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Margin Trading Scam...

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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#141 - 2013-07-23 13:42:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Looser Eto wrote:
On topic, my objection and reference to double standards is because CCP tends to downplay all scams (margin trading, isk doubling etc.) for the expense of the victim and never for the scammer.
…and the double standard is… what, exactly? They downplay all scams because it's legitimate gameplay. All they're saying is that “succeeding is good, failing is bad” — that is not a double standard. It's the same activity being judged on the same standard.

Quote:
You raised a crucial point with regards to whining: Scammers don't whine
Yes they do. That's the whole point: the OP was trying to pull a fast one over another player and failed, so now he's whining about what he (incorrectly) is the source of his failure.

Quote:
Great point, thanks.
No, it really isn't. Categorising playing a game in accordance with its rules as “not sane” or “antisocial” is the last bastion of having no reasonable point at all.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#142 - 2013-07-23 13:42:31 UTC
Quote:
Hey Tippia, thanks for the awesome skill guide which I've been following through with my main during the last few months.

On topic, my objection and reference to double standards is because CCP tends to downplay all scams (margin trading, isk doubling etc.) for the expense of the victim and never for the scammer.

You raised a crucial point with regards to whining: Scammers don't whine because (a) they know they are abusing the game mechanics in the first place, and (b) they can easily biomass their pilots and start a fresh, zero history trader/isk doubler.


This is about margin scamming. No, they can't just rinse and re-use, because you have to train up market skills before you can effectively margin trade.

It's not a double standard. They have been quite consistent. They won't protect you from stupid things you do that end up costing you money. To the victor, go the spoils.

Besides this, there is no "victim" here, anyway. Maybe a self victimization, but that's about it. CCP doesn't care what you do with your money, for your own good or ill, they are pretty laissez faire (sp?) about the whole thing. If you want to blow 100 million isk to make someone sing Baby Got Back on comms until your CEO kicks you both out of corp, that's just fine too.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#143 - 2013-07-23 13:47:02 UTC
Looser Eto wrote:
Ranger 1 wrote:

The only pathetic thing is that you can't understand that it's perfectly valid game play to scam and to be scammed.

When you try to take advantage of someone's "mistake" in the market and in turn get taken advantage of yourself, in EVE we call that Karma... or Tuesday (take your pick).

In either case the person is trying to take advantage of game mechanics. One is just being more clever about it than the other.


My argument is that the "victim" in our case above did not involve more that one pilots in his/her attempt to make more isk.

The "scammer" did probably involve a handful of alts, and he/she may actually proceed to biomass his/her trading character after a short while to cover the tracks.

Judging by your attitude, I honestly don't believe you'll be able to see the thin line between "ordinary scam" and "multi-account mechanics abuse".

The best scams are the ones that involve other people, usually called a shill. Smile

However, in this case no other account is needed... not that it matters actually. Multi-account mechanics abuse (LOL) doesn't enter into the picture. We all have 3 characters per account, this is by design.

There is also no reason for a character to be bio massed, as there is no need to "cover their tracks". This is all perfectly valid game play.

I see the situation quite clearly, thank you very much. You dislike the fact that some players are more clever than others, and prefer to blame player greed on supposed flaws in the game mechanics... DESPITE a Dev specifically telling you that his is allowed by the game design.

Your point has been taken seriously, discussed, and clarified as not being an unintended game mechanic. Now it boils down to you simply don't like it. Which is fine, but don't dress it up as a flaw in game mechanics or an exploit, as it clearly isn't.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.
Looser Eto
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#144 - 2013-07-23 13:56:17 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:

That a imaginary double standard. In other words, it doesn't exist.

As long as a player is playing within the rules, there can be no "abuse", even if the people getting scammed don't understand the rules. It's similar to the IRL concept of "Ignorance being no excuse". A game is about challenge and figuring stuff out, and EVE is no different.



