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How to get carebears to pvp

First post
Ash Katara
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#81 - 2013-07-22 05:33:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Ash Katara
I am likely, by your definition a Carebear. I have played EVE off and on since beta and spent almost all of my time in High-Sec space aside from a some time back in 2003-2004 with my other characters first corp. At that time the average server population was about 5000. From my point of view there are several barriers to PvP for your average Carebear.

No Early Intro to PvP:
The first barrier is that new players are not introduced to PvP right away. Solving that would be a huge first step. Perhaps a new tutorial and a new approach to Faction Warfare which I will get in to later.

Hard Divisions of Space:
The second barrier is the current High-Sec, Low-Sec, Null-Sec tier approach to separating space. These hard lines, which are typically separated by just a few choke point systems, are a huge deterrent for players thinking of making the transition to the more PvP oriented areas a space.

One solution to this barrier would be to open some new avenues in to Low-Sec, which allowing greater opportunity to avoid gate camps. This will **** of gate campers, but to them I would ask, would you rater sit in your ambush and wait for those few adventurous players willing to risk the ambush or have a larger player presence in Low-Sec to mix it up with?

A second solution to this barrier would be to eliminate the tiered separation of space in EVE. A more gradual reduction of security tied to the systems security rating, would help ease players in to PvP. Either more tiers or the elimination of tiers would work. If there was a smoother reduction in the penalties for PvP, combined with a reduction of actual and perceived safety as the systems security ratings decrease. This would give players a more gradual exposure to PvP.

No Reward for the Risk:
The last barrier I see is that there is little to no reward for participation in PvP, particularly casual or spontaneous PvP, which is what I think the OP was talking about. I get isk and modules when I kill NPC, and I can generally kill many NPC before I start to put myself at much risk. PvP comes with a lot of risk, most of it currently is very one sided towards those already embracing the PvP aspects of EVE, and if I win I might get a a few modules, some cargo, and some isk if the other player had a bounty.

I really thing the solution here is to revamp faction warfare. My current understanding of FW is that it has become dominated by large groups and those which are more organized dominate. Perhaps we could change FW is a few ways to make it more appealing. Perhaps disputed systems should have a large NPC presence at each factions entrance in to disputed systems to allow safe entry and then shift the focus to specific sites within the system.

Another change could be to build FW missions which put players in to these contested sites to perform either specific tasks or to just combat players from the opposing faction. These sites could also have ship restrictions so that players can be matched with other players of similar or equivalent ships. So a L1 FW mission would send players to sites restricted to Frigates and Destroyer class ships, a L2 FW mission would send players to site with ship restrictions of Battle Cruisers and lowers classed ships, L3 FW missions restricted to BS and lower class ships and L4 would be anything goes.
Kitty Bear
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#82 - 2013-07-22 10:19:27 UTC
Yaturi wrote:
Kitty Bear wrote:
Yaturi wrote:

Most prospective pvpers don't pvp because they don't want to lose their 500mil learning implant sets

This skill says your wrong.

What happens when you jump clone. Think please.

they don't lose their 500m implants when podded

fucks sake. how is that hard to understand
Azn Empire
#83 - 2013-07-22 10:22:26 UTC
Kitty Bear wrote:
Yaturi wrote:
Kitty Bear wrote:
Yaturi wrote:

Most prospective pvpers don't pvp because they don't want to lose their 500mil learning implant sets

This skill says your wrong.

What happens when you jump clone. Think please.

they don't lose their 500m implants when podded

fucks sake. how is that hard to understand
Thanks man, that made me lol in rl.
Some people, jeez. Lol

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.

Zan Shiro
Alternative Enterprises
#84 - 2013-07-22 10:52:47 UTC
Mag's wrote:
Some people, jeez. Lol

funny thing is one day when they have that mythical perfect sp they have in mind to pvp its not like it gets cheaper. Yay for them, they have all thier level 5's done. Clone still gets expensive. Now its hardwire costs (since chances are good your opponent may have them and the same level 5's you do). And the clone upgrade replacement costs.

