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You guys ready to sell your T3's yet?

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chris elliot
Treasury Department
Plug N Play
#41 - 2013-07-22 18:56:47 UTC
Chitsa Jason wrote:

Hello. First of all I am no expert on HACs. I am expert on T3s. I am allowing other CSM members who are more familiar with HACs fiddle with aiming nd argue with CCP. What I am doing right now is just watching the process and making sure that HACs are not OP compared to T3s.

When it will come to T3 re-balance you will have two members on CSM who will do everything in their power to prevent nerfs to T3s.


At the risk of ISD Busybody cleansing my posts again, I would suggest you educate yourself then chitsa. These balances directly affect the coming T3 balance. Claiming ignorance of the ships intended to usurp T3s will only serve to hurt your case when you argue for the T3s.
DB Jones
Imperium Technologies
Sigma Grindset
#42 - 2013-07-22 19:05:40 UTC
What I do not understand why T3's are considered OP? When you pay upwards of 500m for a hull (and subs) and then throw in fits (asuming a few faction mods at least) don't you expect it to perform? Nerfing t3 doesn't fix hac's being broken. I wouldnt want to fly a legion if the omen is just as good >_<
Phoenix Jones
Small-Arms Fire
#43 - 2013-07-22 20:52:17 UTC
The nullsecers want you to Ask yourself this. Why do you fly a t3 when you could fly a t2. T3's are overpowered, and were going to nerf them so you will come fly a true ship, a ship made from nullsec, owned by nullsec, ruled by nullsec.

That is what the mega corporations want you to think....


You want to know why I like to fly t3's? I like to fly them because when I buy one, I lnow that my isk is being invested back into wormhole space, to those people who farm gasses and kill sleepers to build these ships and modules. I do not want my money to go off to some nullsec renter, who then gives my isk to some sov holder who does not have my interests or beliefs in mind? I don't want my isk to go to those people who enslave those moon miners.... I want to support my local economy. Domestic labor. Wormhole industrialists. We are those who strive to not be oppressed by the mega corporations. We are the small local business men and women who create the ships of our futures, our wormhole t3's.

When I think of a ship, I think of a wormhole made ship, and not one of those foreign brands.

I am pro wormhole. Are you?

Yaay!!!!
chris elliot
Treasury Department
Plug N Play
#44 - 2013-07-22 21:15:37 UTC
DB Jones wrote:
What I do not understand why T3's are considered OP? When you pay upwards of 500m for a hull (and subs) and then throw in fits (asuming a few faction mods at least) don't you expect it to perform? Nerfing t3 doesn't fix hac's being broken. I wouldnt want to fly a legion if the omen is just as good >_<


Because no matter how much it's your favorite 1.84million ehp on a cruiser that can warp cloaked and scram at 30km is OP.
chris elliot
Treasury Department
Plug N Play
#45 - 2013-07-22 21:18:48 UTC
Phoenix Jones wrote:
The nullsecers want you to Ask yourself this. Why do you fly a t3 when you could fly a t2. T3's are overpowered, and were going to nerf them so you will come fly a true ship, a ship made from nullsec, owned by nullsec, ruled by nullsec.

That is what the mega corporations want you to think....


You want to know why I like to fly t3's? I like to fly them because when I buy one, I lnow that my isk is being invested back into wormhole space, to those people who farm gasses and kill sleepers to build these ships and modules. I do not want my money to go off to some nullsec renter, who then gives my isk to some sov holder who does not have my interests or beliefs in mind? I don't want my isk to go to those people who enslave those moon miners.... I want to support my local economy. Domestic labor. Wormhole industrialists. We are those who strive to not be oppressed by the mega corporations. We are the small local business men and women who create the ships of our futures, our wormhole t3's.

When I think of a ship, I think of a wormhole made ship, and not one of those foreign brands.

I am pro wormhole. Are you?



