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So why do people hate cloaking?

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Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#521 - 2013-07-22 18:19:51 UTC
Plastic Psycho wrote:
Kijo Rikki wrote:
Plastic Psycho wrote:

BTW: An AFK Cloaker is a very solid counter to strangers in the system. Better yet, a cloaker who isn't AFK. Nothing like a spread of Combat Probes to put the wind up a strange fleet. Twisted


Truth. We had a bunch of small solar-wing and I think VoC roaming gangs a few weekends ago. I hopped out in my buzzard and dropped combat probes, split them on the gate. The system cleared out pretty well in 5 minutes, but I went afk anyway. When I got back I ran down the list on my intel channels and noted everyone bugged out or went around my system. Lol

Amazing, the power of fear. Pirate


Fear leads to anger! Anger leads to hate! Hate... leads to shitposting!

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Soko99
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#522 - 2013-07-22 18:27:16 UTC
Rishna Katar wrote:
stuff



let's call a spade a spade here.. You don't want the ability to tell if a player is AFK or not.. What you want is the ability to tell if the player is NOT AFK.
Plastic Psycho
Necro-Economics
#523 - 2013-07-22 18:27:59 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:

Fear leads to anger! Anger leads to hate! Hate... leads to shitposting
!

Shocked
Nooooo...!


Lol
Soko99
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#524 - 2013-07-22 18:32:28 UTC
Far Hone wrote:
Steve Ronuken wrote:

When they're AFK, no threat at all.

When they come back from getting a sandwich, or the cinema, or a day out with the kids, that's when they're dangerous. And you can't know when they're back. As there's no status change whether they're there or not. (Their danger is mostly due to Cynos. By themselves they can't do /that/ much)

And don't point at wormholes as evidence that it's fine.

You can't hot drop people in wormholes.


How about a timer on the cloaker?

Or, a random event that can cause a ship to de-cloak? The random event can be mitigated by the level of cloaking skills.

Just a thought.



that exists.. called logging in and logging out.. as well as using intel to get them on their way to your system..

Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#525 - 2013-07-22 18:34:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Lucas Kell
Jenn aSide wrote:
Lucas Kell wrote:
Since there is no "right" or "wrong" in this case, there really truly is no benefit to continuing to argue.


Buit there is a right or wrong. Wrong is wanting to change something not because it's bad but only because you don't like it. Right (ie, what the rest of us are doing) in this situation is saying that the game provides enough tools (that weak people refuse to use) and that if there is a problem, it is only a problem with player's mindsets, not the game itself.


Quote:

CCP just need to add a poll feature and this could be dealt with easily. 1 vote per person on the matter and they would see which side is more supported.


The problem with democracy is that it works great till people figure out they can just vote themselves money from the treasury. This is the exact same situation.

In a case like this, CCP is more obligated to provide a good game than bow to the ignorant whims of people who can't figure out a video game.

Quote:

When asked for 3 words that describe eve players on the questionnaire, my first was "Opinionated". These threads show that to be very true.
We have to be opinionated, not standing up and challenging stupidity is the exact same thing as saying stupidity is ok.

It's not. I rat in null sec all day long and the fact that I rarely get killed and rarely let other people disrupt me proves that this issue is not a problem. It is not my (or the game's) fault that other people can't figure that out.

Again though, this is opinion. You can't say you are right and everyone against you is wrong, that's arrogance plain and simple. There are people with opinions on both sides, neither is right or wrong.
You can;t say because it is change it is wrong because there have been thousands and thousands of changes made to EVE since it's beginning to change the way things work. In this case it would be in my opinion changing it for the better. In your opinion its a bad change. That's how thing stand, 2 opinions, no rights and wrongs.

There is a different between standing up for your opinions and being opinionated. Being opinionated is being arrogant about the worth of your opinions over others.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Soko99
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#526 - 2013-07-22 18:34:39 UTC
Speedkermit Damo wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Quote:
And yet it's the AFK cloakers and their shills that want 100% safety all the time.


No, many of us are just arguing that hurt feelings do not sum up having to change something that isn't broken.