I've fallen for exactly one scam. I sold a Deadspace item on contracts (before such items were available on the market) and didn't realize a zero was missing till to late. I don't get mad at the scammer, I got mad at ME for being in to much of a hurry. Scammers gonna scam, I am the one tasked with looking out for myself.



Yes, ignorance is no excuse, but people who get scammed via margin trading for example simply buy a product from station X to re-sell to station Y. This is no greed - it's a profession.

On the other side of the scale, scammers use multiple expandable pilots (and perhaps also accounts) with the intent to scam, and abuse a skill which allows downpayment of a fraction of the final cost of their sell orders. They also proceed to biomass the pilots involved as soon as they start getting heat.

Sure, scammers gonna scam, but that level of abuse of the game mechanics is gone too far.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#145 - 2013-07-23 14:00:56 UTC
Looser Eto wrote:
On the other side of the scale, scammers use multiple expandable pilots (and perhaps also accounts) with the intent to scam, and abuse a skill which allows downpayment of a fraction of the final cost of their sell orders. They also proceed to biomass the pilots involved as soon as they start getting heat.
Not really, no. All of what you listed is pretty unnecessary.

And even if they did, none of it is any kind of abuse of game mechanics.
Looser Eto
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#146 - 2013-07-23 14:05:54 UTC
Ranger 1 wrote:

The best scams are the ones that involve other people, usually called a shill. Smile

However, in this case no other account is needed... not that it matters actually. Multi-account mechanics abuse (LOL) doesn't enter into the picture. We all have 3 characters per account, this is by design.

There is also no reason for a character to be bio massed, as there is no need to "cover their tracks". This is all perfectly valid game play.

I see the situation quite clearly, thank you very much. You dislike the fact that some players are more clever than others, and prefer to blame player greed on supposed flaws in the game mechanics... DESPITE a Dev specifically telling you that his is allowed by the game design.

Your point has been taken seriously, discussed, and clarified as not being an unintended game mechanic. Now it boils down to you simply don't like it. Which is fine, but don't dress it up as a flaw in game mechanics or an exploit, as it clearly isn't.


I disagree that this is valid gameplay - the reason why I post here is because I believe very strongly that this type of scam needs to be put to rest.

In trade window scams, it is the fault of the "victim" that clicks on accept without triple-checking
In contract scams, it's the fault of the "victim" that does not read what he or she buys very carefully
In isk doubling scams, it's the fault of the "victim" that believes people throw away isk just like that

But in margin trading scams, one can not possibly know that the game mechanics are not being abused. And I am obviously not referring to sell order that are 5-10x above ordinary orders.
Jorden Ishonen
Doomheim
#147 - 2013-07-23 14:13:03 UTC
Looser Eto wrote:


Yes, ignorance is no excuse, but people who get scammed via margin trading for example simply buy a product from station X to re-sell to station Y. This is no greed - it's a profession.

On the other side of the scale, scammers use multiple expandable pilots (and perhaps also accounts) with the intent to scam, and abuse a skill which allows downpayment of a fraction of the final cost of their sell orders. They also proceed to biomass the pilots involved as soon as they start getting heat.

Sure, scammers gonna scam, but that level of abuse of the game mechanics is gone too far.


It's greed if they know that the sell price at station Y is far, far above the normal sell price. Or it's stupidity via not checking the expected price of the item. Either way, fair game.

Whether or not scammers use multiple accounts or not is pretty irrelevant, especially when it comes to margin trading. The amount of time it takes to train the skills required offsets any benefit of anonymity from the few people who actually check who they're buying from/selling to on the open market. And calling it abuse of the skill is as laughable as calling using a cloak to gank a miner abuse. You can use a cloak to hide from gankers, or you can use it to gank. You can use the margin trading skill to make your isk go farther, or you can use it to scam. It's not abuse, it's working as intended. As stated by the developers, who kind of define what is and isn't "intended." Cool

Be careful, don't get greedy, and you won't get scammed. If you do get scammed, dust yourself off and learn from it. Or whine on the forums, that's amusing for the rest of us, at least.
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#148 - 2013-07-23 14:15:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Ranger 1
Looser Eto wrote:
Ranger 1 wrote:

The best scams are the ones that involve other people, usually called a shill. Smile

However, in this case no other account is needed... not that it matters actually. Multi-account mechanics abuse (LOL) doesn't enter into the picture. We all have 3 characters per account, this is by design.

