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[Odyssey 1.1] Heavy Assault Cruisers

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M1k3y Koontz
Speaker for the Dead
Shadow Cartel
#1421 - 2013-07-23 19:26:38 UTC  |  Edited by: M1k3y Koontz
Covert DPS is covered by Bombers and BLOPs battleships, Ewar is covered by Recons, EAFs.

I think the best roll for HACs would be beefed up versions of the T1 cruisers, only with a roll bonus that makes them better at brawling or kiting.


Edit: The heat damage bonus... that's an interesting one. It's not a bad idea, maybe put that on the brawling HACs, and do the -80% MWD sig bloom on the kiters?

How much herp could a herp derp derp if a herp derp could herp derp.
Marcel Devereux
Aideron Robotics
Aideron Robotics.
#1422 - 2013-07-23 19:27:13 UTC
Syrias Bizniz wrote:
Personal thoughts:


Maybe scratch the idea of having 8 heavy assault cruisers, 2 per race, rename the skill into 'Assault Cruisers' and offer 2 lines of them: Heavy Assault cruisers and Light Assault cruisers.

Heavy Assault Cruisers are more meant for the hard work, like Sacrileges for example. Sturdy, but kind of slow ships designed for brawling with good to excellent damage output.

Light Assault cruisers more suited towards skirmishing, focusing on mobility, significantly less dps, but by far better in application.

For example a (very unique) bonus like 'x% reduction to Medium [blah] Turret Signature Resolution'. I'm not sure about the math how this is basically just a tracking bonus or something different, but i just don't like the idea of having 8 ships in the more or less same role that already partially are outperformed by other ships.

For example, the Ishtar. It has 125mbit of Drones on a cruiserhull, which is outstanding, but then again, the Navy Vexor and Gila do offer the same only without Tech 2 Resistances and a different slotlayout.



So basically, a new lineup might look like the following:

Heavy Assault Cruisers:
-Sacrilege | HAM Brawler with Missile Explosion Radius instead of capacitor bonus / mwd capacitor bonus?
-Muninn | sturdy artillery Platform for medium to long range engagements / Dmg bonuses, Optimum Bonuses, Tracking Bonuses
-Eagle | sturdy Rail-Platform for medium to long range engagements.
-Ishtar | Drone Brawler, possibly with a huge chunk of mobility (mwd speed) towards heavy drones?

These cruisers would have heavy dps potential and be quite tanky, but lack a lot of mobility and maneuverbility of Light Assault cruisers. Basically, Battlecruisers with smaller sig and similar tanks. 550-600 DPS heated might be a good spot for the long rangers, ~650-700 for the brawlers. Amarr / Caldari with resistance bonus, Gallente / Minmatar with Hitpoint-Bonus?


Light Assault Cruisers:

Zealot | Laser DPS, long range (Scorching to 50-55, maybe?)
Vagabond | Autocannon ship for close range engagements, very good tracking, AB bonus?
Cerberus | HAM / RLM for close range, AB bonus?
Deimos | Rail DPS, long range

These cruisers would have normal cruiser dps potential, but with a lot more mobility and survivability.

Contrary to the Heavy Assault cruisers, the ranges have just switched. Amarr and Gallente for ranging, minmatar and caldari for brawling. Basically, their tanking potential would be lower than that of the HAC lineup, with 40-45k ehp maybe, but combined with good mobility on afterburners and small signatures for the brawlers (90-100m sig, 800m/s with AB?)

Their damage application would be threatening to frigs, but the maximum DPS somewhere around 300-400 dps.



General concept: Long Range Cruisers (Amarr & Gallente LAC, Minmatar & Caldari HAC) get the mwd signature bonus, Close Range Cruisers get Afterburner Speed Bonus.

HAC have huge sig (120-140), LAC have small sig (90-100).

HAC have high damage potential but can't really apply on small targets, LAC have mediocore damage but CAN apply it to small targets


I think the words you are looking for are Heavy Attack Cruiser (HAC) and Heavy Combat Cruiser (HCC (hiss?)). And if Fozzie was doing this, we would see the current skill split in two for specialization. He loves adding new skills.
Lucine Delacourt
The Covenant of Blood
#1423 - 2013-07-23 19:31:52 UTC
My first thoughts:

- Double web Deimos seems like it could be better than most are giving it credit for.