I personally found pvp more enjoyable as a low sp noob tbh. Cheap death in cheap ships, probably the best time I had in 0.0. 2 +3's for the stats controlling the skill training at the time and it worked well enough. Not saying if I returned to pvp I'd avoid a suicide frig roam. Will say at current upkeep costs I'd play it more conservative than when a low sp player.

Why I feel bad for these people. they are depriving themselves of some low sp carefrees and fun times. get to fleet bs and cap level, man this game gets to be unfun in some places quick as hell with all the internet spaceships is serious business crap.
Pytria Le'Danness
Placid Reborn
#85 - 2013-07-22 12:09:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Pytria Le'Danness
This character used to PvP. After joining EVE I quickly moved to low sec, mainly because the missions there paid MUCH better. But being in low sec PvPing was easy to get and fun to do. The corp I'm in flew regular roams and much fun was to be had. Missions became a means to finance the inevitable losses.

Then carriers were introduced. It became harder and harder to get a fair fight, because when you thought you had an even fight someone lit a cyno and anyone who could not run away died.

I don't mind dying, you win some, you lose some. But being totally blabbed every time you think you have a decent fight, that absolutely takes the fun out of it.

THAT is the main reason I don't really PvP any more - it's no fun for me. If you want to get people into PvP, you need to give them something back, not just blow their ship up.
Soylent Jade
Goonswarm Federation
#86 - 2013-07-22 12:39:21 UTC
Maldiro Selkurk wrote:
supernova ranger wrote:
By nature of their definition, carebears, and their counterpart nullbear, do not do PVP. They stick to PVE and never participate in PVP on their own volition.

You should have just ended your post here, this hits it on the head. We don't want to pvp. I know a certain percentage of you pvp'rs just cannot get that point into your heads but really is "We don't want to pvp" a concept that is so intellectually elusive that you must post these sorts of suggestions ad nauseam?

^^^This. I'd bet at some point 99% of the people playing this game have experienced PvP in some form, in either this game or some other game. They have decided they don't like it, for what ever reason.

Making hisec Catalyst at a time

supernova ranger
The End of Eternity
#87 - 2013-07-22 13:22:12 UTC  |  Edited by: supernova ranger
I guess no one read my entire post... Not one person commented on micro tournaments... But moving on...

Eve is Eve, for all it's faults, drawbacks, and blessings I had no intention of trying to suggest "fixing" any part of the game. I think I can best describe the concept of what I was trying to formulate in my post with a comparison to eating you meal...

When you sit down at a restaurant, your handed a menu (Eve and an understanding of it) and then get the chance to order. Suppose while your browsing the menu and a stranger beside you gets his meal and it looks good (ships blow up in pve and pvp and with EVE graphics - it always looks good). So now order, will you choose your own item? Will his choice influence yours? It may not change your mind but if it does influence you, and when applied to the masses, more PvP will occur because there more focus on it from the players.

It also help with immersion because even though your relatively safe, you get to "see" what's happening in lowsec and the disparity between non-secure and secure space at least in looks become more similar.

Micro-tournaments were just a way to get players to hone their PvP skills and get reputation for their alliance outside of wardecking and insecure space. They can't go to war because it puts their industrial at risk and I think insecure space takes too much time out of pve and runs a risk of disappointment that will make them bitter about wasting their time. This risk is magnified when you don't know the terrain, the people in it, and the logistics of getting a good fight on top of other issues that strongly devoted pve players that dabble in pvp may encounter.

It also helps with immersion because it brings younger players parallel to top veterans by letting them participate. I'd say let the micro-tourny champion, if they have not been to an actual eve tourny before, have their choice of ships for one round and a free ticket to the competition on top of being ranked against each other while it progresses indefinitely (ie, wins and loses from over 30 days ago don't count towards rankings).
Vaeldan Athargan
#88 - 2013-07-22 14:39:58 UTC
You want Carebears to PVP? Allow two skills to train at once: One for making ISK, another for PVP pew pew.