There is also no reason for a character to be bio massed, as there is no need to "cover their tracks". This is all perfectly valid game play.

I see the situation quite clearly, thank you very much. You dislike the fact that some players are more clever than others, and prefer to blame player greed on supposed flaws in the game mechanics... DESPITE a Dev specifically telling you that his is allowed by the game design.

Your point has been taken seriously, discussed, and clarified as not being an unintended game mechanic. Now it boils down to you simply don't like it. Which is fine, but don't dress it up as a flaw in game mechanics or an exploit, as it clearly isn't.


I disagree that this is valid gameplay - the reason why I post here is because I believe very strongly that this type of scam needs to be put to rest.

In trade window scams, it is the fault of the "victim" that clicks on accept without triple-checking
In contract scams, it's the fault of the "victim" that does not read what he or she buys very carefully
In isk doubling scams, it's the fault of the "victim" that believes people throw away isk just like that

But in margin trading scams, one can not possibly know that the game mechanics are not being abused. And I am obviously not referring to sell order that are 5-10x above ordinary orders.


You are purchasing an over priced item because you have seen another buy order that you assume someone screwed up on and is even more over valued. You are attempting to take advantage of anothers perceived mistake for your own profit.

This is easily foreseeable, and avoidable. Don't expect the game mechanics to prevent your own greed from burning you, that's your own responsibility.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.
Jorden Ishonen
Doomheim
#149 - 2013-07-23 14:15:53 UTC
Looser Eto wrote:
Ranger 1 wrote:

The best scams are the ones that involve other people, usually called a shill. Smile

However, in this case no other account is needed... not that it matters actually. Multi-account mechanics abuse (LOL) doesn't enter into the picture. We all have 3 characters per account, this is by design.

There is also no reason for a character to be bio massed, as there is no need to "cover their tracks". This is all perfectly valid game play.

I see the situation quite clearly, thank you very much. You dislike the fact that some players are more clever than others, and prefer to blame player greed on supposed flaws in the game mechanics... DESPITE a Dev specifically telling you that his is allowed by the game design.

Your point has been taken seriously, discussed, and clarified as not being an unintended game mechanic. Now it boils down to you simply don't like it. Which is fine, but don't dress it up as a flaw in game mechanics or an exploit, as it clearly isn't.


I disagree that this is valid gameplay - the reason why I post here is because I believe very strongly that this type of scam needs to be put to rest.

In trade window scams, it is the fault of the "victim" that clicks on accept without triple-checking
In contract scams, it's the fault of the "victim" that does not read what he or she buys very carefully
In isk doubling scams, it's the fault of the "victim" that believes people throw away isk just like that

But in margin trading scams, one can not possibly know that the game mechanics are not being abused. And I am obviously not referring to sell order that are 5-10x above ordinary orders.


I disagree that anyone disagreeing with me is valid gameplay! Developers, remove this man immediately!






...but seriously, you literally had a developer tell you this was valid gameplay on this very thread. Do we need to set it to a catchy beat and have it go viral on Youtube?
Looser Eto
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#150 - 2013-07-23 14:31:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Looser Eto
Ranger 1 wrote:

You are purchasing an over priced item because you have seen another buy order that you assume someone screwed up on and is even more over valued. You are attempting to take advantage of anothers perceived mistake for your own profit.

This is easily foreseeable, and avoidable. Don't expect the game mechanics to prevent your own greed from burning you, that's your own responsibility.


Exactly. If it was a matter of a screw up it would then be of the same level of mining in a hulk without protection. Or it would be as stupid as not reading the full description of the contract before clicking "buy". But this is entirely different.

