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Pilgrim bonuses
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uyguhb
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#21 - 2013-07-24 08:52:41 UTC  |  Edited by: uyguhb
Curse is an amazing ship with a great effective range regardless of the neut amount. And trying to keep a couple properly fitted well skilled falcons from jamming you is no easy task. while i dont expect (hope) the recons being heavily changed. If they do intend to keep the role the same i would like a range bonus in place of amount for the pilgrim bringing its "optimal range" more inline with the rest.
Aliventi
Rattini Tribe
Minmatar Fleet Alliance
#22 - 2013-07-24 09:13:18 UTC
I am going to call BS on you being able to fly any of those ships or that you counter dropped anything until you post with your main. That just so happens to be how things work around here if you want to be taken seriously. Blink

You are still ignoring that the Pilgrim has a get out of jail free card with its ability to neut off points. If you change the bonus that will become far less likely. And your claim that all a ship has to do is lock you up and cyno in a prepared titan bridged fleet with dictors is scenario cherry picking. And despite your cherry picking all you have to do is be aligned out so you can warp when the cyno goes up.

The Pilgrim is fine. Your incompetence as a pilot to be aligned out ready to warp and neuting off their point doesn't mean we need to gut the Pilgrim. The neut effectiveness bonus is THE T2 Amarr bonus. It isn't likely to go away. And even if it was you still have yet to bring up a single good reason as to why it should be changed. And your "range = defense" argument has already been proved wrong when it come to the pilgrim because the pilgrim can align, warp out, drone down dictors, and neut off points and hictor bubbles. No other ship on the field has that many get out of jail free cards which would explain why those ships have longer ranges.
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#23 - 2013-07-24 09:17:37 UTC
Aliventi wrote:
I am going to call BS on you being able to fly any of those ships or that you counter dropped anything until you post with your main. That just so happens to be how things work around here if you want to be taken seriously. Blink

You are still ignoring that the Pilgrim has a get out of jail free card with its ability to neut off points. If you change the bonus that will become far less likely. And your claim that all a ship has to do is lock you up and cyno in a prepared titan bridged fleet with dictors is scenario cherry picking. And despite your cherry picking all you have to do is be aligned out so you can warp when the cyno goes up.

The Pilgrim is fine. Your incompetence as a pilot to be aligned out ready to warp and neuting off their point doesn't mean we need to gut the Pilgrim. The neut effectiveness bonus is THE T2 Amarr bonus. It isn't likely to go away. And even if it was you still have yet to bring up a single good reason as to why it should be changed. And your "range = defense" argument has already been proved wrong when it come to the pilgrim because the pilgrim can align, warp out, drone down dictors, and neut off points and hictor bubbles. No other ship on the field has that many get out of jail free cards which would explain why those ships have longer ranges.



Pilgrim is actually pretty bad..

But so is the curse, people are just generally to bad to realize..

(Note i'm not saying they don't have their uses, just that for the price they are pretty damn underpowered)

BYDI recruitment closed-ish

uyguhb
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#24 - 2013-07-24 09:45:30 UTC  |  Edited by: uyguhb
A. thanks all for the bump. B. you are kinda even proving the point im trying to make. If the bonuses of every other combat covert ship are an indication of what ccp had/has in mind with force recons then they are designed to work in groups using superior long ewar to cover themselves and the fragile bombers (dealing HIGH dps/mass also at extended ranges) and expensive blackops from counter attack. how does the pilgrim fall into that category even remotely? neuting is neuting, if you are doing it right DPS and neuts = dead target (control the field and dont bring bad fits) , while the amount bonus is nice, the range bonus lets is stay at a more appropriate range to fade away during a counter drop like any other recon/bomber and even t3's for that matter, except for the neuting legion. but this thread is about the community opinion of this idea (anyone feel free to add ideas) and what if ccp could drop a little feelings about this idea so i can decide to finish training my amarr toon recon V :)

and im sorry but it makes me laugh hearing a NC. guy acting like counter dropping is SO hard to do and the pilgrim who gets in 13km of its target escapes with ease.

Oh look terrible terrible tribe knows how to counter drop o.0

http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_related&kll_id=16889497.........



http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_related&kll_id=17607077 and the rest got killed jumping gates back
Sigras
Conglomo
#25 - 2013-07-24 09:49:06 UTC
Garviel Tarrant wrote:
Aliventi wrote:
I am going to call BS on you being able to fly any of those ships or that you counter dropped anything until you post with your main. That just so happens to be how things work around here if you want to be taken seriously. Blink

You are still ignoring that the Pilgrim has a get out of jail free card with its ability to neut off points. If you change the bonus that will become far less likely. And your claim that all a ship has to do is lock you up and cyno in a prepared titan bridged fleet with dictors is scenario cherry picking. And despite your cherry picking all you have to do is be aligned out so you can warp when the cyno goes up.

The Pilgrim is fine. Your incompetence as a pilot to be aligned out ready to warp and neuting off their point doesn't mean we need to gut the Pilgrim. The neut effectiveness bonus is THE T2 Amarr bonus. It isn't likely to go away. And even if it was you still have yet to bring up a single good reason as to why it should be changed. And your "range = defense" argument has already been proved wrong when it come to the pilgrim because the pilgrim can align, warp out, drone down dictors, and neut off points and hictor bubbles. No other ship on the field has that many get out of jail free cards which would explain why those ships have longer ranges.



Pilgrim is actually pretty bad..

But so is the curse, people are just generally to bad to realize..

(Note i'm not saying they don't have their uses, just that for the price they are pretty damn underpowered)

Im not sure I would take any ship over the curse for a solo roam . . . maybe the vagabond, but even then, a curse would sweep the floor with it, the only thing that the vaga can do more reliably is run away

That being said, would you take the range bonus over the amount bonus? I feel like they need to be mutually exclusive on a force recon.

Actually now that I think of it, for consistency's sake, it should probably lose the bonus to drone damage bonus because thats what all the other force recons lose over their combat counterparts, damage potential.
uyguhb
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#26 - 2013-07-24 09:53:50 UTC
thank you. i really really love drones. but its acting like a solo ship when all the rest work ok solo but great in groups. when you can have a 40m bomber putting out 600 dps and ewar. needing a set of bonused med drones isnt the thing i need most during a gank or fight. its tracking disruptors and neuts.
uyguhb
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#27 - 2013-07-24 16:46:21 UTC
bump
uyguhb
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#28 - 2013-07-24 18:19:06 UTC
Even the electronic attack frigates all get a range bonus.
After the patch i have every reason to choose the armageddon for the job of neuting because of the range bonus alone.
So for ships (EWAR ships) that appear to be designed with less tank / damage / speed in favor of increased ship disruption range the pilgrim is the only electronic warfare ship that has "Brawler" status.
Doddy
Excidium.
#29 - 2013-07-24 18:43:43 UTC
I don't even see why it should get less range than the curse. Currently an arazu can decloak and tackle you from 50k away while range damping you so you can't hurt it yet ccp thinks 3 med neuts with a range bonus would be op when combined with cov ops cloak?

Apart from anything else such short range neuts reduces the effectiveness of its own tracking disruptors (since it has to get close to use them). Would be like arazu getting the damp bonus but not the point bonus.
uyguhb
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#30 - 2013-07-24 19:07:40 UTC  |  Edited by: uyguhb
Exactly if the pilgrim had a 40% range and amount bonus i would feel that is overpowering with a covert cloak.
But a 20% range bonus would mean the pilgrim is STILL the recon forced into the closest range due to the main reason for bringing one. neuts. if i need heavy heavy neuts then i should probably focus on controlling the field so i can bring in a couple Sins.

the only counter argument anyone has made is that the pilgrim is overpowering overall as a ship.
but also most seem to agree that the pilgrim is not very good at guerrilla warfare while every other ship excels in that role

lack of a impressive tank means depending on superior ewar / engagement range to do its job properly. while i would very much prefer a range bonus over amount bonus if i cant have the range bonus i feel the pilgrim should have a buffed nueting amount to compensate for the rather suicidal range med nuets have.