I am pro blowing things up. The more variety I have the better to keep my ADHD in check. Right now my variety is being skewed towards t1 everything because t2's are terrible and have terrible outlooks and t3s look to be on the same path.
chris elliot
Treasury Department
Plug N Play
#46 - 2013-07-22 21:21:13 UTC  |  Edited by: chris elliot
Double post.... Stupid phone
Trinkets friend
Sudden Buggery
Sending Thots And Players
#47 - 2013-07-23 03:33:55 UTC
Lloyd Roses wrote:
said a bunch of stuff
...whichI will now disprove

Lloyd Roses wrote:
it's because most of them are indeed LR platforms of some sort


Yeah, Sac...long-range? Diemost...long range? And will continue to be long-range with poor fitting capability for the medium rails it cannot shoot for long enough to make kiting viable. Herpaderp. Zealot...long range only because of Scorch. Vaga, likewise for Barrage but the TE nerf cruels that. Ishtar....sentry sniper fleets are OK. But no one uses them in w-space because you need 40+ ships to assign drones to the FC, and the Ishtar can't tank to save it's life on a w-space brawl. No one uses Ishtar fleets in k-space because there's no mass limits and you may as well take Vexors or Spud Fleet.

Quote:
And 6-mids Eagle sounds great, say no to 6 mids on a blasterboat with medium Null would not be wise.

Yeah. lets see. Scram, Web, MWD, LSE, Invul...and then what? More resists? TD? Or drop the web for TD and do double TD? Or dual LASB? Cool - you have a spare mid flapping in the breeze. You have a 200M faster Ferox, which is slower than every T1 cruiser and Navy cruiser and can't tank much better. Stellar.

Quote:
That Navy Cruisers are at least competing with HACs, if not outclassing them offensively or in terms of raw dps, is no issue at all. Navy Cruisers have a similiar pricetag and lack ALL of the great defenses a HAC has to offer - resistances and that mwd-bloom reduction.


Really? 60M hull same fitting on a Scythe Fleet or SFI != 170M for a Vagabond. 80M navy Omen !=150M Sac. Etc etc.

So you are making a choice that the ship you cannot feasibly make into a MWD kite LR platform will work as a, eg, med rail Diemost with a 800 plate and 2 RCU glass cannon because you have a 50% sig reduction. You sacrifice 40-80% of your tank to gain a 50% less chance of being hit, resulting in being in the same position and 120M ISK worse off.

Or you buy a Talos and outperform BOTH a the Navy Cruiser and the HAC without sacrificing ISK or Tank. Same for ANY long-range HAC - just buy two Attack BCs.

You are right about the Protato. You can get silly on Protatoes with 1000DPS 100K EHP killdozers. We all know they need a nerfing. But nerfing it to what? A Diemost? Pay 650M to get less DPS and equally poor survivability to the Diemost? Nope.

In reality, T3 prices are actually quite low. Consider that you can get in to a T3 for as little as 480M without pimp. A HAC will cost 200-220M. The performance of T3's is greater per ISK than a HAC, so for people rolling in ISK and willing to invest in their fun, it's a no-brainer - without even getting in to the mass limit and DPS/tonne arguments.

The problem is, if T3's are nerfed below the proposed pathetic state of HACs then T3's will become more or less worthless overnight. As you say, Lloyd, some navy Cruisers eclipse HACs right now. So where does it put the price-point of a T3 in relation to Navy cruisers and HACs?

In reality, if T3's become worth less DPS and tank per tonne than a Navy cruiser, they will become cheaper than Navy cruisers - and cheaper still because of skill risk. So, what, a fully fitted T3 for 250-300M?

That's an economic cost/benefit argument. The real problem here is if HACs aren't balanced and given a role, what role does the Strategic Cruiser have to meet part way? Being a bad DPS boat with a sub-par tank and cloaking? Does that already. Probing slightly worse than a covops? Does that already. Being slightly worse than a recon (and arguably tanking as poorly as some recons)?

~~ Localectomy Blog ~~
Swidgen
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#48 - 2013-07-23 07:12:23 UTC
Phoenix Jones wrote:
Well if CCP does commit what we think they might, yea they'll get there original intention of wormhole space not being livable...

I'm still confident in our CSM guys to not fk 1/3 of the space in eve and make wormholes function just like null... Being both devoid and empty of all life.

I'm surprised more people haven't made this connection yet. Word on the street holds that CCP never intended for people to live in w-space on a permanent basis, and they were somewhat surprised when that's exactly what happened. I wish there was verifiable confirmation of that from CCP's end, but it may have been attributed to a dev speaking informally at some gathering or event.