From the perspective of the scammer, he or she has absolutely nothing to lose. They risk nothing and make a hell of a lot of isk, off newbies 99% of the time. Same applies to "isk doublers". If they run into troubles, they simply biomass and start anew. Zero risk - just the argument that Hulkageddon used and also the exact same argument that was the ground for the Ice changes.

I don't want to be misunderstood, I enjoy risk taking, which is why I enjoy playing Eve, but if we go for it then it has got to apply to all aspects of the game including scamming.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#151 - 2013-07-23 14:51:48 UTC
Looser Eto wrote:
I disagree that this is valid gameplay
Unfortunately, it doesn't really matter since the devs say it is.

Quote:
In trade window scams, it is the fault of the "victim" that clicks on accept without triple-checking
In contract scams, it's the fault of the "victim" that does not read what he or she buys very carefully
In isk doubling scams, it's the fault of the "victim" that believes people throw away isk just like that
…and in the margin scam, it's the fault of the victim that invests in things without trying to figure out what the stuff is actually worth. Since they'd be equally screwed by their own incompetence no matter the reason the buy order is no longer available when they come around to selling their overpriced crap, it's not really the fault of the game mechanics. It certainly doesn't qualify as abuse, since that rather suggests that something is happening that isn't supposed to happen…

Quote:
. If it was a matter of a screw up
It is a matter of a screw-up. The seller screwed up in his research. It's as stupid as not checking on the price before clicking “buy”.

Quote:
From the perspective of the scammer, he or she has absolutely nothing to lose.
He stands to lose a lot of ISK if he screws up the buy order and his wallet, and he has to spend a pretty penny on stuff he doesn't particularly intend to use in order to get the scam off the ground.
De'Veldrin
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#152 - 2013-07-23 15:32:19 UTC
Looser Eto wrote:
I believe very strongly that this type of scam needs to be put to rest.


Your belief is noted, but irrelevant.

De'Veldrin's Corollary (to Malcanis' Law): Any idea that seeks to limit the ability of a large nullsec bloc to do something in the name of allowing more small groups into sov null will inevitably make it that much harder for small groups to enter sov null.
Juliette Asanari
Voodoo Children
#153 - 2013-07-23 15:41:07 UTC
Looser Eto wrote:


Yes, ignorance is no excuse, but people who get scammed via margin trading for example simply buy a product from station X to re-sell to station Y. This is no greed - it's a profession.



Just chiming in here, because what you describe is what I actually do ingame. And I have never fallen for a magin-trading-scam.

With experience you get to know your 'usual suspects' - the stuff that is cheap in X and sells well in Y. Whenever something unusual pops up on the market (incredibly cheap deadspace/faction/officer modules or discontiued collectors items or whatever) I check the market in the designation region. How has the price developed over the last few weeks/months? How many items are traded on a daily basis? If it looks odd (and too good to be true)... you know the drill.

And before someone yells 'Think of the newbies!!oneelven' at me - newbies usually don't have enough capital to even buy the scammed goods....
Jorden Ishonen
Doomheim
#154 - 2013-07-23 15:44:16 UTC
Juliette Asanari wrote:
Looser Eto wrote:


Yes, ignorance is no excuse, but people who get scammed via margin trading for example simply buy a product from station X to re-sell to station Y. This is no greed - it's a profession.



Just chiming in here, because what you describe is what I actually do ingame. And I have never fallen for a magin-trading-scam.

With experience you get to know your 'usual suspects' - the stuff that is cheap in X and sells well in Y. Whenever something unusual pops up on the market (incredibly cheap deadspace/faction/officer modules or discontiued collectors items or whatever) I check the market in the designation region. How has the price developed over the last few weeks/months? How many items are traded on a daily basis? If it looks odd (and too good to be true)... you know the drill.

And before someone yells 'Think of the newbies!!oneelven' at me - newbies usually don't have enough capital to even buy the scammed goods....



