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Why would anyone fly a Vargur?
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Kosetzu
The Black Crow Bandits
Northern Coalition.
#81 - 2013-07-22 20:24:34 UTC
Keith Planck wrote:
This thread is out of control...

It got out of control at what... page 1?
hmskrecik
TransMine Group
Gluten Free Cartel
#82 - 2013-07-22 21:29:53 UTC
Kosetzu wrote:
Keith Planck wrote:
This thread is out of control...

It got out of control at what... page 1?

Actually, it got at post #1. If having performance lower than a Machariel is grounds for "being terrible" then it means basically every other non-capital ship should be written off.
Tsukino Stareine
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#83 - 2013-07-23 09:33:19 UTC
hmskrecik wrote:

Bottom line is, if you have flown both ships then you should know results and could post them here. If you didn't fly either or neither, then why do you help spreading disinformation?


i can put the same question to you in the opposite direction.

Art of Explosions
hmskrecik
TransMine Group
Gluten Free Cartel
#84 - 2013-07-23 09:57:45 UTC
Tsukino Stareine wrote:
hmskrecik wrote:

Bottom line is, if you have flown both ships then you should know results and could post them here. If you didn't fly either or neither, then why do you help spreading disinformation?


i can put the same question to you in the opposite direction.

Yes, you can.

The difference is that I back my my position by first-hand experience while you only cite EFT analysis.
Tsukino Stareine
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#85 - 2013-07-23 10:07:59 UTC
What first hand experience? I see no solid evidence of anything from you except you say that the vargur is better.

Art of Explosions
hmskrecik
TransMine Group
Gluten Free Cartel
#86 - 2013-07-23 10:18:10 UTC
Tsukino Stareine wrote:
What first hand experience? I see no solid evidence of anything from you except you say that the vargur is better.

What is not solid in the information that *every* mission Vargur completes faster than the Dominix/Kronos/Vindicator? And usually by quite significant margin (for Domi, 15% or more, for other two lesser but still noticeable).

You do not trust my testimony? Well, we have to leave it at that then. I'm not going to FRAPS just for you, sorry.
Tsukino Stareine
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#87 - 2013-07-23 10:33:37 UTC
Because it's your word without any kind of practical or theoretical backing, you don't need to fraps anything but if you're as good with numbers as you say then I'm sure you can convince me.

However at the moment I'm finding it very hard to see your side.

Art of Explosions
hmskrecik
TransMine Group
Gluten Free Cartel
#88 - 2013-07-23 10:59:55 UTC
Tsukino Stareine wrote:
Because it's your word without any kind of practical or theoretical backing, you don't need to fraps anything but if you're as good with numbers as you say then I'm sure you can convince me.

However at the moment I'm finding it very hard to see your side.

What kind of backing more practical than flying missions do you expect?
John Ratcliffe
Tradors'R'us
IChooseYou Alliance
#89 - 2013-07-23 11:50:43 UTC
Tsukino Stareine wrote:
What first hand experience? I see no solid evidence of anything from you except you say that the vargur is better.


I accept this is anecdotal, but a very good friend and Cop mate of mine owns a Mach and a Vargur and I was telling him about this thread on Vent last night. he told me that he never uses the Mach any more because the Vargur does everything the Mach does and uses half the ammo. He uses an 800mm AC fit and it spanks the NPCs silly in Lvl 4s.

We all mission together and I've seen how fast the Vargur chews through mobs - it's a very good ship for Lvl 4 PVE.

Make of that what you will.

As regards your question Tsukino, can you fly a Mach & a Vargur yourself? Had you considered doing some comparisons between the ships in mission completion times etc? just wondering what data you'd want to see to quantify 'best', even though that's really subjective.

Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose
Crularii
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#90 - 2013-07-23 12:01:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Crularii
Zor'katar wrote:
Just wanted to add for anyone else following this thread who has their eye on a Vargur and is now getting worried... it's a fine mission boat. More than fine, as a matter of fact. People are arguing about top-tier time efficiency here. If that's your goal, you probably already knew that you weren't headed for a Vargur. But for a solid salvage-as-you-go mission runner, Varg is a wonderful boat. Don't worry about the fact that you can't hit out to 100k... your tractors only go 48k anyway.


Not trying to nitpick here, but my Vargur using Barrage hits out to 100k. Of course you'd have to use a sensor booster for targetting things that far away.

And regarding the OP. I fly a Vargur because it suits my playstyle the best. I can lazy-omni-tank it, while still keeping enough oomph to finish L4 missions in an adequate timeframe. Additionally I can cherry-pick wrecks to salvage on the go and don't have to spend that much money on ammo, enabling me to use faction ammo all the time, without my wallet shouting at me. And of course the hull is sexy as hell.
Zor'katar
Matari Recreation
#91 - 2013-07-23 13:12:09 UTC
Crularii wrote:
Not trying to nitpick here, but my Vargur using Barrage hits out to 100k. Of course you'd have to use a sensor booster for targetting things that far away.

Heh. Fair enough, but if you need to be hitting out that far, you'll get better DPS out of an arty Maelstrom.