- 40% Scout Drone damage per level or something similar instead of the generic 20% drone damage bonus would promote hit and run Ishtar tactics and separate it from the plethora of cruiser/BC sized drone hulls.

- The Sac still seems a bit lackluster, a little more CPU/Cap if you want a Neut or Tinker setup or switch a high for a low if you want it buffered.

- The ASB Vaga will eat faces.

- Zealot is pretty close. Not sure what to do without OPing it.
Chrono Guardia
MuffinMen
#1424 - 2013-07-23 19:38:28 UTC
So I did not read every page, but here are my thoughts on the ishtar as an avid drone user.

Basically the main issue everyone cites is the CPU issue.

I feel that the new +tracking and optimal bonus on the ishtar means that you need to fit one less omnidirectional tracking link, which was meant to lower the fitting. Therefore if the devs felt they wanted to go further they could boost the +5 control range bonus to +10 km which would erase the need to fit drone range augmentors. This would give us the plenty of cpu to fit a full rack of the lightest fitting medium guns.

Also on a random note,
+1 to giving the eagle higher lock range

Chrono
Il Feytid
State War Academy
Caldari State
#1425 - 2013-07-23 19:56:48 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
Hey again

So we had the tournament this weekend and then I was out of the office yesterday. I'm getting started on this topic again today, but as evidenced by this enormous thread, there's plenty to do. I think we will have another CSM review step before getting the new version (which isn't even finished yet) back to you guys. If things go well, I'll have a new pass for you guys by the end of this week, if things go slow it would probably be start of next week.

Thanks for all the feedback and ideas. A lot of you have different ideas about these ships, but hopefully we can distill some good stuff and do a revision that you're all excited about.

Just be careful of the CSM members who have their own personal agenda in mind instead of the player base. Blink
Mole Guy
Bob's Bait and Tackle
#1426 - 2013-07-23 20:09:16 UTC
imo, kiters need a burner bonus to speed. burner zealots are hard to hit. they can keep sig radius down and still do descent top speed.

brawlers need to get in close and stop the ships so they can apply damage,
i think the diemost and ishtar need to trade places. the diemost would be better as a kiter.
the ishtar needs to drop drone and run blaster. all of that requires us to be close.


what we need to do is define the role better.
what are they?

if they are heavy assault vessels, they need to assault things heavily. bc dps.
I'm Down
Macabre Votum
Northern Coalition.
#1427 - 2013-07-23 20:10:38 UTC
nikar galvren wrote:
I'm Down wrote:
nikar galvren wrote:
CCP Rise wrote:
snip


Thanks for listening! I guess now we'll see how closely you're listening... :P

I definitely want to see a HAC lineup that is valid for solo/small gang play style. The downside to that is the probability that anything good enough to solo in will be great to large scale sov-blob in. Too much of that already.


That's not true at all. Go back and read my last post to show exactly how to limit their effectiveness in fleets, but make them very strong solo and small gang ships.


I did. Would you really want to solo in a blaster-fit brawler with -60% range? Is there no conceivable use for a large scale fleet doctrine involving highly mobile, great damage projecting ships?

My point was that ships that are fun to solo/small gang in are *often* strong additions to larger fleet doctrines. There's not really any way around it unless you want to create a niche role that (very) few pilots will ever undock. It's the nature of the meta right now. While I recognize that, I'm not sure what balancing pass would produce a specialized hull that is attractive to fly solo/SG, but less attractive to blobs. It's a tough problem, and I don't envy Rise for having to figure it out.


A high dps blaster ship with more speed and tank in a low sec setting would have no issues at all given proper circumstances and use. It's meant to have a design flaw where it excels at close range damage and a weakness to longer range and kiting. It's called true tradeoff... or more specifically, a role.
M1k3y Koontz
Speaker for the Dead
Shadow Cartel
#1428 - 2013-07-23 20:11:00 UTC
Mole Guy wrote:
imo, kiters need a burner bonus to speed. burner zealots are hard to hit. they can keep sig radius down and still do descent top speed.

brawlers need to get in close and stop the ships so they can apply damage,
i think the diemost and ishtar need to trade places. the diemost would be better as a kiter.
the ishtar needs to drop drone and run blaster. all of that requires us to be close.


what we need to do is define the role better.
what are they?

if they are heavy assault vessels, they need to assault things heavily. bc dps.


