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CCP, why are drones forbidden in missions ?

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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#101 - 2013-07-18 17:20:23 UTC
Raw Matters wrote:
Rats do not pose any threat, no matter the change, as one is able to perfectly calculate the outcome of a fight against NPCs, can take enough time to figure out the minor details and can warp out at any time should there be any mistake to try again.
…which explains why so many people died when these changes came out and they couldn't warp out since they had run out of drones by mismanaging them. Wait what? But sure, you're right. Once you stop whinging and learn how the AI works, the rats pose no threats to you or your drones. That's why the OP's claim is ridiculous and why there is no real issue here. The real problem is, of course, that people seem to not want to get past that “stop whinging” part.

Quote:
Every ship can kill rats, it comes down to the question of efficiency.
…and drone ships can do it with frightening efficiency, same as always.

Quote:
I made the mistake to read your other posts as well Tippia, and found nothing but blank statements or false arguments
Such as?

Quote:
Whatever it is, you are trying to defend a severe issue in this game, one that still exists even if you close your eyes, you just won't see it anymore.
People not being able to keep their drones alive (a trivial task) is not a sever issue in the game. At most, it's a severe issue in their attention to the game, but that's not something the game can (or should) fix.
Elliavir
Miskatonic Mercantile
#102 - 2013-07-18 17:42:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Elliavir
Raw Matters wrote:
,,. And the only trivial way to keep drones alive is currently to not use them at all, which cannot be the intended purpose of a 'weapon'.


I fly done boats. Not ships that happen to have a bonus drone bay, but are mostly designated for some other type of weapon... drone boats.

I mission in drone boats. I rat and salvage in drone boats. Drones are a key part of my logi and mining. I flew them before they made all the ship rebalances and AI updates. And I'm still contentedly flying with drones as my primary focus.

Drones are FINE. They are not broken. They may not be your playstyle. You may not have the right skills, fitting, and/or tactics. But they work just fine for me (and several other posters on this thread).

"Nuh uh" is not a valid rebuttal argument to all the people confirming that drones work for them, as intended, and well.

Edit - fixed typo. Naughty, naughty typo.
Raw Matters
KRAUTZ IN SPACE
Macabric Trick
#103 - 2013-07-19 09:50:29 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
It's funny (in a sad kind of way) to know that 1st a person fails IN game than fails posting about it out of game too lol.

I guess when i do level 4 missions in a Dominix or a Rattlesnake and don't lose drones I'm doing something horribly wrong, because that's what I did all last night lol.

If you would have actually read my post, you would have seen that I listed Dominix as one of the ships that do not have any issues. There are two reasons for it: first it has a 50% drone hp bonus and second it uses sentries. This combination is pretty save, as it works with a level of drone HP that allows to recall in time. Try flying a mission in a ship that does not have an HP bonus, use Ogres and watch them instantly explode. Then please tell me how everyone would have been perfectly able to recall those in time.

On the rest of your post: I was speaking about gun-boats which uses drones primarily to defend against elite frigates, something absolutely necessary in some missions. Before you could deploy them, have them wipe out the frigs (which wasn't easy, I'd like to mention as those pesky elite frigs have a troublesome combination of HP and repair sometimes, requiring solid drone skills to kill), now you need to recall your drones about 3 times per frig and bring some extra drones as with the reaction time of the drone interface, you tend to loose one every other mission. This is not only extremely tedious and annoying, but as well lowers your isk/h to a point where some people have already started to just skip certain (otherwise lucrative) mission, because it just isn't worth the trouble.

I have done some extensive testing one drones after the change and talking about isk/h (which is the only relevant factor for mission runners) using drones now boils down to the following:
- Sentry guns are fine at range or when used in a drone-boat. Otherwise use only when only BS are left, or they tend to insta-pop. As they require you to stand still, you need an appropriate tank, which impacts your fitting choices.
- Heavy drones are useless now. They cannot be recalled in time, which means they either die before they either reach any enemy or on the way back when recalled. Their damage is negligible considering the dps loss for the constant traveling back and forth to your drone bay.
- Medium drones are usable only vs. enemy battleships or low orbiting cruisers, however most of the time the extra DPS isn't worth the risk loosing one (considering the dps loss from recalling them). With only BS left you better stick to salvaging drones.
- Small drones are still required vs elite frigs, but they tend to die a lot thanks to the usual drone AI lag and low hp. Bring extras or skip missions with frigs spawning close to entry point.
- Salvage drones are the drones of choice atm. They don't do any damage, but they are not targeted either. Effectively they speed up your (solo) missioning by salvaging usually in time when you cleared the pocket and therefore add the most to your isk/h.

