wrote:
Hisec mining was already very crappy,

only arkonor and mercoxit were appreciably higher in value than scordite plag and pyro until odyssey
E-2C Hawkeye
HOW to PEG SAFETY
#476 - 2013-07-24 13:42:49 UTC
What I don’t get is you have all these people like jenn and others in other threads with topics against ganking and afk cloaking and the like telling others to stop crying stop asking for change to HTFU and deal with it sand box blaaah blaaah blaa. They non-stop troll people until they finally just get fed up and stop posting.

Yet they jump in threads like this one and doe exactly what they criticize and berate other posters for doing.

Let’s call this exactly what it is…. hypocrisy.

The average player plays eve and never worries with the forum. I know from past experience it’s the squeaky wheel that gets the grease.

I for one don’t want to see these people like jenn get their way and ruin the game. They can’t see past their own noses to see that it’s all tied together and that in order for null/low sec to work hi-sec needs to thrive regardless of the risk vs. reward.

Hell 99% of null use hi-sec to fund their ships loss. I know I do.

So take your own advice you have given countless times in other threads and stop your crying stop asking for change find a way to deal to with it adapt and HTFU.
symolan
BamBam Inc.
#477 - 2013-07-24 13:54:03 UTC
Mark Androcius wrote:

Also, yes, i am whining, but isn't your reply to this also a form of whining?
And another also, if you do not known what it feels like to be a woman for example, don't comment on why they behave the way they do.
If you don't know what it feels like to be a null sec pilot, don't comment on why they behave the way they do.

You are of course always free to ask why they behave the way they do.


I'm so fresh in this game that I have not much to whine about yet. (tested the game few years back and starting to get a bit addicted now).

I'm reading the forum which is the reason I did the whine-comment, as it seems Highseccers are accused of being such. And as I like irony...

Out of personal reasons I will not join a corp. As I understand it till now this is a precondition for Null. I'm aware that MMO's are more fun in a group, but I do have my reasons and I guess I'm not the only one.

I get the impression that if industry is truly feasible in null, there is not much reason for certain substances to find their way into High or at least at rather high prices. (also, it's counterintuitive to have industrial centres in "Frontier"-regions)

which would mean quite a cap in content for me.

Also, please do not forget that there are some players who aren't able to run thru lvl 4 missions in 10 min. I need a terrible & embarassing long time to complete L4's (but L3's are too easy currently). So that I guess my reward in HS is not what you want to cap.

Especially the more industry in Null-sec idea scares me a bit, as it seems possible that this is kind of a Force-to-corps move. And I will not be forced.

Please correct me if I'm wrong (which is quite possibly as stated above).

It's quite difficult to balance a game that's been on the market for a decade. There are newb's who want to see the possibility of achieving something and you have vets running thru things that are challenges for others.
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#478 - 2013-07-24 13:59:26 UTC
E-2C Hawkeye wrote:
What I don’t get is you have all these people like jenn and others in other threads with topics against ganking and afk cloaking and the like telling others to stop crying stop asking for change to HTFU and deal with it sand box blaaah blaaah blaa. They non-stop troll people until they finally just get fed up and stop posting.


That's just you being butt hurt. I won't speak for anyone else, But I have never failed to tell the truth as I've seen it, and defense of the truth should and MUST be vigorous lest lies prevail.

But, rather than think more about what you post, or try to understand why i oppose what you say, you just skulk off in full boooty pain mode, like I did something wrong.

No sir, it was you, every time.

Quote:

Yet they jump in threads like this one and doe exactly what they criticize and berate other posters for doing.

Let’s call this exactly what it is…. hypocrisy.

The average player plays eve and never worries with the forum. I know from past experience it’s the squeaky wheel that gets the grease.

I for one don’t want to see these people like jenn get their way and ruin the game. They can’t see past their own noses to see that it’s all tied together and that in order for null/low sec to work hi-sec needs to thrive regardless of the risk vs. reward.


Just wanted to quote that part so I could show everyone the butt hurt part.

Quote:

Hell 99% of null use hi-sec to fund their ships loss. I know I do.


This is the meat of the matter. Even you can see the imbalance. WHY are so many people using high sec to fund their activites when null has all kinds of PVE?

it's because null also has a much higher danger potential (as it should). Their are 2 fixes to the imbalance:

buff null and low- This doesn't work because EVERY time ccp did that, it went bad. "Titans in Forsaken hubs with scimitars track linking them" bad. "Throwaway frigs making billions in FW" bad.

It was great for me and people like me, but bad for the game. So we understood when ccp nerfed us (multiple times)I

The other option is to carve up some of the ridicules stuff in high sec, soo much "free" stuff it's crazy. That's a better option for the game because (whilst we tend to hate it) nerfing is good as is prevents power creep.

My bet is that, at the end of the day because CCP basically painted themselves into a corner (they know they can't buff rewards out of high sec but nerfing high sec will cause serious community problems), nothing is really ever going to change and we'll have to end up living with the imbalance....

But it is an imbalance and eve you can see that.


Also, thanks for mentioning my name so many times. Means I own you, and you need to get back to your shed before I get my strap, I don't like uppity slaves Independent contract employees.
Mark Androcius
#479 - 2013-07-24 14:18:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Mark Androcius
Jenn aSide wrote:
Quote:

Hell 99% of null use hi-sec to fund their ships loss. I know I do.


