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Why nerf high sec?

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baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#441 - 2013-07-23 21:18:06 UTC
Dracvlad wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Captain Tardbar wrote:
samualvimes wrote:
It worked for the mining barge buffs.....


Or was it the exit polls of people saying they quit because they lost a ship which happened to be a mining barge?




No it was the 8 months of constant whining from terrible pilots who refused to fit a tank.


Wow, some of us who liked to be hard to kill hated mining ships which had the tank of a wet paper bag, I tanked mine and still couldn't get a good tank, and I felt it was frankly quite stupid to have a ship that cost so much that could be killed by a single destroyer and the pilot podded too with a tank fitted. So CCP in the end did the right thing, now people who don't fit a tank die to small numbers of destroyers, and those of us that tank laugh at them dying and know that to get a kill the gankers have to work on it, which is why so many gank industrials. Before the changes it was like taking candy from a baby and to be blunt was so easy it was silly.

I like a challenge in a game, other people like easy no effort kills and mining barges before these changes were the most easy kills you could get in game. The game is a lot better for it and teh tanks are about right, by the way I mine in a Skiff, a fully tanked one...


Exhumers could get a 25k ehp tank and have room for an MLU. It wasn't profitable to gank after 15k.

CCP did the wrong thing because they gave us a horribly unbalanced barge line-up and simply replaced king hulk with king retriever.
Captain Tardbar
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#442 - 2013-07-23 21:29:36 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Exhumers could get a 25k ehp tank and have room for an MLU. It wasn't profitable to gank after 15k.

CCP did the wrong thing because they gave us a horribly unbalanced barge line-up and simply replaced king hulk with king retriever.


Wait what? [turns troll mode off] I have 26K EHP on an anti-gank fitting on Mackinaw as of now. And this is a full on tank with only one MLU and this is now. Not then.

I really doubt what you say was true before the buff.

Looking to talk on VOIP with other EVE players? Are you new and need help with EVE (welfare) or looking for advice? Looking for adversarial debate with angry people?

Captain Tardbar's Voice Discord Server
Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
#443 - 2013-07-23 21:36:56 UTC
Manfred Hideous wrote:
Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:
Captain Tardbar wrote:
What should really grind your gears is that when I meet a new player who wants help in NPC corps, I bring him under my wing and teach him to be a career high-sec miner with all my other high-sec mining buddies.

We teach him things like how to fit a proper tank so he's never ganked, how to avoid scams, and how to avoid ever going to low-sec for any reason at all.

Then that means one more player who lives the hi-sec lifestyle and enjoys it. We've even recruited people off teamspeak servers who have never played EVE until we gave them a buddy code.




You want to grind them harder, teach them to roll an alt in another slot, train up for gank dessies or bombers, and make incursions into nullsec. Not to live there, not to be cannon fodder, but to mix things up a bit and poke the pokers back.


Oh NOES!!!11eleventy! Not T-1 dessies!

You do realize that people would more likely thank you than feel like you're grinding their gears, right?




Actually, the current endeavor for a nullsec incursion is bringing nothing but complaints and general butthurt. My God, nullsec is full of bears.


Bring back DEEEEP Space!
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#444 - 2013-07-24 07:43:01 UTC
Captain Tardbar wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Exhumers could get a 25k ehp tank and have room for an MLU. It wasn't profitable to gank after 15k.

CCP did the wrong thing because they gave us a horribly unbalanced barge line-up and simply replaced king hulk with king retriever.


Wait what? [turns troll mode off] I have 26K EHP on an anti-gank fitting on Mackinaw as of now. And this is a full on tank with only one MLU and this is now. Not then.

I really doubt what you say was true before the buff.


Before we did the ice intedictions we had to find out the best way to kill miners and so, worked on how to best tank barges and exhumers so we would know what to use and when. The mack would top out at 25k. The hulk got 32k. The covetor got 25k and the skiff also got up to 32k. The retriver and procurer were in a bad shape and did need buffing.

