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Freighter Tweaks

Author
Lakitel
4.20ly Mining Range
#1 - 2013-06-26 11:08:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Lakitel
Right now using freighters is a very long and tedious process, with a warp-speed of 0.75 and no slots, there's actually no fun in flying it other than the possibility of being shot down while attempting warp, or being bumped by somebody (which is a ridiculous tactic in my opinion).

Its absolutely reasonable to assume a hauling operation could take 20-40 minutes for just one haul.

So I suggest a couple of changes:

- Double Warp speed

This is a simple tweak that adds a lot of game play into the game.

First of all haulers don't run into the ridiculous possibility of a 50 or 60 AU system that requires a whole minute just to jump.

Second, it will increase trade and manufacture. The faster you can haul, the more you can haul over a long-period of time, which means more overall trading capacity in EvE. As such, freighters will become more sought after in EvE as hauling ships, which would also increase trading capacity. I haven't done the mathematics, but by doubling warp speed on freighters, I would think that we could increase trading capacity by at least 5-10%.

Third, It wouldn't really effect PvP mechanics. The only time PvP interaction can take place is when the ship is aligning and gaining speed, once it's warped, there's nothing that can be done to it until it lands at its destination. And this tweak wouldn't alter align time or velocity, it would only affect the part where no gameplay between players exist. All PvP ships warp faster than 1.5 AU, so they'd still be able to out-warp and get there before the freighter lands, although interestingly, it would add some 'cat' and 'mouse' since there is more of a chance the freighter can escape now.

Update:

So far, the a doubling in warp speed for freighters would approximately decrease hauling time by 17% if we assume that it is 20 jumps and each system is 30 AU

Additionally, there has been some debate between whether this decrease in time will positively or negatively impact the EvE economy. Unfortunately, without deep statistical data of how much hauling is done by what kind of hauling ships, there is no 100% sure answer either way.

Finally, it has been suggested, and I concur, that its possible that this kind of increase in warp speed can be a Role Bonus that is affected by a skill. The argument being that it should be easy to get, and right now the benefits of training Freightering above level 3 is not very high.

Also, i would like to clarify that this is the main thing I was suggesting and that the below suggestions are secondary.



- Adding a High Slot

While this is not really a priority, it would be a nice addition, especially in large mining fleets and mining ops where a freighter is required to save Orca warp time. The freighter could equip a tractor beam that could tractor in cans of minerals the Orca pilots offload into. This would make mining more efficient and would be another reason for people to seek out freighters. And I'm sure all you PvPers would love if statically there were more nice big juicy targets like freighters ;)

- Adding a Low Slot

Again, not of very high priority, but it would add hauling strategy to freighters that we see in industrial's. I'm talking. of course, about Speed Vs Cargohold Space. With industrials there are lots of fittings for lots of different types of hauling, where as just adding a low slot on a freighter would add a simple strategic element. Do you go for Inertia Stabs, or Expanded Cargohold?

Update:

There has been a lot of raging debate on putting in slots. Most if it is surrounded around 2 points:

- Some other stats need to be nerfed in order to achieve balance
- With certain modules, it is possible for a freighter to haul a packaged capital ship that is not a titan.

There have been some solutions offered:

- Have a subsystem instead of slots, that way it is freighter specific and allows more control over stat changes
- Make packaged capitals an illegal good so that "contract packaging" isn't used as a loophole
- Nerf base cargohold capacity



- Make warp speed variable upon how full the cargohold is.

This is a slightly more ambitious tweak, and probably more along the lines of "Wouldn't that be awesome!" than "The effort to make it is worth what it would give back in game play"

The concept here is that most hauls are 50% just going somewhere to pick up what you need to haul. Unless you are lucky enough to get chained contracts or hauling operations, that means that half the time spent moving about the obelisk is just insane busywork. What would make more sense is that if the ship is empty the ship should warp faster, and if the ship is full, it should warp slower.

Update:

A nice solution for this is to have a specific module which increases warp speed but decreases cargohold space. For example 100% increase in warp speed by a 50% decrease in cargohold capcity. That way it can be fitted when the hauler is running empty.



Not only would this speed up hauler gameplay, but it would add another level of realism to the game. Freighters are in fact large enough that a full or empty cargohold would significantly alter how fast the ship moves.

(As an aside, I want to add that if this concept of moving slower with a fuller hold is taken and added as a whole to EvE, it would add a lot of interesting gameplay. You'd have to really cherry-pick what you take and what you don't take with you whenever you move around EvE. I would also think that Carriers and Super Carriers would also be significantly effected by this mechanic, adding another aspect to PvP)



And that's it. I'm not saying that these suggestion are the best ones ever, but I would be interested to hear what other haulers/industrialists/manufacturers and traders think about this.
Balthazar Lestrane
Dirt 'n' Glitter
Local Is Primary
#2 - 2013-07-21 19:01:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Balthazar Lestrane
And the freighter tears keep coming.