Express Hauler
#89 - 2013-07-22 14:51:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Lipbite
I don't need PvP in EVE because I don't like strategies. I can tolerate (certain parts of) EVE PvE - and that's it. There is no method to change my personal preferences about strategy games.

And now I'm logging back into APB Reloaded to shoot people and dream about EVE with WiS module and 3rd person view shooting...

edit: (certain parts of)
Eternity INC.
Goonswarm Federation
#90 - 2013-07-22 15:17:43 UTC
The premise of this thread is about as silly as trying to force PVP players to join a mining fleet and bust rocks, or do some invention and build things.

So, you're a bounty hunter. No, that ain't it at all. Then what are you? I'm a bounty hunter.


Eve Vegas 2015 Pub Crawl Group 9

Houston EVE Meet

Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#91 - 2013-07-22 16:06:40 UTC
RoAnnon wrote:
The premise of this thread is about as silly as trying to force PVP players to join a mining fleet and bust rocks, or do some invention and build things.

I agree, it requires some translation in order to make sense.

As a metaphor, I use this:

For PvP, substitute gamble.

Lots of people go to casinos, and many of them enjoy the thrill of wagering on the various games of chance offered.
There is also a good number of people who cannot afford to play these games, as in many cases they will not realistically keep winning. They simply run out of money.

This does not mean the games are not fun, but it does mean not everyone can play in a practical manner.

Now, the just for fun variety of games does exist, where no money is at risk. These games have an initial purchase price, and can be played in the safety of a familiar environment.

Should the casino offer more just for fun games, or the home player suddenly have unlimited money, this arbitrary obstacle to play can be overcome.
Draconian Arcane
Band of Super Snowflakes
#92 - 2013-07-22 16:10:06 UTC
Easiest way for CCP to get carebears to pvp is to takeaway NPC's altogether... That's saying CCP would want to get carebears to pvp... And have players make their own missions via contract, (kill this many of so and so corp/alliance then this will be your reward)

The idea to get carebears to pvp would be to invite easy kills with ridiculous fits onto someones KB's... For those pvpers who lack skill, this would be inviting news and an awesome opportunity... For the newly turned pvper/carebear, this would ultimately end their eve experience...

I see no good for CCP or to the PVP players to MAKE carebears PVP...

I would think if there is an alliance or corporation that has a problem with their own pilots who like to rat and make iskies but wont go out on pvp ops or to at least take a stab at pvp solo, then they should boot the undesirable... There are plenty of other corporations and alliances out there that will gladly take those mission runners and ratters, so you do not have to feel obligated in any way to shelter or take care of your carebear or carebear corp...

Plus its always healthy to have a few dedicated mission runners in a corporation... Those rental fee's and POS's are not going to pay for themselves you know...

If you want to turn your carebear into a pvper, introduce them to a t1 frigate with a proper fit... A single run of a lvl 4 mission can pay for a few dozen frigates fully fit and thats saying they lose that few dozen... easy win either way....

Have fun, I'm outtie....
Silent Rambo
Orion Positronics
#93 - 2013-07-22 18:15:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Silent Rambo
I'll PvP when they do two things:

1. Remove learning implants.

2. Reduce clone costs.

Then all I'm risking is actual combat worthy assets when I roam. Not other stupid crap to keep my SP in check and not fall behind. Until then, I feel dirty missing out on potential SP. Its basically what we pay for, and not having it maxed feels like a waste of money. SP = Gametime = $$$.

You really think someone would do that? Just log into EvE and tell lies?

DTson Gauur
#94 - 2013-07-22 19:38:53 UTC
I've been on both sides of the fence, from solo/small gang/huge ass sov capital fleets pvp to solo/incursion fleet pve.