What we got with the buff was the hulk and covetor unwanted, the skiff and procurer being pointless, the mack being an expensive retriver and shunned and the new king of miners the retriver flying around untanked and thus, profitable to kill still.

So, in the end we ended up with an even more unbalanced barge lineup.
Victoria Sin
Doomheim
#445 - 2013-07-24 07:56:55 UTC
baltec1 wrote:

What we got with the buff was the hulk and covetor unwanted, the skiff and procurer being pointless, the mack being an expensive retriver and shunned and the new king of miners the retriver flying around untanked and thus, profitable to kill still.

So, in the end we ended up with an even more unbalanced barge lineup.


Barges were balanced for null, not high sec. If ret is the barge of choice in high, I would say working as intended.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#446 - 2013-07-24 08:01:49 UTC
Victoria Sin wrote:


Barges were balanced for null, not high sec. If ret is the barge of choice in high, I would say working as intended.


No they wernt balanced for null, if they were then the skiff would have kept its built in warp stab.
Victoria Sin
Doomheim
#447 - 2013-07-24 08:12:45 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Victoria Sin wrote:


Barges were balanced for null, not high sec. If ret is the barge of choice in high, I would say working as intended.


No they wernt balanced for null, if they were then the skiff would have kept its built in warp stab.


Nope. CCP give the player the choice. You can stab it if you want, or you can MLU it for max yield, or you can nano if you want good GTFO ability. No need for a built in +1.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#448 - 2013-07-24 08:18:59 UTC
Victoria Sin wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Victoria Sin wrote:


Barges were balanced for null, not high sec. If ret is the barge of choice in high, I would say working as intended.


No they wernt balanced for null, if they were then the skiff would have kept its built in warp stab.


Nope. CCP give the player the choice. You can stab it if you want, or you can MLU it for max yield, or you can nano if you want good GTFO ability. No need for a built in +1.



Still wern't balanced for null. The devs were very clear on their aim of making them more gank resistant and giving them "roles" to play. There was never a goal of balancing them for null.
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#449 - 2013-07-24 08:32:43 UTC
The problem with hi-sec isn't that income is capped too high but that risk is capped too low.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#450 - 2013-07-24 08:49:05 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
The problem with hi-sec isn't that income is capped too high but that risk is capped too low.


There are gankers, flying around expensive cargo is always a high risk, flying a Transport ship out of Jita 4-4 is high risk, with the CFC flying even an empty freighter is risky, flying an untanked barge or exhumer is risky, flying blinged Tengu's is a risk, then you can get war decced, you can accept a duel and find multiple people on that duel, that is now high risk, you can have kill rights activated on you at the worst possible time, risk.

In terms of incursions, I was talking to one mate two minutes after a fleet mate had his bling fitted incrusion runner blown up by targetted ganking, that is a risk.

The risk for Transport ships is so great that if I buy one in a hub I go pick it up with an Orca.

Malcanis do you even play in HS?

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp
GetSirrus
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#451 - 2013-07-24 08:55:14 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
The covetor got 25k


I am really curious for that one. 2 lows and a single mid - 25k ehp?
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#452 - 2013-07-24 08:57:23 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Victoria Sin wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Victoria Sin wrote:


Barges were balanced for null, not high sec. If ret is the barge of choice in high, I would say working as intended.


No they wernt balanced for null, if they were then the skiff would have kept its built in warp stab.


Nope. CCP give the player the choice. You can stab it if you want, or you can MLU it for max yield, or you can nano if you want good GTFO ability. No need for a built in +1.



Still wern't balanced for null. The devs were very clear on their aim of making them more gank resistant and giving them "roles" to play. There was never a goal of balancing them for null.


That is correct, and as one who complained at CCP about the rubbish tanks on pre-buff ships I am happy with the changes, though I suggested that they buff the structure points. CCP quite rightly decided to make it so people could decide to fit for yield or tank, so the gankers still had prey, but those of us who hated being in ships that were so easy to kill could do something about it.

