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So, all these changes, but...
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Revolution Rising
Last-Light Holdings
#1 - 2011-11-10 06:51:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Revolution Rising
Mining is still the red headed stepchild of the ugly 2 headed stripper you were really drunk and slept with once ?

So I go out in a t1 bc even and can rat for hours with drops and salvage bringing in twice (at least) as much in cash. I can defend myself at least reasonbly well.

Mining I can't defend myself and bring in half as much ?

That about sum it up ?

I'd really love to see that 2007 or whatever it was update to industry we were supposed to get but got sidetracked.

.
Kietay Ayari
Caldari State
#2 - 2011-11-10 06:54:56 UTC
Defence while mining: Don't go afk, stay in motion aligned towards something, even a bookmark you have made. It will be like magic how you somehow never die. As for the rewards? D: That sucks.

Ferox #1
Revolution Rising
Last-Light Holdings
#3 - 2011-11-10 06:57:54 UTC
yeah I'm not new...

I was talking more about the fact that if you have 2 groups, one that can defend themselves, another who can't... They both go out into the same system and make money, don't you think just from a gameplay point of view that the guy who can't defend himself and is totally geared towards making money should make more than the guy in the combat ship ?

Just as a general principle?

.
Kietay Ayari
Caldari State
#4 - 2011-11-10 07:13:01 UTC
Nuh uh. I don't think one should make more than the other, but I do think mining should make more than it does now! I have no idea how they could fix this besides magically removing all the bots though! Maybe Once an asteroid is depleted it has a chance to drop a super dense core that can be refined into a large amount of minerals of your choice! Asteroids in highsec drop rarely!

:D then we can be super rich and the bots can be super duper rich. Until it starts to even out and the extra supply of minerals just makes the prices even lower ;D

Ferox #1
Revolution Rising
Last-Light Holdings
#5 - 2011-11-10 07:14:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Revolution Rising
How about making ships require more minerals? And/or making all belts require scanning down first.

.
Kietay Ayari
Caldari State
#6 - 2011-11-10 07:20:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Kietay Ayari
Oh my God, it is so simple! Now I feel dumb.

EDIT: Wait a minute!~ I thought about that for a few more seconds and... wouldnt that just mean ISK is worth less? Miners make more for their minerals, but products cost more... you make double, you spend double... D: D: D: D: At least I dont feel dumb anymore.

Ferox #1
Revolution Rising
Last-Light Holdings
#7 - 2011-11-10 07:26:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Revolution Rising
Making ships require more minerals might well devalue isk some - but would bring the difference between combat and miner's incomes closer.

Scanning down belts might just require better programming for the bots. But I'm fairly certain they'd have a lot of trouble programming a bot to scan a belt down and again moving TO the belt requires moving to a bookmark currently - not sure they do that either. Personally, I'm not even sure they move between systems as part of the botting program.

And again 2nd idea might make the first idea worthless anyhow, as you said if they got rid of all the bots magically, we might be able to make some isk.

No you're not stupid, you're totally correct.

.
Tekota
The Freighter Factory
#8 - 2011-11-10 07:36:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Tekota
Revolution Rising wrote:
How about making ships require more minerals? And/or making all belts require scanning down first.


Unfortunately I strongly suspect that anything which increases consumption or increases yield will simply be met with increased output and a fresh drive to the bottom. Mining returns poor dividends because it's easy to afk or semi-afk. Now this easy afk nature also does lend itself to botting and whilst it's clear that these do get caught by CCP I'm sure we'd all welcome quicker detection and removal.

Anyway, people tend to value their time quite cheaply, and especially time spent on activities like mining that don't particularly require much attention.

I suspect that any boost to mining profits will only come at the expense of that semi-afk nature to emphasise the human element; this hopefully having the effect of minimising bot impact and increasing game interaction which in turn would see people value their time to a greater extent. Think about it, why do you mine rather than a.n.other isk making activity? I'm willing to bet that most people accept that lower payoff because they can mine whilst reading a book, changing the kid, removing jam sandwiches that the kids have wodged into the DVD player etc. Make mining require similar human input to other activities and I suspect market forces will ensure it rises to compete with other activities.
Kietay Ayari
Caldari State
#9 - 2011-11-10 07:40:41 UTC
I think it would be good if it took more effort to do but also made more monies!

Ferox #1
Ladie Harlot
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#10 - 2011-11-10 07:50:33 UTC
Revolution Rising wrote:
yeah I'm not new...

I was talking more about the fact that if you have 2 groups, one that can defend themselves, another who can't...

Of course miners can defend themselves. Why would you think they can't?

The artist formerly known as Ladie Scarlet.
Revolution Rising
Last-Light Holdings
#11 - 2011-11-10 08:14:05 UTC
Ladie Harlot wrote:
Revolution Rising wrote:
yeah I'm not new...

I was talking more about the fact that if you have 2 groups, one that can defend themselves, another who can't...

Of course miners can defend themselves. Why would you think they can't?



Don't really need goon trolls here.

.
Skippermonkey
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#12 - 2011-11-10 11:03:05 UTC
Mining is still the 'red headed stepchild of the ugly 2 headed stripper you were really drunk and slept with once ' because even 'red headed stepchild of the ugly 2 headed stripper you were really drunk and slept with once' can do it.

COME AT ME BRO

I'LL JUST BE DOCKED IN THIS STATION
Velicitia
XS Tech
#13 - 2011-11-10 11:22:11 UTC
Revolution Rising wrote:
Ladie Harlot wrote:
Revolution Rising wrote:
yeah I'm not new...

I was talking more about the fact that if you have 2 groups, one that can defend themselves, another who can't...

Of course miners can defend themselves. Why would you think they can't?



Don't really need goon trolls here.



goon's right though...

we have d-scan, local, etc just like the combat doods.
we can sacrifice mining efficiency (oh, the horror!) to fit a fairly decent (OK, still low ... but decent for a barge) tank so sui-ganks need more than one pilot
we can simply STOP supplying the market*

* essentially, this is stupid difficult ... but should be feasible in say a small area (constellation, maybe).

  1. Miners mine/refine, and issue contracts to known builders (i.e. get an agreement with those other indy corps)
  2. Indy corps issue contracts to KNOWN BLUE Pee Vee Pee corporations in the area (also missioners, etc)
  3. Markets slowly dwindle as those Pee Vee Pee guys stop buying from the markets, making things harder to obtain for the non-blues


yes, it's stupid difficult to get going. yes, it can be broken by a single trader finding out ... but it's something better than QQ on the forums and accusing everyone who doesn't necessarily agree with you a troll.

No, I'm not a goon ... though they did offer me a position in GoonWaffe for the low, low price of 500m (sidenote to anyone who thinks this is serious -- it's a KNOWN GOON SCAM <-- read this twice if you have to)

One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia
Revolution Rising
Last-Light Holdings
#14 - 2011-11-10 11:27:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Revolution Rising
Not everyone is part of a large organisation.
Look around the forums, it's a known problem experienced by hundreds (or more) of people who have posted about it in quite a few places and saying it's not is basically trolling at this point.

Take a look in threads regarding the current plex price and you go down a few posts and mining and the lack of income to anyone but botters comes up.

If miners can defend themselves so well I guess you'll be out on your hulk roam later today right ?

the basic point here - if it has to be explained to the 12 year olds in the group - is that the difference between a miner and a combat ship is pretty large... given all the rest is the same. We have intel, they have intel, however that difference is WHY YOU DONT ROAM IN A HULK.

That difference should be paid for, not made the bastard redheaded stepchild of eve.

I really can't see how anyone with a 3rd year education can't see that.
Perhaps a nice graph ?

But you're right, I accused the dude above of being a troll - because I ... silly me ... assumed he was intelligent enough to really get this and therefore must be a troll...

Perhaps you're just stupid... my apologies.

.
Velicitia
XS Tech
#15 - 2011-11-10 12:23:07 UTC
Well, Mr. Rising,

You're right, I don't roam in a hulk. I'm partial to battle-badgers Smile. In all seriousness though, I have done a bit of pew pew in industrial-oriented ships. You're right in saying that they're not ideal for it ... but when has a merchant vessel *EVER* been an ideal platform against ganks? (see: WWII and the German U-boat wolfpacks for RL example).

You're also right that not *everyone* is part of a large organisation -- but how many SMALL organisations (especially mining/industry) live in a given system/constellation, hm?

10 small (10-man) organisations have just as many people as that single 100-man organisation ... it just takes a little more :effort: to get them working together...

One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia
Gronn
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#16 - 2011-11-10 12:59:40 UTC
Kietay Ayari wrote:
Defence while mining: Don't go afk, stay in motion aligned towards something, even a bookmark you have made. It will be like magic how you somehow never die. As for the rewards? D: That sucks.


I'm not a miner (but we have all mined at least once), but I have to ask, how do you stay in motion if you have more than one asteroid targeted? Do you just orbit the center rock?
Velicitia
XS Tech
#17 - 2011-11-10 13:22:21 UTC
Gronn wrote:
Kietay Ayari wrote:
Defence while mining: Don't go afk, stay in motion aligned towards something, even a bookmark you have made. It will be like magic how you somehow never die. As for the rewards? D: That sucks.


I'm not a miner (but we have all mined at least once), but I have to ask, how do you stay in motion if you have more than one asteroid targeted? Do you just orbit the center rock?


get on top of a rock (few KM away).
align to safespot
continue mining whilst flying towards the SS at a few m/sec
when you get near max range, align to a SS in the other direction
repeat.

One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia
Scrapyard Bob
EVE University
Ivy League
#18 - 2011-11-10 15:25:10 UTC
Kietay Ayari wrote:
Nuh uh. I don't think one should make more than the other, but I do think mining should make more than it does now! I have no idea how they could fix this besides magically removing all the bots though! Maybe Once an asteroid is depleted it has a chance to drop a super dense core that can be refined into a large amount of minerals of your choice! Asteroids in highsec drop rarely!


Removal of bots.
Lower the reprocessing return of modules/ships by 5%.
Removal of more bots.
Mission runners get less clutter loot to reprocess (Meta0 items, mostly).
Reduce the amount of drone poo that drops.
Move more ore into grav sites.
Remove some more bots.

Basically, if you want mineral prices to go up - you need to reduce supply. However, that could upend a lot of things as ships and other items would suddenly become more expensive.
Revolution Rising
Last-Light Holdings
#19 - 2011-11-10 15:28:20 UTC
Velicitia wrote:
Well, Mr. Rising,

You're right, I don't roam in a hulk. I'm partial to battle-badgers Smile. In all seriousness though, I have done a bit of pew pew in industrial-oriented ships. You're right in saying that they're not ideal for it ... but when has a merchant vessel *EVER* been an ideal platform against ganks? (see: WWII and the German U-boat wolfpacks for RL example).

You're also right that not *everyone* is part of a large organisation -- but how many SMALL organisations (especially mining/industry) live in a given system/constellation, hm?

10 small (10-man) organisations have just as many people as that single 100-man organisation ... it just takes a little more :effort: to get them working together...


Look the point of that part of the conversation is that mining ships are less combat able than combat ships - derrr. So therefore there should be some compensation for the risk involved as opposed to what ratters have to manage.

Any discussion saying they are the same are made by either trolls or complete inbred idiots.

There's zero use in continuing this line of thought.

Large organisations by definition are better defended than small ones (safety in numbers - for the peanut gallery once again). However, many people prefer a smaller organisation in which to play for various reasons ranging from not just being a number, to being able to pvp with small gangs rather than large.

Keeping things the same might be well and good for many people who have independant incomes in game - it might even be better for ccp - I notice the prices of plexes only rises.

However, it doesn't make for a good mining experience.

Many of us take a more holistic view of our time online. We extrapolate upon our actions with regard to the butterfly effect. It makes us feel better to be mining rather than ratting/missioning. Knowing the minerals we collect are used for this or that, or even creating those new products ourselves and selling those in specific areas of the game to help our respective corps/alliances.

It would be nice to have the risk rewarded, rather than having the extra risk we take on by flying mining vessels poopoo'd by CCP and the peanut gallery/trolls.

This was the point of the conversation.

I totally agree that increasing yield is not the answer.
Increasing minerals required for ships is not the answer.
Having belts only be able to be scanned down rather than static belts might help for a while, but I dare say the botting programs would adapt ?

Possibly a mix of these approaches might help ?

.
Abdiel Kavash
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#20 - 2011-11-10 15:37:21 UTC
Revolution Rising wrote:
yeah I'm not new...

I was talking more about the fact that if you have 2 groups, one that can defend themselves, another who can't... They both go out into the same system and make money, don't you think just from a gameplay point of view that the guy who can't defend himself and is totally geared towards making money should make more than the guy in the combat ship ?

Just as a general principle?


Not groups of people. Two groups of activities. One activity yields decent ISK/hour, can be performed in a decent ship, and interfaces well skill-wise with other areas (say, combat). Second activity gives poor returns, is done in a ship which dies if someone looks at you the wrong way, and requires months of training which do not benefit anything outside said activity.

Yet every day hundreds and hundreds of people consciously choose the second one.

WHY!?

That's your reason why mining is so pitiful in terms of ISK. Because people are for some strange reason still willing to do it for the little ISK to be made. EVE is a player-driven economy. This means that as long as there are people willing to mine at 15 MISK/hour, mining will make you 15 MISK per hour. If they instead of whining on the forums started doing something else, the supply of "cheap" minerals would soon be exhausted, and the value of minerals - and the profit from mining - would increase.
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