This is the meat of the matter. Even you can see the imbalance. WHY are so many people using high sec to fund their activites when null has all kinds of PVE?

it's because null also has a much higher danger potential (as it should). Their are 2 fixes to the imbalance:

buff null and low- This doesn't work because EVERY time ccp did that, it went bad. "Titans in Forsaken hubs with scimitars track linking them" bad. "Throwaway frigs making billions in FW" bad.

It was great for me and people like me, but bad for the game. So we understood when ccp nerfed us (multiple times)I

The other option is to carve up some of the ridicules stuff in high sec, soo much "free" stuff it's crazy. That's a better option for the game because (whilst we tend to hate it) nerfing is good as is prevents power creep.



I don't want to nerf high sec OR buff null sec ( at least not in terms of isk making potential ).
I truly believe that, when making null sec more viable for industrialists, CCP would see the best results.
Making null sec independent of high sec, would not kill high sec and would not force anyone to go to null either.

Whichever space you'd live in, is a viable one.
However, if CCP could get at least 30% of all the people who live in high now into null...... Yeah, that would make the game so much better.

You'd see way more sov changes, way more null sec wars, lot's more iskies destroyed in those wars, lot's more stuff produced to keep those wars going, it would be great for the economy and provide a LOT of fun for PvP players.

The amount of people whinging about to little targets would go down, the amount of people whining about how high sec is so OP would go down.


Living in null sec is great as is, it is so much more exciting and anything you do, has so much more impact on so much more people.
Me freightering load after load of ore's and minerals in null, is a highly appreciated thing, it gives you status within the alliance and makes you a key member of a great group of people/friends.
Building stuff in null sec or just setting up bucket loads of market orders at fair prices, makes you a fair sum of money, more than in high sec sometimes and with more people living in null, it would even be better, while also making you a valuable person to have in your alliance.

Compare this to high and you are merely a puppet, who can be replaced by the average Joe at a moments notice, you quit EvE and nobody will give 2 shytes.

I can't imagine this to be the game everyone always dreamed of, if it was like that all the time.

https://androcius.wordpress.com
Manfred Hideous
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#480 - 2013-07-24 14:24:08 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
E-2C Hawkeye wrote:
What I don’t get is you have all these people like jenn and others in other threads with topics against ganking and afk cloaking and the like telling others to stop crying stop asking for change to HTFU and deal with it sand box blaaah blaaah blaa. They non-stop troll people until they finally just get fed up and stop posting.


That's just you being butt hurt. I won't speak for anyone else, But I have never failed to tell the truth as I've seen it, and defense of the truth should and MUST be vigorous lest lies prevail.

But, rather than think more about what you post, or try to understand why i oppose what you say, you just skulk off in full boooty pain mode, like I did something wrong.

No sir, it was you, every time.

Quote:

Yet they jump in threads like this one and doe exactly what they criticize and berate other posters for doing.

Let’s call this exactly what it is…. hypocrisy.

The average player plays eve and never worries with the forum. I know from past experience it’s the squeaky wheel that gets the grease.

I for one don’t want to see these people like jenn get their way and ruin the game. They can’t see past their own noses to see that it’s all tied together and that in order for null/low sec to work hi-sec needs to thrive regardless of the risk vs. reward.


Just wanted to quote that part so I could show everyone the butt hurt part.

Quote:

Hell 99% of null use hi-sec to fund their ships loss. I know I do.


This is the meat of the matter. Even you can see the imbalance. WHY are so many people using high sec to fund their activites when null has all kinds of PVE?

it's because null also has a much higher danger potential (as it should). Their are 2 fixes to the imbalance:

buff null and low- This doesn't work because EVERY time ccp did that, it went bad. "Titans in Forsaken hubs with scimitars track linking them" bad. "Throwaway frigs making billions in FW" bad.

It was great for me and people like me, but bad for the game. So we understood when ccp nerfed us (multiple times)I

The other option is to carve up some of the ridicules stuff in high sec, soo much "free" stuff it's crazy. That's a better option for the game because (whilst we tend to hate it) nerfing is good as is prevents power creep.

My bet is that, at the end of the day because CCP basically painted themselves into a corner (they know they can't buff rewards out of high sec but nerfing high sec will cause serious community problems), nothing is really ever going to change and we'll have to end up living with the imbalance....

But it is an imbalance and eve you can see that.


Also, thanks for mentioning my name so many times. Means I own you, and you need to get back to your shed before I get my strap, I don't like uppity slaves Independent contract employees.



There are areas in null where you can make a fortune ratting in a super (though think of the difference in cost when some awoxer gets said super)

Most of null, or at least a very large minority of systems aren't that much better than lowsec. Not every system is a -0.5 or below. These sub par systems are the ones most in need of a buff as it's these areas that have large numbers of pilots using missioning alts to afford PVP.

Yes, this would inject more isk into the game and yes, it would affect the highsec market but having that happen isn't exactly bad for eve. The real isk would be in null, where it should be. If nullseccers with deep pockets drive up prices in highsec, then that's not much different than all of the T1 hulls doubling (at least) in cost because CCP increased mineral requirements.