I almost maxed out all my drone skills, just to learn that the best way is to not use them anymore but stick to salvage drones. I still say this is heavily broken.
Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#104 - 2013-07-19 12:13:45 UTC
Spc One wrote:
Every time i use drones in level 1 - 4 mission they get attacked in 2 seconds.
So for example i warp in with dominix aggro the room deploy drones.
The second i deploy drones 7 npc's switch aggro to my drones and at least one drone dies.

So i am asking you CCP are drones not allowed in missions anymore ? because this is just insane how quickly npc's switch aggro and how quickly drones die.


So basically we players can't use drones at all in missions or plexes.
So why are drones forbidden in missions / plexes now ?!
What?


I think you misunderstand the definition of the word "forbidden". Being incompetent with drones is not the same thing as being forbidden from using them.

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#105 - 2013-07-19 13:01:46 UTC
Raw Matters wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
It's funny (in a sad kind of way) to know that 1st a person fails IN game than fails posting about it out of game too lol.

I guess when i do level 4 missions in a Dominix or a Rattlesnake and don't lose drones I'm doing something horribly wrong, because that's what I did all last night lol.

If you would have actually read my post, you would have seen that I listed Dominix as one of the ships that do not have any issues. There are two reasons for it: first it has a 50% drone hp bonus and second it uses sentries. This combination is pretty save, as it works with a level of drone HP that allows to recall in time. Try flying a mission in a ship that does not have an HP bonus, use Ogres and watch them instantly explode. Then please tell me how everyone would have been perfectly able to recall those in time.

On the rest of your post: I was speaking about gun-boats which uses drones primarily to defend against elite frigates, something absolutely necessary in some missions. Before you could deploy them, have them wipe out the frigs (which wasn't easy, I'd like to mention as those pesky elite frigs have a troublesome combination of HP and repair sometimes, requiring solid drone skills to kill), now you need to recall your drones about 3 times per frig and bring some extra drones as with the reaction time of the drone interface, you tend to loose one every other mission. This is not only extremely tedious and annoying, but as well lowers your isk/h to a point where some people have already started to just skip certain (otherwise lucrative) mission, because it just isn't worth the trouble.

I have done some extensive testing one drones after the change and talking about isk/h (which is the only relevant factor for mission runners) using drones now boils down to the following:
- Sentry guns are fine at range or when used in a drone-boat. Otherwise use only when only BS are left, or they tend to insta-pop. As they require you to stand still, you need an appropriate tank, which impacts your fitting choices.
- Heavy drones are useless now. They cannot be recalled in time, which means they either die before they either reach any enemy or on the way back when recalled. Their damage is negligible considering the dps loss for the constant traveling back and forth to your drone bay.
- Medium drones are usable only vs. enemy battleships or low orbiting cruisers, however most of the time the extra DPS isn't worth the risk loosing one (considering the dps loss from recalling them). With only BS left you better stick to salvaging drones.
- Small drones are still required vs elite frigs, but they tend to die a lot thanks to the usual drone AI lag and low hp. Bring extras or skip missions with frigs spawning close to entry point.
- Salvage drones are the drones of choice atm. They don't do any damage, but they are not targeted either. Effectively they speed up your (solo) missioning by salvaging usually in time when you cleared the pocket and therefore add the most to your isk/h.

I almost maxed out all my drone skills, just to learn that the best way is to not use them anymore but stick to salvage drones. I still say this is heavily broken.


I guess I was also doing it wrong using a Machariel with Warrior IIs and Valks and hammerheads and Hobgoblins last night and not losing a single drone.

THREAT GENERATION. That's what you need to do, thats why my mission mach has a multispec ECM or a Dampener on it Hell, it's why i use a mach in missions with lots of frigs because 1200 dps plus that ECM keeps ALL the aggro on the mach no matter what i do.