Your first like! Use it well.

and what the hell are you doing dealing with a dragon
Juliette Asanari
Voodoo Children
#155 - 2013-07-23 15:49:30 UTC
Jorden Ishonen wrote:


and what the hell are you doing dealing with a dragon


I used to be a dragon, but then I took an arrow to the knee... :D
Johan Toralen
IIIJIIIITIIII
#156 - 2013-07-23 15:57:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Johan Toralen
Looser Eto wrote:
In trade window scams, it is the fault of the "victim" that clicks on accept without triple-checking
In contract scams, it's the fault of the "victim" that does not read what he or she buys very carefully
In isk doubling scams, it's the fault of the "victim" that believes people throw away isk just like that

But in margin trading scams, one can not possibly know that the game mechanics are not being abused. And I am obviously not referring to sell order that are 5-10x above ordinary orders.


It's exactly the same as falling for a contract scam. Lack of reading comprehension, carelessness and buying stuff without knowing its value.
On top of that it's not even necessary to know. Simple common sense rule of thumb: if it looks too good to be true it probably isn't true. You only ever have to blame yourself if greed trumps your common sense. Don't blame others. Don't request Eve to become idiot proof. It's not appreciated.

You are also wrong to assume that almost only noobs fall victim. Noobs don't have billions to blow on random mods. The greed is strong in everyone. Common sense not so much.
Jorden Ishonen
Doomheim
#157 - 2013-07-23 16:17:18 UTC
Juliette Asanari wrote:
Jorden Ishonen wrote:


and what the hell are you doing dealing with a dragon


I used to be a dragon, but then I took an arrow to the knee... :D



I want my like back. Evil
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#158 - 2013-07-23 16:31:03 UTC
Looser Eto wrote:
Yes, ignorance is no excuse, but people who get scammed via margin trading for example simply buy a product from station X to re-sell to station Y. This is no greed - it's a profession.


And if you're so bad at that profession that you don't bother trying to get a decent price on your purchases, you're going to lose money.

Quote:
On the other side of the scale, scammers use multiple expandable pilots (and perhaps also accounts) with the intent to scam, and abuse a skill which allows downpayment of a fraction of the final cost of their sell orders. They also proceed to biomass the pilots involved as soon as they start getting heat.

Sure, scammers gonna scam, but that level of abuse of the game mechanics is gone too far.


1) Using alts is perfectly legal. Scamming is perfectly legal.
2) Why would they bother disposing of them? What heat are they getting?
3) That is the entire point of the skill. It doesn't let them buy items for any cheaper, so what's the problem?
4) You still seem confused. The scam is over once you've purchased the overpriced item. The scammer has your money, and you've got a worthless item. How they tricked you into buying the item is irrelevant.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#159 - 2013-07-23 16:34:16 UTC
RubyPorto wrote:
Looser Eto wrote:
Yes, ignorance is no excuse, but people who get scammed via margin trading for example simply buy a product from station X to re-sell to station Y. This is no greed - it's a profession.


And if you're so bad at that profession that you don't bother trying to get a decent price on your purchases, you're going to lose money..


Exactly.

I do wonder why that's hard to accept for some people. Maybe it's just me and my aversion to excuse making.
De'Veldrin
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#160 - 2013-07-23 17:38:29 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
RubyPorto wrote:
Looser Eto wrote:
Yes, ignorance is no excuse, but people who get scammed via margin trading for example simply buy a product from station X to re-sell to station Y. This is no greed - it's a profession.


And if you're so bad at that profession that you don't bother trying to get a decent price on your purchases, you're going to lose money..


Exactly.

I do wonder why that's hard to accept for some people. Maybe it's just me and my aversion to excuse making.


I think it's the we're all victims mentality of modern society, to be honest. Something bad happened to you?! It's someone else's fault obviously (usually followed by and I can help you sue them!).

De'Veldrin's Corollary (to Malcanis' Law): Any idea that seeks to limit the ability of a large nullsec bloc to do something in the name of allowing more small groups into sov null will inevitably make it that much harder for small groups to enter sov null.