In any case, if CCP didn't intend for people to live fulltime in w-space, what did they envision would happen, exactly? As usual, this is another big mystery 4 years after their introduction in Apocrypha (summer 2009 expansion). Large fleets searching out chains to high-end wormholes to farm a few billion isk worth of loot that has to be split among 20 people - and then exit back to k-space again - could be an all day affair that many would consider the effort not worth the trouble. So what was CCP's original intent for how w-space "should" be used and exploited by the players? My guess is they had no plan or intent, it was another "get it into the game and we'll figure it out later" thing.

If people largely abandon w-space, what then? Maybe CCP Seagull's closing remarks at the end of fanfest hold a clue. She mentioned the theme of the next few expansions would be "colonization" and something about "creating your own stargates". Could be, but I question CCP's ability to plan and maintain anything these days. CCP Seagull is awesome and I hope she can boldly go where no CCP'er has gone before (i.e. in an intelligent, thoughtful and planned out in advance manner).
Jay Joringer
13.
#49 - 2013-07-23 07:35:18 UTC
Swidgen wrote:
Phoenix Jones wrote:
Well if CCP does commit what we think they might, yea they'll get there original intention of wormhole space not being livable...

I'm still confident in our CSM guys to not fk 1/3 of the space in eve and make wormholes function just like null... Being both devoid and empty of all life.

I'm surprised more people haven't made this connection yet. Word on the street holds that CCP never intended for people to live in w-space on a permanent basis, and they were somewhat surprised when that's exactly what happened. I wish there was verifiable confirmation of that from CCP's end, but it may have been attributed to a dev speaking informally at some gathering or event.

In any case, if CCP didn't intend for people to live fulltime in w-space, what did they envision would happen, exactly? As usual, this is another big mystery 4 years after their introduction in Apocrypha (summer 2009 expansion). Large fleets searching out chains to high-end wormholes to farm a few billion isk worth of loot that has to be split among 20 people - and then exit back to k-space again - could be an all day affair that many would consider the effort not worth the trouble. So what was CCP's original intent for how w-space "should" be used and exploited by the players? My guess is they had no plan or intent, it was another "get it into the game and we'll figure it out later" thing.

If people largely abandon w-space, what then? Maybe CCP Seagull's closing remarks at the end of fanfest hold a clue. She mentioned the theme of the next few expansions would be "colonization" and something about "creating your own stargates". Could be, but I question CCP's ability to plan and maintain anything these days. CCP Seagull is awesome and I hope she can boldly go where no CCP'er has gone before (i.e. in an intelligent, thoughtful and planned out in advance manner).


Barking up the wrong tree.

It was Greyscale who mentioned at the WH round table that he never checked the box that meant people couldn't anchor POS's in WH space because he didn't people would bother with the logistics of supplying them. They did also go on to say they liked the way it has turned out - which is also why we've seen no new content here.

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Swidgen
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#50 - 2013-07-23 08:37:29 UTC
Jay Joringer wrote:
It was Greyscale who mentioned at the WH round table that he never checked the box that meant people couldn't anchor POS's in WH space because he didn't people would bother with the logistics of supplying them. They did also go on to say they liked the way it has turned out - which is also why we've seen no new content here.

Thanks, I wasn't aware of that. So we have a situation where "ccp never intended for people to live in wormholes" makes 10 laps around the track before "they're happy with the result" even gets out of the starting gate. Is it any wonder that players get frustrated with CCP's woeful communication skills?

People abandon w-space in droves after the posited incoming T3 nerf leaving behind a wasteland of economic inopportunity. That doesn't sound like a place CCP would go on purpose. Not unless they've got other plans for w-space. Expanding their vision of "colonization" to w-space still seems more likely to me than any opening up of Jove space. We'll see about that, but it does kind of suck that the first few ship rebalancing rounds went rather well and now they seem to be stumbling a bit.
Proclus Diadochu
Mar Sarrim
Red Coat Conspiracy
#51 - 2013-07-23 08:51:39 UTC
Swidgen wrote:
Jay Joringer wrote:
It was Greyscale who mentioned at the WH round table that he never checked the box that meant people couldn't anchor POS's in WH space because he didn't people would bother with the logistics of supplying them. They did also go on to say they liked the way it has turned out - which is also why we've seen no new content here.