Kiting HACs with an afterburner (even with an AB bonus) could be caught by anything smaller than a battleship.
They definitely need an MWD for mobility; and then a sig bonus (higher than 50%, maybe 80) or a reduction in base sig to make them workable.

Definitely BC DPS.

How much herp could a herp derp derp if a herp derp could herp derp.
Maximus Andendare
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
#1429 - 2013-07-23 20:15:22 UTC
Marlona Sky wrote:
CCP Rise wrote:
Hey again

So we had the tournament this weekend and then I was out of the office yesterday. I'm getting started on this topic again today, but as evidenced by this enormous thread, there's plenty to do. I think we will have another CSM review step before getting the new version (which isn't even finished yet) back to you guys. If things go well, I'll have a new pass for you guys by the end of this week, if things go slow it would probably be start of next week.

Thanks for all the feedback and ideas. A lot of you have different ideas about these ships, but hopefully we can distill some good stuff and do a revision that you're all excited about.

Just be careful of the CSM members who have their own personal agenda in mind instead of the player base. Blink
You don't trust the elected officials?!

Enter grid and you're already dead, destined to be reborn and fight another day.

>> Play Eve Online FREE! Join today for exclusive bonuses! <<

Ja'ho sun
Series of The Ridiculous
#1430 - 2013-07-23 20:21:55 UTC
Onictus wrote:
Maximilian Akora wrote:
Onictus wrote:
Maximilian Akora wrote:


Not really, all blobbers care for is EHP and damage projection. Solo or small gang pvpers can look beyond that very limited view of F1 pushing.



Whatever, small gang you look for SPEED eHP and damage projection.....except you have to do your own point.

Don't act like small gang is some magically twitch dependant all skiller no filler, its just a smaller blob that you might have to point for youself.



If you can't see the rather massive differences between fleet/blob fits and solo/small gang fits then there's not much to discuss tbh. Case in point; blobbers dislike the changed drake and its missiles, solo and small gang folks realise it's actually a buff.



Yeah the HAM changes (and bonus changes) did GREAT things for the HAM drake......you have NO idea the deaths of my hated for the pre HML nerf fleet drake, none. That being said its a matter of application, in small gangs the drake is fine, where they there are 400 combat hulls on field its damage projection is ****. So when you come out low sec the value to the hull nose dives. When HMLs go knocked back down into the realm of all of the other medium long range weapon I was thrilled.

As it relates there there is no application where you really want to use a Cerb over that HAM drake. The range is cool and all with the cerb, but if you fart at the Cerb it goes boom.......for another 100 million, for that matter you can do near the same thing with a caracal for 50mil.




lol you just fail at fitting cerbs then
Lord Eremet
The Seatbelts
#1431 - 2013-07-23 20:22:39 UTC
Going back to that space turd that is the Eagle, knocked down from the sky by the NAGA, I took the liberation of rewriting its backstory and giving it new bonuses to better reflect its new role:



Hull: Moa Class
Role: Heavy Assault Ship

The Eagle is unique among caldari ships that it is eschewing long range fighting for close up brawling. Where more cautions Caldari pilots prefer to range death from afar, the pilots of the Eagle goes face to face with its enemy until one of them is a smoldering wreck.

With a shield that can take a serious pounding and state of the art hybrid guns to dole out hurt the Eagle is anything but a pushover and few who meet one will live to tell the tale.


Caldari Cruiser Skill Bonus:
5% bonus to Medium Hybrid Turret damage
4% resistances to shield per level

Heavy Assault Ship Skill Bonus:
10% bonus to Medium Hybrid Turret falloff
5% bonus to Medium Hybrid Turret damage per level

Role Bonus: 50% reduction of heat damage absorbed by modules


Slot layout: 5H(-1), 6M(+1), 4L; 5 turrets, 1 launchers(-1)
Fittings: 950 PWG(+75), 430 CPU(-8)
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 2500(+391) / 1250(-16) / 1550(+3)
Capacitor (amount) : 1350(-25)
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 210(+46) / .576 / 11720000 / 9.36s
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 25 / 25
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 70km / 252 / 8
Sensor strength: 18 Gravimetric
Signature radius: 150


Please note that I gave it a dronebay to field 5 light drones and a lot more base speed. I'm not sure how much pwg it need added.The rest I just copy-pasted.

With all skills at level V and no wirings, five Heavy Neutron Blaster II with CN Antimatter and five hobgoblin II, the damage output should be 757 (855 when overheated).


So, thoughts about this?
M1k3y Koontz
Speaker for the Dead
Shadow Cartel
#1432 - 2013-07-23 20:25:22 UTC  |  Edited by: M1k3y Koontz
Maximus Andendare wrote:
Marlona Sky wrote:
CCP Rise wrote:
Hey again

So we had the tournament this weekend and then I was out of the office yesterday. I'm getting started on this topic again today, but as evidenced by this enormous thread, there's plenty to do. I think we will have another CSM review step before getting the new version (which isn't even finished yet) back to you guys. If things go well, I'll have a new pass for you guys by the end of this week, if things go slow it would probably be start of next week.

Thanks for all the feedback and ideas. A lot of you have different ideas about these ships, but hopefully we can distill some good stuff and do a revision that you're all excited about.

Just be careful of the CSM members who have their own personal agenda in mind instead of the player base. Blink
You don't trust the elected officials?!


I don't trust ANY elected officials, out of game or in game Blink

Especially the nullsec CSM, those guys always have an agenda. Last thing they need is newly buffed HACs harassing their ratters and countering their battleship blobs.

How much herp could a herp derp derp if a herp derp could herp derp.
Milton Middleson
Rifterlings
#1433 - 2013-07-23 20:28:17 UTC
Onictus wrote:
[quote=Milton Middleson]
Big damage or being hard to pop is always useful.


And is a function already fulfilled by standard ships. Look, we already have the upgraded brawler/kiter distinction covered by Navy cruisers (e.g. Navy Augoror and Navy Omen, SFI and ScyFI). And while it is quite probable that HACs will be brawlers or kiters or snipers simply because they are combat ships that shoot at things, you're going to need to give them something else.

A bonus to overheating time and effectiveness would be a solid example of "something else". It emphasizes the "assault" aspect of the ship: they're not meant for extended fights, but they have an unparalleled ability to over-perform in short engagements. Maybe they're interdiction nullified, so catching a fleet of them is hard. Maybe they're immune to scrams and webs, so you can't hard tackle them. Maybe they get a miniature siege module-type thing that ups their damage in exchange for not being able to warp for two minutes. Which terrible idea you pick doesn't really matter, so long as it's useful, vaguely unique, and the hulls are able to exploit it.

The point remains, we've got the super t1 cruiser role covered by faction cruisers, and we've got the heavy cruiser role covered by battlecruisers. Trying to insert HACs into one of those roles is going to result in failure - either the rebalance succeeds, and HACs displace the old occupants of that role, or they don't, and continue to be unpopular.
M1k3y Koontz
Speaker for the Dead
Shadow Cartel
#1434 - 2013-07-23 20:29:32 UTC  |  Edited by: M1k3y Koontz
Lord Eremet wrote:
Going back to that space turd that is the Eagle, knocked down from the sky by the NAGA, I took the liberation of rewriting its backstory and giving it new bonuses to better reflect its new role:



Hull: Moa Class
Role: Heavy Assault Ship

The Eagle is unique among caldari ships that it is eschewing long range fighting for close up brawling. Where more cautions Caldari pilots prefer to range death from afar, the pilots of the Eagle goes face to face with its enemy until one of them is a smoldering wreck.

With a shield that can take a serious pounding and state of the art hybrid guns to dole out hurt the Eagle is anything but a pushover and few who meet one will live to tell the tale.


Caldari Cruiser Skill Bonus:
5% bonus to Medium Hybrid Turret damage
4% resistances to shield per level

Heavy Assault Ship Skill Bonus:
10% bonus to Medium Hybrid Turret falloff
5% bonus to Medium Hybrid Turret damage per level

Role Bonus: 50% reduction of heat damage absorbed by modules


Slot layout: 5H(-1), 6M(+1), 4L; 5 turrets, 1 launchers(-1)
Fittings: 950 PWG(+75), 430 CPU(-8)
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 2500(+391) / 1250(-16) / 1550(+3)
Capacitor (amount) : 1350(-25)
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 210(+46) / .576 / 11720000 / 9.36s
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 25 / 25
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 70km / 252 / 8
Sensor strength: 18 Gravimetric
Signature radius: 150


Please note that I gave it a dronebay to field 5 light drones and a lot more base speed. I'm not sure how much pwg it need added.The rest I just copy-pasted.

With all skills at level V and no wirings, five Heavy Neutron Blaster II with CN Antimatter and five hobgoblin II, the damage output should be 757 (855 when overheated).


So, thoughts about this?



Yes... but maybe a bit less DPS. 750 DPS (Granted, with drones) and as much tank as it has there (6 mids = MWD, scram, 4 tank slots because someone will loltank it) would be almost definitely OP. Maybe a tracking bonus over one of those damage bonuses? How would that effect the on-paper DPS?

How much herp could a herp derp derp if a herp derp could herp derp.
Il Feytid
State War Academy
Caldari State
#1435 - 2013-07-23 20:33:05 UTC
HULL TANKING

Just tossing that out there... Big smile
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1436 - 2013-07-23 20:34:29 UTC
Ja'ho sun wrote:
Onictus wrote:
Maximilian Akora wrote:
Onictus wrote:
Maximilian Akora wrote:


Not really, all blobbers care for is EHP and damage projection. Solo or small gang pvpers can look beyond that very limited view of F1 pushing.



Whatever, small gang you look for SPEED eHP and damage projection.....except you have to do your own point.

Don't act like small gang is some magically twitch dependant all skiller no filler, its just a smaller blob that you might have to point for youself.



If you can't see the rather massive differences between fleet/blob fits and solo/small gang fits then there's not much to discuss tbh. Case in point; blobbers dislike the changed drake and its missiles, solo and small gang folks realise it's actually a buff.



Yeah the HAM changes (and bonus changes) did GREAT things for the HAM drake......you have NO idea the deaths of my hated for the pre HML nerf fleet drake, none. That being said its a matter of application, in small gangs the drake is fine, where they there are 400 combat hulls on field its damage projection is ****. So when you come out low sec the value to the hull nose dives. When HMLs go knocked back down into the realm of all of the other medium long range weapon I was thrilled.

As it relates there there is no application where you really want to use a Cerb over that HAM drake. The range is cool and all with the cerb, but if you fart at the Cerb it goes boom.......for another 100 million, for that matter you can do near the same thing with a caracal for 50mil.




lol you just fail at fitting cerbs then


Please then show me a cerb build you would take again an equal number of drakes.
nikar galvren
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#1437 - 2013-07-23 20:36:38 UTC
Marlona Sky wrote:
HULL TANKING

Just tossing that out there... Big smile


It would definitely be unique... Big smile
Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#1438 - 2013-07-23 20:44:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Omnathious Deninard
Marlona Sky wrote:
HULL TANKING

Just tossing that out there... Big smile

I got trolled to hell and back for that one, I thought Gallente should get a 5% per level to the resistances of damage control modules.
Edit: effectiveness that is, so at level 5 you would get a 75% hull resistance.

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
Lord Eremet
The Seatbelts
#1439 - 2013-07-23 20:46:04 UTC
M1k3y Koontz wrote:

Yes... but maybe a bit less DPS. 750 DPS (Granted, with drones) and as much tank as it has there (6 mids = MWD, scram, 4 tank slots because someone will loltank it) would be almost definitely OP. Maybe a tracking bonus over one of those damage bonuses? How would that effect the on-paper DPS?



Easy, if you want a tank you will have to downgrade the guns, or it would be blatantly op. With only one damage bonus and drones the damage should be 625, 704 when over heating. To get 750 damage it would need to field 5 medium drones, which I feel is very un-caldari!

As for a alternative bonus... I have no idea. I will have to sleep on it I think. And come back to the thread tomorrow morning.

Suggestions to this are welcome.
M1k3y Koontz
Speaker for the Dead
Shadow Cartel
#1440 - 2013-07-23 20:47:01 UTC
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
Marlona Sky wrote:
HULL TANKING

Just tossing that out there... Big smile

I got trolled to hell and back for that one, I thought Gallente should get a 5% per level to the resistances of damage control modules.
Edit: effectiveness that is, so at level 5 you would get a 75% hull resistance.


Any ship that has fire shooting out of it is awesome by default.

Doesn't matter if that fire isn't "supposed" to be there!

How much herp could a herp derp derp if a herp derp could herp derp.