You people keep trying to mission like it's 2011. It's 2013 and some of you still can't figure it out? Just like in every AFK cloaking thread, some of you mission runners don't want to adapt.

For example:
Quote:
- Heavy drones are useless now. They cannot be recalled in time, which means they either die before they either reach any enemy or on the way back when recalled. Their damage is negligible considering the dps loss for the constant traveling back and forth to your drone bay.


Which is why you don't recall them, you use a perma MWD fit (like my vargur) with a remote rep and set your ship to keep one of those heavies "at range" (1km). So then the drones are "dragging" your ship around the site and means you are always approaching a target with not only helps your tractoring stuff (you are always in range of a wreck, even with the marauder's boost to tractoring stuff can be too far away), it helps your (in my case) autocannons which are usually firing in fall-off anyway.

But hell, if you understand how and when to generate threat, you don't even have to do that.

99% of mission runners will be too dumb to figure out such a thing for themselves though. No, they are ENTITLED to send defenselss drones 50 or more km from their ship to kill stuff, and since you can't do that now, something is broken , right?

Reminds me a lot of the miners who badgered CCP into buffs rather than accept slightly less yield for considerably more tank........
Xia Kairui
Perkone
Caldari State
#106 - 2013-07-19 13:19:58 UTC
What bothers me most is that while the NPC AI has been upgraded to better deal with drones, the UI used for drones is still the ****** right-click thingy it has been for years.

And let's not talk about things like setting your drones to "Focus Fire" and see them wander off to attack five different targets. Or that they still love to attack Kruul, so when I go to retrieve the Damsel from her workplace (you cannot tell me she's being abducted all the times) I have to spend more time manage my drones than actually shoot things.

New drone AI now! Well, ANY drone AI would be a good start.
Mr Kidd
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#107 - 2013-07-19 15:52:06 UTC
Protip: >1 player in a mission breaks AI drone aggro.

Don't ban me, bro!
Captin TPrice
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#108 - 2013-07-19 17:18:04 UTC
Iam confused. my drones work all the time before i even get to doin any thing
Cipher Jones
The Thomas Edwards Taco Tuesday All Stars
#109 - 2013-07-19 19:30:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Cipher Jones
Niec Mogul wrote:
As a counterpoint to all the apologists in here: Sure, you can technically still use drones in missions these days. About the same way you can still go fight a war with a sword and a shield (hint: the answer is "not very effectively.").

My recommendation? Bite the bullet, take the downtime, and train into a missile boat. Problem solved. No, really, it is. All the drone downsides just evaporate. Greater range, selectable damage, benefits from EWar (target painting), all just like drones, only without the constant bullshit micromanagery that stands in for "mad leet skillz" when using drones. And as far as costs go, one lost light T2 drone (~300k) will buy enough cruise missiles to complete a ton of missions. On the rarest occasions rats will have Defender missiles, but these hardly ever do more than slow things down for a second or so, and if they jam you there's always FoF missiles. Craptastic damage, but damage nonetheless.

Drones aren't off the table but they're definitely a massive pain in the ass to use, particularly when they offer little to no advantage over a set of launchers.


Hi. You are wrong, point blank.

I use drones in my Machariel all day. Its still the fastest thing at killing angels.

I use drones in My TFI all day. It's still as fast at killing Serpentis, Mercs, and Mordus.

The drones add significant DPS to both ships. I have yet to replace a full flight in either since the update, or rather since I came back in May.

Like I said, if I was failing at missions with drones I would do some research. On the other hand, every fail mission runner drives up the price of my LP, salvaged minerals, and salvage. So carry on if you like.

Quote:
- Heavy drones are useless now.


They were terribad before the update, so is there a point to posting this?

internet spaceships

are serious business sir.

and don't forget it
Bagrat Skalski
Koinuun Kotei
#110 - 2013-07-19 20:15:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Bagrat Skalski
I had significant loses when i used drones in one particulat mission (10 from 15 lost), and that was caldari epic arc. Ordinary lvl 4 missions are something i can do with minimal loses 1 or 2 tech 1 small drones, of course if i am paying attention to them. Some missions are more "drone friendly" than others.

Custom ship skins, character creator style "repaint". Bring it!
Arduemont
Rotten Legion
#111 - 2013-07-19 21:02:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Arduemont
Spc One wrote:

Sentries also get aggro in 2 seconds, so no.


Then pull them in when they get agro. It's not hard. I do all my mission running in drone boats. They are unquestionably the most effective mission runners since the drone damage buff.

"In the age of information, ignorance is a choice." www.stateofwar.co.nf
Dray Cil
Subterfuge Blackmail Sabotage Deception Network
Black Rose.
#112 - 2013-07-20 03:54:58 UTC
(cough)

Drone Durability V

(cough)

o.O
Shedemei Silfar
Miskatonic Mercantile
#113 - 2013-07-20 04:08:59 UTC
Spc One wrote:
Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:
I keep reading about this "problem", and I'm not having it. Only occasionally NPCs concentrate fire on one drone but there's plenty of time to recall it.

Could be be due to having Level 5 in all light drone skills and specializations?


Nah. There must be something we can just assume instead and complain to CCP about.

It's not a complaint, it's a question for CCP.
Why are they forbidding drones in missions ?


Translation: "I don't like this, it's not easy - I've tried nothing and i'm all out of options. CCP plz make it easy for me."

I fly almost exclusively drone boats and do just fine. If you're having problems then one of the following is likely the problem:

1) your skills suck - train them up
2) you're not paying attention
3) you're not using the right drones for the job.

Many people have given you many good tips. But please feel free to fly something other than drone boats.
Xessej
Perkone
Caldari State
#114 - 2013-07-20 04:10:51 UTC
I use lights to kill frigs and cruisers in l4's all the time. I only occasionally have elite frigs switch targets to the drones and generally I can pull them back in in time (I bought 20 of each t2 a couple of months ago and still have at least a full flight of each) and I don't fly a ship with a bonus to drone hit points.

I guess the idea that you have to watch your drones for when they start taking damage and recall that individual drone is beyond some folks.
duglas Luven
Hell Forge Industries
#115 - 2013-07-20 08:09:12 UTC
Spc One wrote:
Private Pineapple wrote:
Spc One wrote:
And how should i do it right then ?


Get aggro first?

I do get aggro first, i aggro whole room then deploy drones.


I use drones all the time and yea I get some drone aggro, but not as bad as you make it seem. You don't need to get 100% aggro in a room, stage the aggro. If something is not shooting at you don't trigger it. As for your issue, I am not sure what you are doing wrong but I can say some missions have more aggro than others. I have also noticed that drones don't shoot drones, in so far as i can recall. Any way, try killing every thing you can before you depoy drones that seems to help as well.
Brewlar Kuvakei
Adeptio Gloriae
#116 - 2013-07-20 08:37:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Brewlar Kuvakei
Pure Drone DPS are no longer viable for PVE, it sucks I know but know amount of bitching is going to help you here.

If you enter a Mission or Plex and your entire or the majority of your DPS is held within drones then they will be agro'd and most likely destroyed. There are several methods to elevate the problem.

A) Don't use drone boats for PVE, they are simply not an efficient option for grinding ISK. No matter how well you follow the next steps you will simply have an easier time using a missile or turret based DPS ship.

B) Fit a repping system in your highs and orbit sentry at 500m, when sentry drone takes damage rep them, you can tank entire rooms like this as the sentry drone sig tanks incoming DPS like a champ while still having a small HP which allows reps to easily pump it to full HP. (using this method I was able to solo a 7/10 in a Myrmidon. The rats will sometimes still DPS you but because they have spread DPS it makes previously hard rooms much more easy.

C) Micro jump trick. Fly into mission or plex and drop light drones, when they get agro micro jump 100km and tell your drones to orbit you. When the drones return the hapless NPC will chase them out to 100km. While this is happening abandon the drone that has agro. Drop sentry and blop hapless NPC, when micro jump is ready again repeat. This is excellent for missions or deds where the objective is a static such as Angels Red Light. As you can simply micro warp jump to objective once all the NPCs have been pulled off. On very hard rooms you can jump them out to 200km, I've never had the need to go for 300km. Once your drone gets popped the NPC slow boat back to their original spawn and in my experience sometimes never re target you.

D) Disposable Sentry Ship. Fit an active tank drone boat and fill her up with t1 sentry. burn to 100km and keep traversal up, when you lose a sentry just drop another and treat them as consumable ammo.

As said at start of post the easy way is simply to get into a missile boat, if you load a missile boat up with auto targeting missiles you can do the afk trick. Simply build a passive tank that can handle all the npc dps while doing 0m/s. Then activate launcher, count how long it takes for your launcher to empty and reload , then you need only press f1 that many times per hour with out botting, you could easily set up away to have the f1 auto managed but that's against the rules. It's the same as the old drop rattlesnake in a cosmo come back from work and make 1bn isk passive ect. As long as you set your safety to green and you can tank DPS then you are sorted, you can also orbit non destructible statics. If it's destructible some 1 will pop it and you'll die.

The auto targeting missile trick works very well with ISO boxer and multiple accounts for players who want to make ISK but not have to think or micro manage anything. Something that needs 1 button press every 5 mins max. It's not gonna be as good as being not afk while ISO boxing but it's still going to make isk.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#117 - 2013-07-20 10:43:53 UTC
Brewlar Kuvakei wrote:
Pure Drone DPS are no longer viable for PVE
They're as viable as they ever were. They just don't work as well if you're going AFK (this is a good thing). All you have to do is learn how the AI responds to various cues and what makes them prioritise one target over another.
Cipher Jones
The Thomas Edwards Taco Tuesday All Stars
#118 - 2013-07-22 15:59:28 UTC
Brewlar Kuvakei wrote:
Pure Drone DPS are no longer viable for PVE, it sucks I know but know amount of bitching is going to help you here.

If you enter a Mission or Plex and your entire or the majority of your DPS is held within drones then they will be agro'd and most likely destroyed. There are several methods to elevate the problem.

A) Don't use drone boats for PVE, they are simply not an efficient option for grinding ISK. No matter how well you follow the next steps you will simply have an easier time using a missile or turret based DPS ship.

B) Fit a repping system in your highs and orbit sentry at 500m, when sentry drone takes damage rep them, you can tank entire rooms like this as the sentry drone sig tanks incoming DPS like a champ while still having a small HP which allows reps to easily pump it to full HP. (using this method I was able to solo a 7/10 in a Myrmidon. The rats will sometimes still DPS you but because they have spread DPS it makes previously hard rooms much more easy.

C) Micro jump trick. Fly into mission or plex and drop light drones, when they get agro micro jump 100km and tell your drones to orbit you. When the drones return the hapless NPC will chase them out to 100km. While this is happening abandon the drone that has agro. Drop sentry and blop hapless NPC, when micro jump is ready again repeat. This is excellent for missions or deds where the objective is a static such as Angels Red Light. As you can simply micro warp jump to objective once all the NPCs have been pulled off. On very hard rooms you can jump them out to 200km, I've never had the need to go for 300km. Once your drone gets popped the NPC slow boat back to their original spawn and in my experience sometimes never re target you.

D) Disposable Sentry Ship. Fit an active tank drone boat and fill her up with t1 sentry. burn to 100km and keep traversal up, when you lose a sentry just drop another and treat them as consumable ammo.

As said at start of post the easy way is simply to get into a missile boat, if you load a missile boat up with auto targeting missiles you can do the afk trick. Simply build a passive tank that can handle all the npc dps while doing 0m/s. Then activate launcher, count how long it takes for your launcher to empty and reload , then you need only press f1 that many times per hour with out botting, you could easily set up away to have the f1 auto managed but that's against the rules. It's the same as the old drop rattlesnake in a cosmo come back from work and make 1bn isk passive ect. As long as you set your safety to green and you can tank DPS then you are sorted, you can also orbit non destructible statics. If it's destructible some 1 will pop it and you'll die.

The auto targeting missile trick works very well with ISO boxer and multiple accounts for players who want to make ISK but not have to think or micro manage anything. Something that needs 1 button press every 5 mins max. It's not gonna be as good as being not afk while ISO boxing but it's still going to make isk.


I'll remember this hogwash when I cash out the couple hundred mil an hour I made last night running anomalies in a RS gang.

I'll remember this hogwash while I'm missioning later.

Seriously, this is begining to remind me of the AI changes in GW I, where they made the NPC's not stand in AOE. Absolutely devastating to the players with IQ<95.

internet spaceships

are serious business sir.

and don't forget it