Thanks, I wasn't aware of that. So we have a situation where "ccp never intended for people to live in wormholes" makes 10 laps around the track before "they're happy with the result" even gets out of the starting gate. Is it any wonder that players get frustrated with CCP's woeful communication skills?

People abandon w-space in droves after the posited incoming T3 nerf leaving behind a wasteland of economic inopportunity. That doesn't sound like a place CCP would go on purpose. Not unless they've got other plans for w-space. Expanding their vision of "colonization" to w-space still seems more likely to me than any opening up of Jove space. We'll see about that, but it does kind of suck that the first few ship rebalancing rounds went rather well and now they seem to be stumbling a bit.


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Meytal
Doomheim
#52 - 2013-07-23 12:29:54 UTC
chris elliot wrote:
Because no matter how much it's your favorite 1.84million ehp on a cruiser that can warp cloaked and scram at 30km is OP.

Don't forget that they can fit 100MN ABs, jam at the same strength as the T2 Electronics Frigate, neut with a better efficiency per cap bounce than the Bhaal, web almost as good as the Vindi, and get 700+ dps, all in a cruiser sized package that has up to 100+ km weapons range. The only thing it can't do is slice your bread and butter your toast. No wonder people are running scared from them!
Jay Joringer
13.
#53 - 2013-07-23 13:02:36 UTC
Meytal wrote:
chris elliot wrote:
Because no matter how much it's your favorite 1.84million ehp on a cruiser that can warp cloaked and scram at 30km is OP.

Don't forget that they can fit 100MN ABs, jam at the same strength as the T2 Electronics Frigate, neut with a better efficiency per cap bounce than the Bhaal, web almost as good as the Vindi, and get 700+ dps, all in a cruiser sized package that has up to 100+ km weapons range. The only thing it can't do is slice your bread and butter your toast. No wonder people are running scared from them!


Show me a fit that can do all that at once and I'll show you one that can slice bread and butter toast.

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Jack Miton
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#54 - 2013-07-23 13:29:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Jack Miton
Jay Joringer wrote:
Meytal wrote:
chris elliot wrote:
Because no matter how much it's your favorite 1.84million ehp on a cruiser that can warp cloaked and scram at 30km is OP.

Don't forget that they can fit 100MN ABs, jam at the same strength as the T2 Electronics Frigate, neut with a better efficiency per cap bounce than the Bhaal, web almost as good as the Vindi, and get 700+ dps, all in a cruiser sized package that has up to 100+ km weapons range. The only thing it can't do is slice your bread and butter your toast. No wonder people are running scared from them!

Show me a fit that can do all that at once and I'll show you one that can slice bread and butter toast.

none of the T3s web like a vindi
none of them neut as much as a bhaal
tengu jams a LOT worse than a falcon/kitsune
none of the T3s have 100km range without rigs (tengu tops out in the 90s, all others are a LOT less.)

to be fair, they can all get 700dps OR fit a 100mn AB (prot can probably do both at once? not relevant tho tbh... )
then again, so can a thorax.


PS: you also can't get 1.84mil ehp on a T3 with ANY sort of relevance and an arazu scrams well further than a proteus.

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Onomerous
Caldari Black Hand
Caldari Tactical Operations Command
#55 - 2013-07-23 15:26:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Onomerous
Jack Miton wrote:
Jay Joringer wrote:
Meytal wrote:
chris elliot wrote:
Because no matter how much it's your favorite 1.84million ehp on a cruiser that can warp cloaked and scram at 30km is OP.

Don't forget that they can fit 100MN ABs, jam at the same strength as the T2 Electronics Frigate, neut with a better efficiency per cap bounce than the Bhaal, web almost as good as the Vindi, and get 700+ dps, all in a cruiser sized package that has up to 100+ km weapons range. The only thing it can't do is slice your bread and butter your toast. No wonder people are running scared from them!