No. AFK cloakers and their shills insist that AFK cloaking should remain 100% risk-free, while calling anyone who questions this inbalance a coward.

Double standards.

Probably the same people who complain about huge swathes of null-sec being empty of pilots.



FYI: I have never AFK cloaked in the 3 or so years I've played this game.
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#527 - 2013-07-22 18:38:13 UTC
Kijo Rikki wrote:
Ah yes. The afk cloaker assumes zero risk...that is until he is not afk and decides to uncloak on what he thinks, assumes, or hopes is an unsuspecting victim....funny thing is, that endeaver is not a 100% guarantee...there is indeed a risk.

But while he is afk he assumes no risk. You admit it. And that's the only bit we want to see changed. Once he's no longer AFK, his risk should remain unchanged.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Soko99
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#528 - 2013-07-22 18:42:22 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
Kijo Rikki wrote:
Ah yes. The afk cloaker assumes zero risk...that is until he is not afk and decides to uncloak on what he thinks, assumes, or hopes is an unsuspecting victim....funny thing is, that endeaver is not a 100% guarantee...there is indeed a risk.

But while he is afk he assumes no risk. You admit it. And that's the only bit we want to see changed. Once he's no longer AFK, his risk should remain unchanged.



So would you want this in WHs too? There's no local and sometimes, your only choice is to stay in the system AFK for hours on end, since if you logoff you decloak and thus give away your position. Same thing with logging in, you are on dscan for a quick second and a vigilant player will catch you logging in. There goes your intel gathering tool and/or your advantage since in a WH the residents have the advantage to begin with.
Kijo Rikki
Killboard Padding Services
#529 - 2013-07-22 18:43:15 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
Kijo Rikki wrote:
Ah yes. The afk cloaker assumes zero risk...that is until he is not afk and decides to uncloak on what he thinks, assumes, or hopes is an unsuspecting victim....funny thing is, that endeaver is not a 100% guarantee...there is indeed a risk.

But while he is afk he assumes no risk. You admit it. And that's the only bit we want to see changed. Once he's no longer AFK, his risk should remain unchanged.


He assumes no risk and he is no threat.

You make a valid point, good Sir or Madam. 
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#530 - 2013-07-22 18:44:05 UTC
Kijo Rikki wrote:
Speedkermit Damo wrote:

I agree with most of what you say. I am just of the opinion that it should not be possible to cloak up in a system for hours end end without running a risk of being scanned down and killed.


But I'm sure you're ok with me clone jumping into your station and sitting afk for hours on end without running the exact same risk. Or jumping in your system in a fast tackle ship and just chosing a safe and burning up and going afk for hours. The effect is the same, I assume no risk and I provide a reasonable doubt of security. At any moment I could return to my keyboard and uncloak, or undock in a hunter ship or suddenly warp to a pre-determined spot to fish for an unsuspecting victim. Yet while you seem to accept the risk of the latter two, you are unwilling to accept the risk of the former.

Yes, all he nullbears provide such a rich target environment for roaming gangs. Oh wait, no, they dock up anytime one pokes its head into system. Good fight, I guess. Roll

Docking is not comparable. There is a single point of exit for a docker and he can't cloak on undock. An interdictor can keep him in station and anyone in station or on grid with the station can see him undock. A cloaked player has an infinite number of entries and is in complete control of the initiation of aggro.

They would provide more targets if they weren't camped out 23/7.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#531 - 2013-07-22 18:45:24 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:


Again though, this is opinion. You can't say you are right and everyone against you is wrong, that's arrogance plain and simple. There are people with opinions on both sides, neither is right or wrong.
You can;t say because it is change it is wrong because there have been thousands and thousands of changes made to EVE since it's beginning to change the way things work. In this case it would be in my opinion changing it for the better. In your opinion its a bad change. That's how thing stand, 2 opinions, no rights and wrongs.

There is a different between standing up for your opinions and being opinionated. Being opinionated is being arrogant about the worth of your opinions over others.


Why post just to say "I have no real argument to put forth so I'm just going to cop out"? Because that's what you just did.

CCP has said that afk cloaking is not a bad thing on multiple occasions on other sections of these forums.

I, an experienced null sec PVEr, and many others have demonstrated multiple ways to negate AFK cloaker's influence (if what they are doing can be nullified so easily then, how can they be a problem?). I even posted a Fit. (there I go again, using the tools EVE gives me instead of begging for more, in this case, warp core stabs and FoF missiles plus sentry drones).

For several years people have petitioned cloakers and gotten no where. For years people have begged to CSM to raise the issue and been rejected.

The above are facts, not opinions. The fact is CCP has had 10 years to change what you think of as a problem, yet they have not. You disregard these facts because you don't think AFK cloaking is "fair". That's an emotional value judgement. My facts trump your emotions (at least for an rational observer).

Feel free to present facts that state the contrary, and I will review them.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#532 - 2013-07-22 18:45:46 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
Again though, this is opinion. You can't say you are right and everyone against you is wrong, that's arrogance plain and simple. There are people with opinions on both sides, neither is right or wrong.
You can;t say because it is change it is wrong because there have been thousands and thousands of changes made to EVE since it's beginning to change the way things work. In this case it would be in my opinion changing it for the better. In your opinion its a bad change. That's how thing stand, 2 opinions, no rights and wrongs.

There is a different between standing up for your opinions and being opinionated. Being opinionated is being arrogant about the worth of your opinions over others.


Nope. What you are trying to do, is just handwave it all and say "Oh well, difference of opinion!". You are trying to create some kind of equivalency between the two, as if you can prop up the wrong argument by saying that everything is just everyone's opinion.

Nevermind that all opinions are not created equal (an opinion not based in facts is properly called a delusion), but in this case it simply does not apply.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#533 - 2013-07-22 18:45:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Lucas Kell
Kijo Rikki wrote:
I agree, but it shouldn't take 30 minutes of us sitting on the undock waiting for a response to get this intel. Lol

I respect the ones that do, though I suspect the groups of people who do respond to a roaming gang are not as affected by an afk cloaker.

My old alliance would respond to a roam gang but not to a cloaker. Whats the point in trying to catch a cloaked nullified tengu. It's a waste of time to bother.

Kijo Rikki wrote:
I suspect the problem is two-fold: This particular class of player has no pvp ships ready to go, so when they get the intel they are frantically trying to buy ships and fits to counter, but due to a lack of general pvp experience, they may not be sure how to counter what they are seeing with their intel in the first place.

Most of them simply can't be bothered to time waste with someone that's just going to hide until he has a 100% chance of a kill and run.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Kijo Rikki
Killboard Padding Services
#534 - 2013-07-22 18:46:57 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:

Docking is not comparable. There is a single point of exit for a docker and he can't cloak on undock. An interdictor can keep him in station and anyone in station or on grid with the station can see him undock. A cloaked player has an infinite number of entries and is in complete control of the initiation of aggro.

They would provide more targets if they weren't camped out 23/7.


And how long is that interdictor going to sit there? How long are you going to hawkeye the guest list? How vigilant is your station eyes to wait hours and hours or days or even weeks for me ot make my move? How sure are you that you are going to see me when I make my move?

You're not. You have just as much control over a docked player as a cloaked one, I get to make the first move. I am in complete control of the initiation of aggro either way.

You make a valid point, good Sir or Madam. 
Kijo Rikki
Killboard Padding Services
#535 - 2013-07-22 18:47:53 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
Kijo Rikki wrote:
I agree, but it shouldn't take 30 minutes of us sitting on the undock waiting for a response to get this intel. Lol

I respect the ones that do, though I suspect the groups of people who do respond to a roaming gang are not as affected by an afk cloaker.

My old alliance would respond to a roam gang but not to a cloaker. Whats the point in trying to catch a cloaked nullified tengu. It's a waste of time to bother.


Oh, so you knew what it was and perceived it not ot be a threat? You realized if you could catch a cloaked nullified tengu you could eat it for breakfast, amirite?

You make a valid point, good Sir or Madam. 
Plastic Psycho
Necro-Economics
#536 - 2013-07-22 18:48:11 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
Kijo Rikki wrote:
Ah yes. The afk cloaker assumes zero risk...that is until he is not afk and decides to uncloak on what he thinks, assumes, or hopes is an unsuspecting victim....funny thing is, that endeaver is not a 100% guarantee...there is indeed a risk.