Crularii wrote:
And of course the hull is sexy as hell.

I was hoping I'd get used to it with time, but I still like the old one better. :(
Tsukino Stareine
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#92 - 2013-07-23 13:59:13 UTC
John Ratcliffe wrote:
Tsukino Stareine wrote:
What first hand experience? I see no solid evidence of anything from you except you say that the vargur is better.


I accept this is anecdotal, but a very good friend and Cop mate of mine owns a Mach and a Vargur and I was telling him about this thread on Vent last night. he told me that he never uses the Mach any more because the Vargur does everything the Mach does and uses half the ammo. He uses an 800mm AC fit and it spanks the NPCs silly in Lvl 4s.

We all mission together and I've seen how fast the Vargur chews through mobs - it's a very good ship for Lvl 4 PVE.

Make of that what you will.

As regards your question Tsukino, can you fly a Mach & a Vargur yourself? Had you considered doing some comparisons between the ships in mission completion times etc? just wondering what data you'd want to see to quantify 'best', even though that's really subjective.


I just find having to fly within 50km to do any significant damage to anything but angels highly limiting, when you can use barrage for angels its a bit better but even still every mission that spawns anything in separate blob becomes a pain. Whenever i fly a turret ship i always have the fact that my domi has been shooting for x seconds already while i have yet to start in the back of my mind

Art of Explosions
hmskrecik
TransMine Group
Gluten Free Cartel
#93 - 2013-07-23 14:30:47 UTC
Tsukino Stareine wrote:
I just find having to fly within 50km to do any significant damage [....] my domi has been shooting for x seconds already while i have yet to start[....]

I think we have found the problem.

First, 50km is more or less the cutoff distance where I don't even bother chasing targets, unless everything else is there too.

And second, when I do chase I shoot while approaching. The only moments in missions when my guns are silent are:
- when I'm in warp,
- when I'm jammed/dampened/tracking disrupted
- when everything else is dead.
Tsukino Stareine
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#94 - 2013-07-23 14:32:56 UTC
I tend not to shoot when I'm in deep falloff since it's a gigantic waste of ammo, many missions will have spawns over 50km away and npcs are not very fast.

Art of Explosions
hmskrecik
TransMine Group
Gluten Free Cartel
#95 - 2013-07-23 14:41:48 UTC
Tsukino Stareine wrote:
I tend not to shoot when I'm in deep falloff since it's a gigantic waste of ammo, many missions will have spawns over 50km away and npcs are not very fast.

The level of "wasting" is debatable but I accept your choice. But I please you to accept the fact that underwhelming results you are getting are because of your choices, not because given ship is inherently bad.
John Ratcliffe
Tradors'R'us
IChooseYou Alliance
#96 - 2013-07-23 14:43:01 UTC
Tsukino Stareine wrote:
I just find having to fly within 50km to do any significant damage to anything but angels highly limiting, when you can use barrage for angels its a bit better but even still every mission that spawns anything in separate blob becomes a pain. Whenever i fly a turret ship i always have the fact that my domi has been shooting for x seconds already while i have yet to start in the back of my mind


I think that's possibly your issue - you're not using the right ship for the right mission. For those missions where the NPCs are <50KM, he'll use either a Vindi or the Vargur. For missions where they are further away (Worlds Collide etc.) he'll use a Rail Rokh.

Personally, I just use my RNI and don't stress it, but hey-ho!

Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose
Tsukino Stareine
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#97 - 2013-07-23 14:45:31 UTC
hmskrecik wrote:
Tsukino Stareine wrote:
I tend not to shoot when I'm in deep falloff since it's a gigantic waste of ammo, many missions will have spawns over 50km away and npcs are not very fast.

The level of "wasting" is debatable but I accept your choice. But I please you to accept the fact that underwhelming results you are getting are because of your choices, not because given ship is inherently bad.


never said the ship was bad, you are doing reduced damage in deep falloff, the time you save doing 300 DPS on approach for 10 seconds or so isn't worth it to me. Even if I did make the choice to shoot all the time, my domi would still complete faster since it shoots at optimals.

Art of Explosions
hmskrecik
TransMine Group
Gluten Free Cartel
#98 - 2013-07-23 14:50:11 UTC
Tsukino Stareine wrote:
never said the ship was bad, you are doing reduced damage in deep falloff, the time you save doing 300 DPS on approach for 10 seconds or so isn't worth it to me. Even if I did make the choice to shoot all the time, my domi would still complete faster since it shoots at optimals.

Honestly, now you are disputing facts. Because facts are that even with this reduced damage Vargur still kills faster.
Tsukino Stareine
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#99 - 2013-07-23 14:59:52 UTC
Which is not a fact, it's your opinion which numbers do not support.

Art of Explosions
hmskrecik
TransMine Group
Gluten Free Cartel
#100 - 2013-07-23 15:16:44 UTC
Tsukino Stareine wrote:
Which is not a fact, it's your opinion which numbers do not support.

Time to complete the mission is opinion? Tick value is opinion? I am not talking about anything else.

Sorry, it's going nowhere... Fly safe.