Player Features and Ideas Discussion

Someone needs to make a "nerf T3s" thread.


Modularity doesn't make up for cost, since you can only have one fit at a time, and since rigs can't be removed without destroying them, saying you can change the subsystems and the fit means nothing. To change the fit you need to destroy the rigs (which are often T2, and therefore run about 100m total). This, combined with not being able to swap subs in a POS, means that the modulaity of T3s is somewhat reduced.

T3s don't outclass T3 ships, the one exception is T3 boosting subsystem, which I have said before needs to be brought in line with Command ships.

HACs suck, so if T3s are worse than HACs T3s wouldn't be worth the 400m+ they cost.

Buff HACs, rebalance Command ships THEN WE CAN TALK ABOUT T3s. CCP stated they are going to start at the bottom and work their way up, so let them finish with T2 ships first, then we can work on T3s. After all, how can you rebalance T3s to not be better than T2s without knowing how good T2 ships will be?

This isn't a nerf T3s thread, so lets finish with HACs before we jump on the T3 bandwagon.

makes up for sentries not being able to mitigate traversal (burning away / towards). So sentries should go back to not being able to hit **** all? only pulse / beam zealots get to hit frigs from range? shut up

I agree with the last point. This isn't a nerf T3s thread. It'll be a lot easier for Rise to get the right message from us if we keep it constructive and on topic. Everyone knows that T3s are going to be looked at, Command ships are coming Soon(TM), and :Cynabal:. The issue that needs to be addressed is the fact that the rebalancing passes so far have left the HACs even more 'out in the cold' than they were before the tiericide initiative began.

Everyone knows that HACs currently are stupidly overpriced for the performance. Gains in T1 'value for ISK' have far outstripped them in almost every aspect. My concern is not what these hulls end up costing, it's whether or not the re-balancing creates hulls that are worth buying at all. Over on Jesters Trek Ripard has a post called "Twice as expensive, 25% better." I suggest that you go give it a read, if you haven't already. It pretty much sums up the financial concerns that have arisen from the rebalancing that has been done to date.

We understand that T2s are not meant to be straight-up BETTER in every way than T1/Navy, but they NEED some compelling advantage that makes the hull worth the a) training time and b) 8-10x cost increase. It's sad that several of the proposed 'balanced' HACs STILL underperform to the Navy variants which cost half as much. No, not sad: PATHETIC.

When most pilots look at the Heavy Assault Cruiser lineup, they immediately think about raw combat capability. With very few exceptions ( :cough: Zealot! :cough:) the ability to effectively assault in these hulls is no more inspiring than in the new T1s.

An example of a T3 dominating the HAC equivalent is the HAM Legion vs the Sacrilege.

This is not a "T3s are so OP" post but to show how the "specialization" of a HAC is being neutralized by the "generalized" ship.

Sacrilege bonuses (including the proposed changes):
Role Bonus: 50% reduction in MicroWarpdrive signature radius penalty

Amarr Cruiser Skill Bonus:
5% bonus to Assault Missile damage
4% bonus to all armor resistances per level

Heavy Assault Cruiser Skill Bonus:
5% reduction of capacitor recharge time
5% bonus to Missile Launcher rate of fire per level

HAM Legion:
Amarr Strategic Cruiser Skill Bonus:
5% Reduction in the amount of heat damage absorbed by modules per level

Legion Defensive - Adaptive Augmenter
4% bonus to all armor resistances per level
10% bonus to remote armor repair system effectiveness per level

Legion Engineering - Capacitor Regeneration Matrix
5% bonus to capacitor recharge time per level

Legion Offensive - Assault Optimization
5% bonus to heavy assault missile damage per level
5% bonus to missile launcher rate of fire per level

Legion Propulsion - Wake Limiter
5% reduction in microwarpdrive signature radius penalty per level

Legion Electronics - Tactical Targeting Network
15% bonus to scan resolution per level

So the Legion is able to have every single bonus the Sacrilege has and at the same amounts (excluding the new MWD bonus which would be 25% on the Legion and 50% given to the Sacrilege) along with additional bonuses for remote reps and scan resolution (or any of the other Electronics subsystems, I chose this one for slot layout reasons that will follow).

Going beyond the bonuses you'll see the Legion comes out ahead in most stats also:

Sacrilege vs Legion (using all 5s for skills)
6 vs 6 High Slots
4 vs 4 Mid Slots
5 vs 6 Low Slots
2 vs 3 Rig Slots
5 vs 5 Launcher Hardpoints
500 vs 550 CPU
1437.50 vs 1612.50 Powergrid
1,750 vs 2,875 Shield HP
2,625 vs 4,250 Armor HP
2,113 vs 2,443 Hull HP
Resists are equal
2,578.13 vs 2,906.25 Capacitor Capacity
251.25 vs 239.06 Capacitor Recharge Time (Smaller is better and with the larger cap pool it makes this even greater)
62,500m vs 75,000m Max Targeting Range
390mm vs 557.81mm Scan Resolution
140m vs 154m Signature Radius (advantage Sacrilege)
.382725 vs .380025 Inertia Modifer
11,750,000 vs 12,815,000 Mass (advantage Sacrilege)
6.23 vs 6.75 seconds calculated Warp Align Time (advantage Sacrilege)
250 vs 218.75 m/s Max Velocity (advantage Sacrilege)
615 vs 300 m3 Cargo Capacity (advantage Sacrilege)
50 vs 0 m3 Drone Bay Capacity (advantage Sacrilege)
50 vs 0 Drone Bandwidth (advantage Sacrilege)

The Sacrilege does come out with an advantage in the mobility and supporting up to a flight of Medium drones but falls short in the remaining numbers.

The Legion gets all of the Sacrilege bonuses plus additional ones.

I have difficulty spotting the Specialty vs Generalization here.

This is all just the hull vs hull/subsystems so there is no faction modding being taken into account here. The Legion is still more expensive, would be about 2-3x the price.

Cost and SP risk should be considered and I'm not saying the Sacrilege should beat out the HAM Legion by any means, just that there needs to be some role variation between the two otherwise it comes down to just money and SP which is not good balancing.

Looking at the other HACs vs T3 subsystems it looks like the same general issue remains. The T3s can match the HAC bonuses and carry more along with.

Zealot
Amarr Cruiser Skill Bonus:
10% bonus to Medium Energy Turret capacitor use
5% bonus to Medium Energy Turret rate of fire per level
Heavy Assault Cruiser Skill Bonus:
10% bonus to Medium Energy Turret optimal range
5% bonus to Medium Energy Turret damage per level

Legion Offensive - Liquid Crystal Magnifier (not a perfect match losing the RoF for a larger Damage bonus but very close and only a single Subsystem needed to do it, leaving the 4 others open to whatever you want)
10% bonus to medium energy turret capacitor use per level
10% bonus to medium energy turret damage per level
10% bonus to medium energy turret optimal range per level

Cerberus
Caldari Cruiser Skill Bonus:
5% bonus to Kinetic Missile damage
10% bonus to Missile velocity per level
Heavy Assault Cruiser Skill Bonus:
10% bonus to Assault Missile and Heavy Missile flight time
5% bonus to Missile Launcher rate of fire per level

Tengu Offensive - Accelerated Ejection Bay (again one Subsystem close to a full match of a whole ship, you lose some flight time but get higher Rate of Fire)
5% bonus to Kinetic Missile Damage per level
7.5% bonus to Heavy, Heavy Assault and Rapid Light missile launcher rate of fire per level
10% bonus to Heavy Missile and Heavy Assault missile velocity per level

Eagle it does take 2 subsystems but all bonuses are matched
Caldari Cruiser Skill Bonus:
10% bonus to Medium Hybrid Turret optimal range per level
4% bonus to shield resistances per level.
Heavy Assault Cruiser Skill Bonus:
10% bonus to Medium Hybrid Turret optimal range
5% bonus to Medium Hybrid Turret damage per level

Tengu Defensive - Adaptive Shielding
4% bonus to all shield resistances per level
10% bonus to shield transporter effectiveness per level
Tengu Offensive - Magnetic Infusion Basin
5% bonus to medium hybrid turret damage per level
20% bonus to medium hybrid turret optimal range per level

Proteus and Loki subsystems look to not match up as much to their racial HACs but still have options for similar bonuses and often again only take 1 of the 5 subsystems to do so.

So since HACs are the ones getting the attention, as others have stated, they need to be given a role that makes them stand out from the other ship choices.

They would end up tanking better than T3's do now ... OP to say the least

Only mentioned it to underline how woefully inadequate the HAC proposal and role definition is.

Continuing the proposal:

Strike:

ZEALOT: The Amarr military recommended the Zealot be be upgraded to the latest engine and signature reduction technology to maximize the already impressive weapon guidance systems.

Role Bonus: 150% Incease to Afterburner speed bonus

Amarr Cruiser Bonuses:
10% bonus to Medium Energy Turret capacitor
5% bonus to Medium Energy Turret rate of fire

Heavy Assault Cruiser Bonuses:
10% bonus to Medium Energy Turret optimal range
5% bonus to Medium Energy Turret damage

Slot layout: 6H, 3M, 7L;
Max velocity: 240
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 60km / 306 / 5
Sensor strength: 14 Radar
Signature radius: 120

---

CERBERUS: The Caldari Navy has repurposed the Cerberus into a fast stike platform, optimized for hit & run tactics

Role Bonus: 150% Incease to Afterburner speed bonus

Caldari Cruiser Bonuses:
5% bonus to Heavy Assault, Heavy Missile and Light Missile damage
10% bonus to Missile velocity

Heavy Assault Cruiser Bonuses:
5% to Max Velocity
5% bonus to Missile Launcher rate of fire

Slot layout: 6H, 6M, 4L;
Max velocity: 220
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 0 / 0
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 80km / 282 / 5
Sensor strength: 16 Gravimetric
Signature radius: 125

---

DEIMOS: The Gallente pulled out all the stops in creating their quest for the ultimate fast Hybrid platform.
(Roll the MWD capacitor bonus into the hull.)

Role Bonus: -80% to MicroWarpdrive signature Radius Penalty

Gallente Cruiser Bonuses:
5% bonus to Medium Hybrid Turret damage
5% to Agility

Heavy Assault Cruiser Bonuses:
10% bonus to Medium Hybrid Turret falloff
5% Medium Hybrid Turret damage

Slot layout: 6H, 4M, 6L; 6 turrets
Mx velocity: 210
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 25 / 25 (+1 turret)
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 60km / 270 / 5
Sensor strength: 14 Magnetometric
Signature radius: 120

---

VAGABOND: Formerly the king of skirmishing, recent advances forced the Minmatar scientists to completely redesign the Vagabond's propulsion system. The results were stunning.
(Roll the max speed into the hull.)

Role Bonus: 80% reduction in MicroWarpdrive signature radius penalty

Minmatar Cruiser Bonuses:
5% bonus to Medium Projectile Turret rate of fire
5% bonus to Medium Projectile Turret Optimal

Heavy Assault Cruiser Bonuses:
10% bonus to Medium Projectile Turret falloff
5% bonus to Medium Projectile Turret damage

Slot layout: 6H, 5M, 5L;
Max velocity: 299
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 0 / 0
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 60km / 330 / 5
Sensor strength: 14 Ladar
Signature radius: 110

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Thoughts?

Tank better, but average damage and less mobility. Final word is up to CCP, but they need to do SOMETHING well...

"Between tech 1 cruisers and ABC's, kitting and high mobility is the only viable role I see for HAC's. Scirrmishing and guerrilla warfare is where they should excel."<------this

Hopefully CCP Rise will think ooohhh.. we can combine the resilience obsession they have with the Vaga style combat we want and some extra dps on top as god knows they need these things badly.
Especially the Eagle it wants to be a blaster Vaga really come on Rise you know you want to ... maybe it will give the Talos some competition..