But while he is afk he assumes no risk. You admit it. And that's the only bit we want to see changed. Once he's no longer AFK, his risk should remain unchanged.

And how, pray tell, shall CCP determin he's AFK?

When I monitor a chokepoint, I don't monkey with the client. I just sit and watch. How will you know if *I* am AFK or not..? You can't know, one way or another. Neither can CCP.

Give over. Your cause is not only pointless, it's lost, too.
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#537 - 2013-07-22 18:49:17 UTC
Kijo Rikki wrote:
Lucas Kell wrote:

Docking is not comparable. There is a single point of exit for a docker and he can't cloak on undock. An interdictor can keep him in station and anyone in station or on grid with the station can see him undock. A cloaked player has an infinite number of entries and is in complete control of the initiation of aggro.

They would provide more targets if they weren't camped out 23/7.


And how long is that interdictor going to sit there? How long are you going to hawkeye the guest list? How vigilant is your station eyes to wait hours and hours or days or even weeks for me ot make my move? How sure are you that you are going to see me when I make my move?

You're not. You have just as much control over a docked player as a cloaked one, I get to make the first move. I am in complete control of the initiation of aggro either way.

What? Are you simple?
ONE POINT OF EXIT. If the null players PUT IN THE TIME to watch the exit, then they can keep safe. Notice that. PUT IN THE TIME. Something an AFK cloaker has the luxury of not having to do.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#538 - 2013-07-22 18:50:35 UTC
Plastic Psycho wrote:
Lucas Kell wrote:
Kijo Rikki wrote:
Ah yes. The afk cloaker assumes zero risk...that is until he is not afk and decides to uncloak on what he thinks, assumes, or hopes is an unsuspecting victim....funny thing is, that endeaver is not a 100% guarantee...there is indeed a risk.

But while he is afk he assumes no risk. You admit it. And that's the only bit we want to see changed. Once he's no longer AFK, his risk should remain unchanged.

And how, pray tell, shall CCP determin he's AFK?

When I monitor a chokepoint, I don't monkey with the client. I just sit and watch. How will you know if *I* am AFK or not..? You can't know, one way or another. Neither can CCP.

Give over. Your cause is not only pointless, it's lost, too.

Erm... no?
The suggestion was simple. Make a way to decloak and warp to a cloaker, but make it take time and be easily avoidable by an active cloaking player... Please read the thread before commenting with no clue.

There is no ability to WIN or LOSE an opinion based thread.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#539 - 2013-07-22 18:52:12 UTC
Kijo Rikki wrote:
Lucas Kell wrote:
Kijo Rikki wrote:
I agree, but it shouldn't take 30 minutes of us sitting on the undock waiting for a response to get this intel. Lol

I respect the ones that do, though I suspect the groups of people who do respond to a roaming gang are not as affected by an afk cloaker.

My old alliance would respond to a roam gang but not to a cloaker. Whats the point in trying to catch a cloaked nullified tengu. It's a waste of time to bother.


Oh, so you knew what it was and perceived it not ot be a threat? You realized if you could catch a cloaked nullified tengu you could eat it for breakfast, amirite?

No, we perceived that most cloakers in null were one of the following:
1. AFK
2. Nullified T3s
3. Hot Droppers

All 3 cases didn't give us any benefit to engage, so why bother?

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Kijo Rikki
Killboard Padding Services
#540 - 2013-07-22 18:52:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Kijo Rikki
Lucas Kell wrote:

What? Are you simple?
ONE POINT OF EXIT. If the null players PUT IN THE TIME to watch the exit, then they can keep safe. Notice that. PUT IN THE TIME. Something an AFK cloaker has the luxury of not having to do.


Wrong. I can jumpclone over to a neighboring system. But furthermore

If you can PUT IN THE TIME to watch an exit, you can PUT IN THE TIME to watch your overview. There is no difference whether I am afk in a station or in a claoked ship.

Your move.

You make a valid point, good Sir or Madam.