Show me a fit that can do all that at once and I'll show you one that can slice bread and butter toast.

none of the T3s web like a vindi
none of them neut as much as a bhaal
tengu jams a LOT worse than a falcon/kitsune
none of the T3s have 100km range without rigs (tengu tops out in the 90s, all others are a LOT less.)

to be fair, they can all get 700dps OR fit a 100mn AB (prot can probably do both at once? not relevant tho tbh... )
then again, so can a thorax.


PS: you also can't get 1.84mil ehp on a T3 with ANY sort of relevance and an arazu scrams well further than a proteus.


Are you suggesting people are using hyperbole in their description of how OP T3 are? No, never!!


T3 are supposed to be more flexible and not quite as good as a T2 in the the specialized role of the T2:

None can beat logi T2: CHECK
None can beat HIC T2: CHECK
None can beat Recon T3: ECM - CHECK, Web - CHECK, Scram/Disrupter - CHECK
None can beat T2 HAC: Can't tell true role of HAC ATM - UNCHECK
Can play more than one T2 role (but not as well)- CHECK (to some degree but need some changes on many subsystems to make them relevant)

Seems T3 are not better than T2 (at their specialized role) other than HAC and they are more flexible. Since the role of HAC isn't real clear, it could be T3 is better than T2 in that role. There are definitely some hulls and/or subsystem combinations which need to be reduced. Should they be nerfed to hell and back like too many are advocating.. hell no!!
chris elliot
Treasury Department
Plug N Play
#56 - 2013-07-23 16:07:29 UTC
Jack Miton wrote:



PS: you also can't get 1.84mil ehp on a T3 with ANY sort of relevance and an arazu scrams well further than a protease


Do you really want me to prove you wrong here jack or you just going to take my word for it that you can make a proteus do all 3 at once? I've got the screens/fit at home I'll give you when I get out of work if it makes you feel better.
Onomerous
Caldari Black Hand
Caldari Tactical Operations Command
#57 - 2013-07-23 17:21:55 UTC
chris elliot wrote:
Jack Miton wrote:



PS: you also can't get 1.84mil ehp on a T3 with ANY sort of relevance and an arazu scrams well further than a protease


Do you really want me to prove you wrong here jack or you just going to take my word for it that you can make a proteus do all 3 at once? I've got the screens/fit at home I'll give you when I get out of work if it makes you feel better.


I'd like to see that. Last time I challenged someone to prove something along those lines, they came up with an EFT warrior fit which everyone agreed wouldn't be flown in PVP.
Xequecal
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#58 - 2013-07-23 18:53:39 UTC
I assume you mean 184,000 EHP, 1.84 million is clearly impossible.
Alundil
Rolled Out
#59 - 2013-07-23 19:47:19 UTC
> 1,000,000 is possible. It's just not smart.
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chris elliot
Treasury Department
Plug N Play
#60 - 2013-07-23 23:06:30 UTC  |  Edited by: chris elliot
Onomerous wrote:
chris elliot wrote:
Jack Miton wrote:



PS: you also can't get 1.84mil ehp on a T3 with ANY sort of relevance and an arazu scrams well further than a protease


Do you really want me to prove you wrong here jack or you just going to take my word for it that you can make a proteus do all 3 at once? I've got the screens/fit at home I'll give you when I get out of work if it makes you feel better.


I'd like to see that. Last time I challenged someone to prove something along those lines, they came up with an EFT warrior fit which everyone agreed wouldn't be flown in PVP.



Ok, so I was off a tad. But hey whats the big difference between 2.03 million ehp and 1.84million right?

2.03 Million ehp
Effect C6 Wolf
416 Dps
Warp cloaked = yes
1181 m/s
20km scram without
Overheated = yes
Link to screenshot


Or if you prefer, since some people don't like overheating(In a t3 you can overheat forever so why not right?)

1.42 million ehp
Effect C6 Wolf
416 Dps
Warp cloaked = yes
1181 m/s
20km scram
Overheated = no
Link to screenshot

Or for the scrubs not fighting chitsa at home, or in K-space, you still get

1.02 million ehp (1.43 overheated)
Effect = None/K-space
416 Dps
Warp cloaked = yes
1181 m/s
20 km scram
Link to screenshot