In terms of the Skiff, its fast and can warp out very fast, great tank, personally I would like the +2 too, but for 0.0 I like the GTFO quick because I used a scout to move it around.

As a Goon don't you find it better that they are at least a challenge?

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#453 - 2013-07-24 09:03:48 UTC
Dracvlad wrote:


Malcanis do you even play in HS?



We hit less than 0.001% of all freighter traffic a month.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#454 - 2013-07-24 09:06:47 UTC  |  Edited by: baltec1
Dracvlad wrote:


As a Goon don't you find it better that they are at least a challenge?


Catch one and its only a matter of grinding through the EHP.

And given that anything can be aligned there just isnt any point in having a huge tank because if cought its going to die anyway. Your better off in a retriver or mack.

In high sec the mack is unprofitable to gank just by putting on a suitcase so the skiffs huge tank is just not needed. Its a pointless ship.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#455 - 2013-07-24 09:08:18 UTC
GetSirrus wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
The covetor got 25k


I am really curious for that one. 2 lows and a single mid - 25k ehp?


Tank it vs catalyst and use all the slots for tank.
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#456 - 2013-07-24 09:08:20 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:


Malcanis do you even play in HS?



We hit less than 0.001% of all freighter traffic a month.


Maybe, but you guys are very good at killing freighters and at times you go on killing sprees based around your scurity status, so at times it is high risk, also you ply this trade in certain systems that you have to use, like Uedama. So moving stuff around which does not require using those systems is low risk, but moving through those bottleneck systems is high risk, especially around certain TZ's.

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#457 - 2013-07-24 09:10:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Dracvlad
baltec1 wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:


As a Goon don't you find it better that they are at least a challenge?


Catch one and its only a matter of gringing through the EHP.

And given that anything can be aligned there just isnt any point in having a huge tank because if cought its going to die anyway. Your better off in a retriver or mack.


The Skiff has a huge tank for HS, and for low/0.0 it has quick warp out, the tank also enables you to survive long enough for help, of course people don't have Falcon alts cloaked above their mining ships do they Big smile

You cannot get 25k EHP on a Coveter...

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#458 - 2013-07-24 09:14:41 UTC
Dracvlad wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:


Malcanis do you even play in HS?



We hit less than 0.001% of all freighter traffic a month.


Maybe, but you guys are very good at killing freighters and at times you go on killing sprees based around your scurity status, so at times it is high risk, also you ply this trade in certain systems that you have to use, like Uedama. So moving stuff around which does not require using those systems is low risk, but moving through those bottleneck systems is high risk, especially around certain TZ's.


Its zero risk unless you have 10 billion in the hold. Out of the hundreds of thousands (it is more likely over a million) of trips made by freighters a month only a few dosen get ganked.

Not exactly high risk now is it?
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#459 - 2013-07-24 09:16:55 UTC
Dracvlad wrote:


The Skiff has a huge tank for HS, and for low/0.0 it has quick warp out, the tank also enables you to survive long enough for help, of course people don't have Falcon alts cloaked above their mining ships do they Big smile

You cannot get 25k EHP on a Coveter...


Or just keep a mack aligned and mine more. There really isn't any reason to fly the skiff over the mack or retriver.
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#460 - 2013-07-24 09:17:33 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:


Malcanis do you even play in HS?



We hit less than 0.001% of all freighter traffic a month.


Maybe, but you guys are very good at killing freighters and at times you go on killing sprees based around your scurity status, so at times it is high risk, also you ply this trade in certain systems that you have to use, like Uedama. So moving stuff around which does not require using those systems is low risk, but moving through those bottleneck systems is high risk, especially around certain TZ's.


Its zero risk unless you have 10 billion in the hold. Out of the hundreds of thousands (it is more likely over a million) of trips made by freighters a month only a few dosen get ganked.

Not exactly high risk now is it?


Well I know someone who was in EXE and his out of alliance freighter alt was popped by the CFC empty in one of those bottleneck systems, he made the assunption that being empty would be safe, so was on autopilot, and it was not even burn Jita.

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp