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Why would anyone fly a Vargur?

Author
Tsukino Stareine
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#101 - 2013-07-23 15:21:22 UTC
hmskrecik wrote:
Tsukino Stareine wrote:
Which is not a fact, it's your opinion which numbers do not support.

Time to complete the mission is opinion? Tick value is opinion? I am not talking about anything else.

Sorry, it's going nowhere... Fly safe.


It's an opinion because you have nothing concrete to back it up, no numbers, no screenshots, no videos, not even any theory to counter the numbers I gave you earlier in the thread.

If the vargur truly is faster than a domi, it would be easy to say why with the numbers to support that claim.

You said you were even better than me at numbers, time to show it.
hmskrecik
TransMine Group
Gluten Free Cartel
#102 - 2013-07-23 15:31:45 UTC
Tsukino Stareine wrote:

It's an opinion because you have nothing concrete to back it up, no numbers, no screenshots, no videos, not even any theory to counter the numbers I gave you earlier in the thread.

If the vargur truly is faster than a domi, it would be easy to say why with the numbers to support that claim.

You said you were even better than me at numbers, time to show it.

Actually, I was first asking you to show those numbers, when you claimed that Dominix performs better than a Vargur.

But okay. First, I had already mentioned Vargur completes missions about 15% faster. Just latest example: Serpentis Extravaganza. Domi can't beat it under 20 minutes, on couple of runs I completed it in 21 or 22 minutes. Meanwhile Vargur always gets below and just recently I run it in totally lazy mode (sitting at gate, shooting around) and finished in 17 minutes.

Ticks. On good missions Vargur never gets less than 12 million a tick, getting 14 or 15 is not uncommon. Domi gets 10 million on a good day, in rare cases closing to 12.

I may be flying Domi wrong, waiting for your input how should I, but Kronos and Vindicator both are somewhere between those ranges, with Vindicator being quite close to Vargur but still not there.
Tsukino Stareine
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#103 - 2013-07-23 15:37:58 UTC
These could be made up times for all I know, when I say numbers I mean cold hard facts based on the ship fitting and practical tactics.
hmskrecik
TransMine Group
Gluten Free Cartel
#104 - 2013-07-23 16:35:26 UTC  |  Edited by: hmskrecik
If the reality does not conform to the theory then the reality must be wrong, eh?

You know, I don't care. You refuse to be convinced and it is your own problem. Cheers.

Edit: on second thought, last try. You accuse me of making numbers up and yet at the same time you yourself didn't provide any in-game hard data. What argument could convince you that Vargur is indeed one of the top performing ships?
Enduros
UK Corp
Goonswarm Federation
#105 - 2013-07-23 22:16:57 UTC
What a dumb thread. Do people own or can actually fly any of these ships? And do they fly them in missions/anoms?

If you count isk/h then varg outperforms mach by a large margin. I owned both and fly just the Varg.

DPS difference about 100
1/3 of the money comes from loot+salvage. If you loot as you shoot you are more efficient.
Varg has better tracking and can switch TC scripts for even more tracking when you have a bunch of cruisers around you.
Varg has better tank. Plenty of missions require tank or optionally aggro everything to make spawns come closer.

And why are you bringing domi into this? Only thing I use my domi/rattle for is some guristas missions. Other then that the "potential 1200+dps" doesn't go far as you will have gates on missions and also you gonna need to go retrieve something from a wreck 40km away. When you are doing anoms domi is pretty hard to beat, but in missions no so much.

Also shooting anything outside 48km is wasting money since you can tractor the wreck. Got a domi fit for 140km sentry optimal for running smash the supplier because they do lots of dps and they disrupt and I think some neuting happens too. Really the only mish that is better from range. Rest can be shot at from up close or while approaching next gate.

Speaking of anoms... varg wins because there you actually do need tank if you running sanctums and you have utility highs for a cloak or a cyno or a probe launcher(this was needed back in the day). You also have bigger hull and use less ammo means you don't need to visit station/pos that often
NightmareX
Pandemic Horde High Sec Division
#106 - 2013-07-23 23:51:36 UTC  |  Edited by: NightmareX
Now i'm not an expert in doing level 4 missions, but isk/h isn't what everything is for me.

Before i can continue to do level 4 missions for a long long time, i need to have fun in the missions. If missions gets boring, then i will end up by not doing any missions.

So like 2 years ago, i went out to Jita to buy me a Loki, yes a freaking Loki to do level 4 missions in.

That ship was not a good ship for isk/h, but it was for sure a damn fun ship to use in level 4 missions. And the fun part of it did keep me to do level 4 missions for a long time.

After a while, i needed a change, so i went to do PVP. I did that for a long time. But now, i'm back to doing level 4 missions again for a while.

The ship i'm using now is the Vargur. And in all of those years i have been doing missions, the Vargur is the best Battleship sized ship i have used in level 4 missions.

With the tractor beam and the salvager, i can earn alot of isks by salvaging and looting the wrecks of the npc's while i kill the npcs / do the missions.

Sure, other ships might earn more isk per hour than the Vargur, but it might be much harder work for it and it might even be deadly boring. With the Vargur, i can easily do the level 4 missions alone and still earning alot of isks while having fun.

So it's the whole package in how the ship works in every missions that keeps me to the Vargur. It's a very great level 4 missions ship and i will keep using it until i can find another ship that can do the level 4 missions as easy as i do them now, or easier while still earning the same amount i can earn now each hours or better.

EDIT: My Vargur is pretty good fitted, so i don't have to care about what npc's i aggro. Triggering a full aggro is always fun with the Vargur i have, because it can tank every level 4 missions that are in EVE Online and even more than that.

Here is a list of my current EVE / PVP videos:

1: Asteroid Madness

2: Clash of the Empires

3: Suddenly Spaceships fighting in Tama

Sheva Onnlin
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#107 - 2013-07-25 05:37:56 UTC
I'll borrow this thread for my question:

I do my pve by ratting Sanshas in 0.0 with this ship (Forsaken and Forlorn Hubs only atm):

[Apocalypse Navy Issue, ratting]
Heat Sink II
Heat Sink II
Heat Sink II
Heat Sink II
Armor EM Hardener II
Armor EM Hardener II
Armor Thermic Hardener II
True Sansha Large Armor Repairer

Cap Recharger II
Experimental 100MN Afterburner I
Optical Tracking Computer I, Optimal Range Script
Optical Tracking Computer I, Optimal Range Script

Mega Modulated Pulse Energy Beam I, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Mega Modulated Pulse Energy Beam I, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Mega Modulated Pulse Energy Beam I, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Mega Modulated Pulse Energy Beam I, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Mega Modulated Pulse Energy Beam I, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Mega Modulated Pulse Energy Beam I, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Mega Modulated Pulse Energy Beam I, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Mega Modulated Pulse Energy Beam I, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L

Large Semiconductor Memory Cell I
Large Semiconductor Memory Cell I
Large Semiconductor Memory Cell I


Hobgoblin II x5
Hammerhead II x5
Salvage Drone I x5



It works great, even though I still have T1 guns. I'd like to work on a ship that can salvage while dpsing, which makes a Marauder the obvious choice. I guess Paladin would make the best choice for Sansha space.

However my character is Minmatar, so for lore reasons (don't laugh), I'd like to fly a minmatar ship instead. Additionally, while lasers are cool in Amarr space, I'd feel more flexible in a projectile boat in case I'd need to bail out of Sansha space in the future. After all, Marauder is a long-term investment both in skills and in isk. Guns aren't a problem here, I can have both lasers and projectiles up to T2 in about 20 days each.

I'm wondering: First, how much slower would I be in a Vargur instead of a Paladin? A small difference, say, 10% would be fine, much more than that Iand I'd just stick with Amarr ships. Second, provided I choose a projectile ship, what can I possibly choose? I've been trying to EFT fit a Maelstrom, Fleet Tempest and even Fleet Typhoon, yet they all seem to come far short dps-wise even compared to my poor Apocalypse. Am I missing something or are Amarr ships really overwhelmingly better against Sanshas, especially once you cross into navy ship territory?

Note: I'm not including Machariel or Nightmare into the comparison, because my end goal is a ship that can dps and salvage at the same time, so no "fly a Mach" comments please.
Paikis
Vapour Holdings
#108 - 2013-07-25 05:51:09 UTC
Sheva Onnlin wrote:
Am I missing something or are Amarr ships really overwhelmingly better against Sanshas, especially once you cross into navy ship territory?


Nope, you're not missing anything. The Paladin and/or Nightmare really are THAT GOOD against Sanshas. Nothing else comes close, although you could argue for the Raven Navy Issue.
Shereza
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#109 - 2013-07-25 07:10:59 UTC
The redeemer's almost as good as the paladin for Sansha, Blood Raider, and rogue drone NPCs, roughly equal for Serpentis, EoM, Mordus, and mercenaries, and better for Angel and Guristas NPCs. It might be a black ops ship, but its got bonuses and a drone bay that make it worth taking into consideration.
Hypercake Mix
#110 - 2013-07-25 08:25:12 UTC
Because sometimes, you just want to XL-ASB as hard as possible.
Paikis
Vapour Holdings
#111 - 2013-07-25 10:47:04 UTC
Shereza wrote:
The redeemer's almost as good as the paladin for Sansha, Blood Raider, and rogue drone NPCs, roughly equal for Serpentis, EoM, Mordus, and mercenaries, and better for Angel and Guristas NPCs. It might be a black ops ship, but its got bonuses and a drone bay that make it worth taking into consideration.


It really isn't.
Tsukino Stareine
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#112 - 2013-07-25 12:45:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Tsukino Stareine
Paikis wrote:
Sheva Onnlin wrote:
Am I missing something or are Amarr ships really overwhelmingly better against Sanshas, especially once you cross into navy ship territory?


Nope, you're not missing anything. The Paladin and/or Nightmare really are THAT GOOD against Sanshas. Nothing else comes close, although you could argue for the Raven Navy Issue.


I think a laser domi would give them a good run for their money

hmskrecik wrote:
If the reality does not conform to the theory then the reality must be wrong, eh?

You know, I don't care. You refuse to be convinced and it is your own problem. Cheers.

Edit: on second thought, last try. You accuse me of making numbers up and yet at the same time you yourself didn't provide any in-game hard data. What argument could convince you that Vargur is indeed one of the top performing ships?



I gave very real numbers from ship statistics based on real fittings and used them in very real context.

All you have done is said "vargur does this in x minutes"
Bigg Gun
T.I.E. Inc.
#113 - 2013-07-25 14:41:11 UTC
Vargur is da bomb ! It's like a mach with more tracking and more tank , except slower. Mach is the best out there for pve. Varg is a more tamer fatter and yet more refined version of the mach.
hmskrecik
TransMine Group
Gluten Free Cartel
#114 - 2013-07-25 16:27:51 UTC
Tsukino Stareine wrote:
I gave very real numbers from ship statistics based on real fittings and used them in very real context.

All you have done is said "vargur does this in x minutes"

You gave EFT stats. I gave in-game performance measures.
Tsukino Stareine
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#115 - 2013-07-25 16:53:38 UTC
hmskrecik wrote:
Tsukino Stareine wrote:
I gave very real numbers from ship statistics based on real fittings and used them in very real context.

All you have done is said "vargur does this in x minutes"

You gave EFT stats. I gave in-game performance measures.


EFT stats don't lie

You have no evidence at all of what you said.
hmskrecik
TransMine Group
Gluten Free Cartel
#116 - 2013-07-26 07:56:34 UTC
Tsukino Stareine wrote:
hmskrecik wrote:
Tsukino Stareine wrote:
I gave very real numbers from ship statistics based on real fittings and used them in very real context.

All you have done is said "vargur does this in x minutes"

You gave EFT stats. I gave in-game performance measures.


EFT stats don't lie

You have no evidence at all of what you said.

I never said they lie. But they can be misleading.

If my, and others', word is not an evidence to you then what is?
Caitlyn Tufy
Perkone
Caldari State
#117 - 2013-07-26 08:28:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Caitlyn Tufy
Tsukino Stareine wrote:
EFT stats don’t lie


Only if you read them right. Too many people compare raw dps, failing to grasp that the actual applied dps may be a problem. For instance, Dominix has to use Gardes to realize full dps potential. As soon as it uses non-Garde drones, the dps drops, whereas Vargur can do explosive, thermic and EM pretty much equally. Next, Domi’s sentries have an amazing tracking thanks to the ship’s hull bonuses, but they’re still standing still. This means that a Domi pilot has no way to compensate for the angular velocity, whereas a good Vargur pilot will modify his angle and continue pounding the target. On the other hand, Vargur will always fight in falloff due to AC’s anemic optimal, so it’ll have a very hard time applying its potential damage (read: it practically can’t happen). This means that the Vargur (assuming a good pilot, of course) will have superior applied dps out to about 35 km, against small targets and targets with large angular velocity.

Assumed fits:

Domi - shield fit*, faction MFS, 5x railguns with short range ammo, Garde II
Vargur - faction Gyros and Enhancers, 800mm ACs with short range ammo, hammerhead drones.

*note: the reason I picked the shield fit is higher potential dps, which lowers the tracking due to no omidirectional tracking links. The end result with armor fit was lower dps than Vargur in nearly every situation under 40km. Note that high slot guns are an absolute must to compete with the minmatar marauder.

Target simulations: sansha battleship, angel cruiser, guristas frigate
Tsukino Stareine
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#118 - 2013-07-26 10:57:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Tsukino Stareine
Yes you are right and that's why I'm confident when I say the domi is better: because I know how to read EFT and use it's DPS graph feature.

Realistically you will never use medium drones on a vargur, you have no bonuses to them so they are very frail and slow and will be toasted very quickly unless you only use them on targets close to you, which then brings up the point: since they are slow and have to travel and you can only use them in certain situations, can you even count them into your DPS?

As for sentry changes, you generally use gardes for everything except angels, bouncers only do 100 less DPS than gardes.

And your fits are a prime example of people who cannot import EFT fits into a real situation, you would never use short range ammo on a sentry sniping fit, your drones hit out to 80km, so do your guns. Spike only.

Quote:
Assuming no implants

Domi does 880 fully projected DPS to 87km of which 800 is immune to any kind of ewar (same thing cannot be said for varg)

Varg does a hilarious 450 dps with barrage at the same range so in fact a MWD is almost a requirement to flying one efficiently since it's not got the high base speed of a mach to make use of a deadspace 100mn AB.

The varg using faction short range projectile only starts breaking even with the domi at 27km, every single level 4 mission has spawns further than 27km.

Even if I use the most expensive implants available (pashans, +6%s) the varg still only breaks even at 40km

Adding a flight of lights (good luck with mediums not being blown up) it brings it up to 48km though that's still debatable whether or not they will survive that far out.

Now since the varg goes about 1.1kms that means you are regularly having to re-align and fly to your target to apply similar DPS the domi can at 87km


These are the numbers I specifically extracted for this situation and used fits that were capable and viable.

I think the domi I used in this simulation had 2 DLAs and 4x 1200mm artillery. I posted other fits in another thread where the domi can easily push 1k DPS at 70km+ ranges which honestly the vargur should be ashamed of.

oh and remember that 48km figure was comparing a domi with 0 implants with a vargur pilot with a 5bil clone ;)
hmskrecik
TransMine Group
Gluten Free Cartel
#119 - 2013-07-26 11:04:41 UTC
Tsukino Stareine wrote:
Yes you are right and that's why I'm confident when I say the domi is better: because I know how to read EFT and use it's DPS graph feature.

Which allows you to safely ignore any empirical evidence. Oh well...

Quote:
I think the domi I used in this simulation had 2 DLAs and 4x 1200mm artillery. I posted other fits in another thread where the domi can easily push 1k DPS at 70km+ ranges which honestly the vargur should be ashamed of.

The only thing the Vargur can be ashamed of is its pilot.

I give up.
Tsukino Stareine
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#120 - 2013-07-26 11:10:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Tsukino Stareine
hmskrecik wrote:
Tsukino Stareine wrote:
Yes you are right and that's why I'm confident when I say the domi is better: because I know how to read EFT and use it's DPS graph feature.

Which allows you to safely ignore any empirical evidence. Oh well...

Quote:
I think the domi I used in this simulation had 2 DLAs and 4x 1200mm artillery. I posted other fits in another thread where the domi can easily push 1k DPS at 70km+ ranges which honestly the vargur should be ashamed of.

The only thing the Vargur can be ashamed of is its pilot.

I give up.


Do you even know what empirical means? Something has to be observed or experienced and because you have 0 evidence of anything at all what you are doing actually is straight up fabricated. The evidence I provided with simulation has every factor taken into account, you are free to challenge any point which you feel has not been addressed fully, in fact I encourage it since it will inject some credibility into your posts.

And yes I know you can't come up with a good rebuttal after you've realised the domi can pull those kind of numbers, it's ok marauders might be buffed in the next few years.