Even the sentinel gets a range bonus AND amount bonus allowing its effective range with neuts to be 16.3km while a pilgrim with faction neuts is STILL forced into a closer range than that. Does that make sense?
Doddy
Excidium.
#31 - 2013-07-24 19:10:11 UTC
Aliventi wrote:
Because stasis web effectiveness is a Serpentis ship trait. The daredevil, vigilant and Vindicator all share it. Web range is the T2 minmatar bonus. The T2 Amarr ship bonus is neut effectiveness. You can see this in how the Sentinel picks up this bonus in addition to the tracking disruption bonus. Both the Curse and the Pilgrim have the bonus. This is how things are.

Now if you want to make a convincing argument you should argue that Blood Raider ships should be the exclusive users of neut effectiveness and switch the Amarr T2 bonus to neut range. This would allow Blood Raider ships to be more specialized with a niche role while bringing the Amarr T2 bonus in line with 2 of the other races which T2 bonus is Web/warp disruption range. Caldari and their ECM will always be an odd one out as they have a T2 ECM strength bonus. That means the neut range bonus might even go on to the Paladin instead the oddly placed web strength bonus.

Also, missile velocity and flight time do essentially the same thing so swapping one for the other won't change stealth bombers much. And it is 20% per Recon level. So those neuts will be VERY effective as you skill up. Toss in the tracking disruption and you have a very lethal ship which any competent PvPer would pick to fill that role over and bomber or BlOps BS.


Your argument is funny. The pilgrim is the only t2 amarr ship that makes the neut bonus more prevalent than the range bonus, the sentinel and curse have both. CCP replaced one with cov ops cloak usage, whichever they chose would make the other more prevalent. You could have just gone with "thats the way it is" instead of going wall of text. Or you trying to say its because of the t1 neut range bonuses, the ones added to game years afterwards?

There is no convincing reason why the other force recons have the same ewar effectiveness bonus wise as the combat recons while the pilgrim loses out. Of course this is down to the curse getting an out of place neut effectiveness bonus where the other combat recons get terrible split damage bonus

As it is i think the recon rebalance will render this argument invalid anyway. Recons will become more role specific. Going the way of the dodo will be the cov ops cpu bonus (become role bonus), the split damage bonuses, the rook cap use bonus and so on.
uyguhb
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#32 - 2013-07-24 19:27:02 UTC
well the ahac changes were pretty underwhelming so i wasnt expecting alot of changes effective range wise to the recons. or at least im hoping. in my honest opinion the recon ships are just fine. they dont have impressive tanks, or dps, purely a bonused effective range/superior ewar. while stealth bombers can pump out much more dps with even more fragile tanks. So i feel that recons are completely fine in the role they have. And function well when paired with other specialized covert ships. roaming solo they are not so impressive. but can still defend themselves in various ways.
Doddy
Excidium.
#33 - 2013-07-24 19:27:02 UTC
uyguhb wrote:
Exactly if the pilgrim had a 40% range and amount bonus i would feel that is overpowering with a covert cloak.
But a 20% range bonus would mean the pilgrim is STILL the recon forced into the closest range due to the main reason for bringing one. neuts. if i need heavy heavy neuts then i should probably focus on controlling the field so i can bring in a couple Sins.

the only counter argument anyone has made is that the pilgrim is overpowering overall as a ship.
but also most seem to agree that the pilgrim is not very good at guerrilla warfare while every other ship excels in that role

lack of a impressive tank means depending on superior ewar / engagement range to do its job properly. while i would very much prefer a range bonus over amount bonus if i cant have the range bonus i feel the pilgrim should have a buffed nueting amount to compensate for the rather suicidal range med nuets have.

Even the sentinel gets a range bonus AND amount bonus allowing its effective range with neuts to be 16.3km while a pilgrim with faction neuts is STILL forced into a closer range than that. Does that make sense?


I dont see why the greater range is so overpowering with cov ops cloak. If it is tackling anything it is still going to need to be in tackle range. If its in a fleet fight its not going to be able to use its cloak very effectively in any case. Maybe in some specific circumstances like solo camping a large bubble in 0.0 or something there might be an effect idk. The ranges that matter in eve are tackle ranges, so long point range and web/scram range. Currently a pilgrim needs to come close enough to the latter that overloading, gang bonus etc will see it caught.

The specific occaission the longer range neut is useful is in blops drops. Defacto blops hunter is arazu, tackles and damps target at 50k, drops bombers with supporting rapier to web and paint/falcons to reduce reduce dps -> profit. the pilgrim who wants to be a part of the blops fleet is either not going to be using is neuts or burning to enemy who will either be dead when he gets there if its a blob drop (pointless pilgrim) or fighting back hard if its a hot drop (dead pilgrim). Of course you could use the pilgrim as hunter but then if you are to use the neuts you will be dropping your bombers in tackle range and thus is suicide for hot drops (fine for blob drops). That leaves the pilgrim hunter only really useful for dropping black ops bs at which point many will have heavy neuts in those spare highs already rendering the pilgrims neuts a bit redundant.
uyguhb
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#34 - 2013-07-24 19:35:05 UTC  |  Edited by: uyguhb
spot on good sir. as someone who regularly chooses from stealth bombers,recons, covert T3's ,Black ops battleships to go hunting with my bros. i can confirm that is EXACTLY why i choose any other ship over the pilgrim. i love running around in crucifiers annoying people at great range. but tracking disruption is merely a secondary reason for bringing a pilgrim.
Doddy
Excidium.
#35 - 2013-07-24 19:42:22 UTC
uyguhb wrote:
well the ahac changes were pretty underwhelming so i wasnt expecting alot of changes effective range wise to the recons. or at least im hoping. in my honest opinion the recon ships are just fine. they dont have impressive tanks, or dps, purely a bonused effective range/superior ewar. while stealth bombers can pump out much more dps with even more fragile tanks. So i feel that recons are completely fine in the role they have. And function well when paired with other specialized covert ships. roaming solo they are not so impressive. but can still defend themselves in various ways.



They already said t2 ships are to be specialsed, and they specialised the t1 disruption cruisers that lead to recons. I am pretty sure combat recons will have 3 or even 4 ewar bonuses compared to the current 2 and force recons will be the same if they change the cpu use bonus to a role bonus (it nerfs lower sp players too much for ccps liking in my view). The main difference between the two will be the combats will have better tanks while the force recons have the cloaks/cynos etc. i imagine (speculation only) something like;

Minmatar recons - 2 tp bonus, 1 web bonus, 1 damage bonus
Gallente recons - 2 damp bonus, 1 point bonus, 1 damage bonus
Amarr Recons - 2 neut bonus, 1 td bonus, 1 damage bonus
Caldari Recons - 2 ecmbonus ("because of falcon" or would be 3), 2 damage bonus.
Aliventi
Rattini Tribe
Minmatar Fleet Alliance
#36 - 2013-07-24 19:44:41 UTC
You are still ignoring the fact that the pilgrim has so many get out of jail free cards. Your entire premise for why the pilgrim should be changed is because it is unique in the way it operates and we can't have that. All of the other recon/SB ships on the field get a bonus to range because they either can't get rid of a point (SBs) or handle a H/dictor (the other 3 recons).

You even said the two most important things you need in a fight flying a pilgrim is TD and neuts. And still you want to get rid of med neuts that are each more powerful than an unbonused heavy neut. You are taking a vast majority of the power, some of the get out of jail free cards, and the uniqueness of the pilgrim away because you can't seem to figure out how to fly the pilgrim in a way that reduces your chances of losing it. It isn't hard. I told you exactly how to do it.

Also, linking 2 evekill BRs is not posting with your main. NC. does counter drop often enough. However we don't put together titan bridge fleets on standby in case some ratter or gate camper gets tackled. The reason the Pilgrim has a drone bonus is because the Arbitrator has a drone bonus. The reason the Arazu and Falcon don't have a DPS bonus is their T1 counterpart doesn't have a DPS bonus. You can't lose what you never had. Also, being in close doesn't reduce the effectiveness of tracking disruptors.

If you want this to happen you need to change the Cruicifier and Sentinel T1 bonus to range and make the T2 bonus on the Sentinel to neut effectiveness. Then change the Arbitrator's drone bonus to a neut range bonus. This will allow the neut range bonus to be carried over to the Curse/Pilgrim. Then change the Curse's T2 neut range bonus to the previous drone damage bonus. The pilgrim loses the drone damage bonus to its cloaking bonus. This way one of the T1 bonuses for Amarr is neut range (cruicifier, dragoon, arbitrator, and Armageddon all share it) and the neut effectiveness bonus is the T2 Amarr ship bonus (Sentinel, Curse and Pilgrim all share it.) All told the only ship that changes in the cruicifier loses its neut effectiveness for neut range. Now that is an argument that makes sense and is actually debatable.
uyguhb
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#37 - 2013-07-24 19:58:56 UTC  |  Edited by: uyguhb
welcome back. also i love you, makin me feel smart over here Big smile

every other recon INCLUDING the falcon get a damage bonus (med hybrid 5%) so i would suggest logging into the game before trying to act like you understand what bonuses ships have....

also why do i need to post on my main ? great thing about posting anonymously is that the conversation stays about the main topic rather than you attempting to derail the debate every 20 minutes Big smile

and please continue to prove my point, you are arguing that its a beasty close range brawling ship already. then why does it have a covert cloak??
it fails to achieve what every other t2 recon/bomber/ blops does. That is not specialization at all and is mostly a usless version of the curse.
uyguhb
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#38 - 2013-07-24 20:24:22 UTC  |  Edited by: uyguhb
also my argument is not that the pilgrim is unique because that is just false.
If the pilgrim was unique it would have a better bonus to range and/or better bonus to neut amount giving me a reason to bring a neut focused pilgrim rather than a arazu / falcon / rapier with med neuts.
if that meant reducing the effectiveness of my beloved tracking disruptors and drones i would be fine with that.
Because right now the pilgrim is the brain damaged twin of the curse that was given a invisible cloak to hide and escape from bad guys assuming it can limp out of the danger zone since its forced into web/scram range

oh and who said tribe was using titans to counter drop? a black ops can create a bridge as well ya know Lol
Doddy
Excidium.
#39 - 2013-07-24 20:42:08 UTC
Aliventi wrote:
You are still ignoring the fact that the pilgrim has so many get out of jail free cards. Your entire premise for why the pilgrim should be changed is because it is unique in the way it operates and we can't have that. All of the other recon/SB ships on the field get a bonus to range because they either can't get rid of a point (SBs) or handle a H/dictor (the other 3 recons).

You even said the two most important things you need in a fight flying a pilgrim is TD and neuts. And still you want to get rid of med neuts that are each more powerful than an unbonused heavy neut. You are taking a vast majority of the power, some of the get out of jail free cards, and the uniqueness of the pilgrim away because you can't seem to figure out how to fly the pilgrim in a way that reduces your chances of losing it. It isn't hard. I told you exactly how to do it.

Also, linking 2 evekill BRs is not posting with your main. NC. does counter drop often enough. However we don't put together titan bridge fleets on standby in case some ratter or gate camper gets tackled. The reason the Pilgrim has a drone bonus is because the Arbitrator has a drone bonus. The reason the Arazu and Falcon don't have a DPS bonus is their T1 counterpart doesn't have a DPS bonus. You can't lose what you never had. Also, being in close doesn't reduce the effectiveness of tracking disruptors.

If you want this to happen you need to change the Cruicifier and Sentinel T1 bonus to range and make the T2 bonus on the Sentinel to neut effectiveness. Then change the Arbitrator's drone bonus to a neut range bonus. This will allow the neut range bonus to be carried over to the Curse/Pilgrim. Then change the Curse's T2 neut range bonus to the previous drone damage bonus. The pilgrim loses the drone damage bonus to its cloaking bonus. This way one of the T1 bonuses for Amarr is neut range (cruicifier, dragoon, arbitrator, and Armageddon all share it) and the neut effectiveness bonus is the T2 Amarr ship bonus (Sentinel, Curse and Pilgrim all share it.) All told the only ship that changes in the cruicifier loses its neut effectiveness for neut range. Now that is an argument that makes sense and is actually debatable.


You are basically saying "because get out of jail free card", you used to fly stabbabonds or something?

No ship should have a get out of jail free card, not that a pilgrims neuts are such a thing anyway unless you are flying solo and want to be able to run away from every fight you start (stabbabonds again) hoping that whoever you attack doesn't have decent cap management and a cap booster.

All the stuff about ship bonuses is you trying to apply some logic you think eve should have. It doesn't. You are wrong on many levels. Arazu and falcon have a damage bonus for a start so idk what you are on. It has it precisely because Celestis only lost its damage bonus recently,so in this case you are wrong about being right. The same is the case with all the other recons. The minmatar got hybrid damage and tp effectiveness from the bellicose (which now has missiles). The Caldari got hybrids and ecm strength (since nerfed) with the rook swapping to missiles. The amarr got the drone bonus and td effectiveness. The difference comes with the t2 bonuses. All recons got a secodary ewar bonus. (point, web, neut amount, ecm range for caldari (at the time). The force recons got their fourth bonus as a cpu reduction bonus for cov ops cloak. Fourth bonus however ccp messed up and gave the curse the op (esp back then) neut range bonus while giving the others a second damage bonus which in the case of huginn and lachesis were for split damage systems from the second bonus and for the rook was a missile velocity bonus instead. this massively better bonus was probably down to tds being very much not flavour of the month back then (there was nanos and 90% webs still).

Being in close does reduce the effectiveness of tracking disruptor when you have to be in web range. Med neuts on pilgrim are stronger than unbonused heavies sure, but only after 12 seconds of neuting (most important 12 secs by far) and of course only at half the range.

All the "need to change" stuff is nonsense as well. Current t2 ships which don't carry over direct bonuses from the t1 - sac, cerb, eagle, deimos, vaga, onyx, phobos, broadsword, all logis (slight difference), arazu, falcon, rook, damnation, nighthawk, all maraduers, all bombers, heretic, flycatcher, all eafs, all cov ops, all non minmatar afs, raptor, malediction, ares, taranis, claw. So like 5 currently work how you say. Ironically pretty mutch the only ship class it initially happned in was recons, but the ecm nerf and the disruption cruiser changes mean it doesn't even apply there any more, except on pilgrim and curse. CCP can put whatever bonus they like on whatever hull they likeand they usually do.

The fact that you don't understand that they could be the most powerful neuts of all but without range they have very limited use is a bit worrying.
Aliventi
Rattini Tribe
Minmatar Fleet Alliance
#40 - 2013-07-24 21:05:22 UTC
Oh come on! I even gave you a bone with how to properly argue this change. Ugh

Oh right. The blackbird lost the heavy missile bonus during the rebalance and the recon rebalance hasn't gone through yet. That is why there is discontinuity. Huh. Turns out I do know what I am talking about.

You are arguing that because a ship is a certain ship class it should have the same bonuses as other ships of the same class. A Raven gets range bonus while a Tempest gets a damage bonus. They are both attack battleships with different bonuses. Under your thinking they should both have the same bonuses. So you can drop the "all ships of the same class should have the same types of bonuses" argument anytime you feel like because CCP has already show that is not how things should be.

You can't change racial ship bonuses because the other races ship bonuses are different. The T2 Amarr ship bonus is neut effectiveness. You can't get rid of the T2 bonus and replace it with a T1 bonus because you don't like/can't figure out how to use the T2 bonus. That isn't how things work when it comes to ship balancing. You can however argue to change the bonuses because it would increase standardization across T1 and T2 Amarr ships.

And the reason it has a covert ops cloak is.... Oh idk... Count it possibly be that a Cov Ops cloak is what makes the ship a force recon? You get the range bonus on the ship that doesn't have the cloak. We call that a Curse and it can't be BlOps bridged. And it is specialization. Its specialization is neut effectiveness. It achieves the exact same things that another recon does. In fact you can argue that it does them better because it can be perfectly safe within point range and has more get out of jail free cards than any other ship on the field.