The thing is as many have said:

PvP as it is, is not fun anymore. It's not really pvp at all, it's more like PvG (Player vs GANK) or in the case of nullsec sov fights FvF (Fleet vs Fleet)

I actually checked before replying when my last PLAYER vs PLAYER kill/loss was, it's in september 2011 , yes, almost 2 years ago was my last real solo kill, all after that are more or less GANKS / Fleet action.

I understand that this is an MMO (as in multiplayer) but this is also a _sandbox_ (says so in the description even.), so why shouldn't I be able to have fun in the pewpew side of the sandbox? I love to fly solo, but doing so in the current environment is just asking to be ganked if you're looking for fights.

At the same time I admit that the current PvE side of this game isn't fun either anymore. I haven't really played for half a year now, just been changing skills and hoping that CCP gets off their bums and creates some new and exciting content.
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#95 - 2013-07-22 21:46:21 UTC

Seriously, the best way to get ANYONE to PvP, is to give them an incentive to fight.

Every "vulnerable" target in a system can either warp to a POS and safe up the moment someone comes into local, or are 5+ million EHP structures that require a 30 man gang to even think about engaging. We need small-scale targets, that a single pilot can take out.

Example: Moon Mining Deflector - A device your enemy deploys near your moongoo harvesting POS that steals a percentage of the moongoo harvested from the moon each cycle. Give it like 10k EHP, so a solo pilot in a AF can take it out within minutes.

Example: Player-Created Incursion Device - A device you anchor and online. If you successfully online it, it creates incursion-like effects in the system for several hours (lower bounties, stronger rats, lower dps, etc). The locals have 15 minutes to stop it from onlining, or they deal with irreversible "incursion effects" for several hours thereafter.

Gimme more Cynos
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#96 - 2013-07-22 22:10:28 UTC
Why is it so hard to get?

If one doesn't want to PvP, he won't engage in PvP.

PvP is lame in this game anyway. Blob or get Blob'ed Arrow nice1.
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#97 - 2013-07-22 23:19:12 UTC
Kitty Bear wrote:

they don't lose their 500m implants when podded

fucks sake. how is that hard to understand

Ok. Youre clever. I get it.

But who are we talking about, pvpers or carebears.

Im holding up oranges here and you still wanna say apples.

That fact still remains, remove or cheapen learning implants and you will see more carebears leaving their high sec caves.
Casual Slackers
#98 - 2013-07-22 23:40:57 UTC
I am a so called carebear..

I dont pvp EVER, I dont even relay information ( locations, ships etc etc )
I dont want it, I dont need it and that *BEEP* should stay out of my way and leave me alone.
I just want a calm game! ( because of some players I'd actually accept playing the game all alone if it were possible )

We highsec dwellers are already limited/restricted in more ways the one in terms what we can do ( certain ships cant be flown as an example )

There was a time where I had a few accounts flying around but I dont even do that anymore.
They only things keeping me in this game are the visuals and the actual learning process. ( the later is for some reason very addictive to me )
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#99 - 2013-07-22 23:50:45 UTC
As for cheapening or removing learning implants,

NEITHER option must be retconned.

For cheapening you could say new emergent technology has brought cost down.

So think of paying 5 mill for a full slot layout of plus 5s. (that sounds decent to me)

For removal, you could say another Yulai metting has deemed all learning implants illegal (insert reason)

Nothing has to be change in the history of EVE for this or that to happen
Kitty Bear
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#100 - 2013-07-23 00:32:55 UTC
no you specified their cost as a barrier to engaging in pvp
a cost which is easily bypassed with 1 skill

if you mean 'enhanced SP acquisition times' due to implants, then say so, don't blather on about isk
and even then, I suspect you are still wrong in a majority of cases

people who don't pvp, don't pvp because they don't enjoy pvp
how exactly do you force someone to enjoy something that they don't enjoy

I eagerly await your enlightening & informed reply.