Freighters have one purpose. They move stuff. They do not need fitting slots, rigging slots, increase agility or increased anything.

Their slow velocity, warp speed and align time is the trade-off you pay for being able to move ~700km3 in one hull. You want them to go faster? Fine, nerf their cargo capacity in half along with their eHP. You can't just buff something needlessly without compensating elsewhere.

Freighters gameplay = undock, warp to gate, jump, repeat, dock. You aren't going to get more interesting gameplay than that, faster warp times or not.

Quote:
Second, it will increase trade and manufacture.


Sorry but Tech I production is rampant enough, thank you.

Making warp speeds variable upon cargo capacity would have to be applied to all hulls, not just freighters.. there is such a thing as too much realism.

-1
Lakitel
4.20ly Mining Range
#3 - 2013-07-21 19:20:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Lakitel
You know, I'm quite alright with constructive criticism, but the whole "Freighter tears keep coming" crap is really not required, unless of course you can't make a proper argument and that's all you can cling to.

Its pretty obvious that you, at the very least, don't fly freighters often, if at all. For one, you're poorly researched response would have come up with a basic capacity of 720-785k M3. Secondly, my post has nothing to do with hauling capacity, that's why I didn't ask that to be changed, its all about how it feels like flying these ships and as a paying customer with several accounts, I think its more than fair that I at least ask for this kind of change.

As for your argument of trade-off, it doesn't hold water. You are assuming perfect real world physics. In which case fine, I already posted up there that it makes more than enough sense that the ship should go faster when empty and slower when full. I'd be more than happy by that change. You know, if you really want to talk about trade-offs.

Again, you make this assumption that I'm asking for freighters to be buffed. That's half true. Freighters are already nerfed. Almost ALL hauling ships have slots, only freighters don't have slots. And again, you aren't making any real argument, I already said these aren't a priority, so I don't see why you are so passive aggressive about it. And whether you like it or not, their is gameplay for freighters, just because you don't take part in it, doesn't mean others don't. There's a whole alliance out there dedicated to just hauling, so its not like hauling represents a miniscule part of this game.

I don't see why you focus on Tech I production, there are such things as Tech II production. You know, stuff like capitals that need massive amounts of minerals to build. Tbh that's the last thing I'd think anybody complains about. More Tech I production means more things for you to shoot at, I'd that you'd be happy, but I guess you can't please everybody.

Finally, you might argue that there is such a thing as too much realism, and yet you complain that you want freighters to act realistically. Make up your mind, do you want ships to act like ships in a game, or do you want them to act like ships would in real life?

Again, I don't mind people giving constructive criticism, but you're argument pretty much seems to be "NO! I don't want ANYTHING to change and deal with it." Seriously, please fly freighters consistently for a few years and then start giving some proper criticism.
Rowells
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#4 - 2013-07-21 19:32:07 UTC
it does seem ludicrous that a titan can warp twice as fast as a freighter. but thats the only thing i feel could use a change. no to the ship slots. and the speed based on cargo is interesting, but not something i see as necessary
Alphea Abbra
Project Promethion
#5 - 2013-07-21 19:36:46 UTC
Lakitel wrote:
(...)you're poorly researched response would have come up with a basic capacity of 720-785k M3
Which he did. I find it funny, generally speaking, that you accuse Mr. Lestrane for making a bad, or unresearched, or two-faced argument, while your own is nothing but that and of course a few strawmens concerning Mr. Lestrane's arguments.
Quote:
Secondly, my post has nothing to do with hauling capacity, that's why I didn't ask that to be changed(...)
You actually are.
Unless you think freighters should have a free low-slot (For either increased agility, increased cargo or a DCU if also given fitting stats) without losing any of their current stats then yes; you are talking about that.
Why do you want freighters to either suck comparatively at
a) hauling (Reducing their cargo amount based on fitting a cargo expander)
b) aligning (Reducing agility based on fitting an inertia or nanofiber)
c) EHP (Reducing HP based on fitting a DCU)


Quote:
As for your argument of trade-off, it doesn't hold water. You are assuming perfect real world physics(...) Finally, you might argue that there is such a thing as too much realism, and yet you complain that you want freighters to act realistically. Make up your mind, do you want ships to act like ships in a game, or do you want them to act like ships would in real life?
Do you want a lighter for that strawman?

Quote:
Again, I don't mind people giving constructive criticism, but you're argument pretty much seems to be "NO! I don't want ANYTHING to change and deal with it." Seriously, please fly freighters consistently for a few years and then start giving some proper criticism.
Bro, do you even have an argument to constructively criticise?

Now, I am sure that you can make a better OP and a better reply than this, so please do.
Until then, I see no reason for anything to change based on freighters alone.
Lakitel
4.20ly Mining Range
#6 - 2013-07-21 19:36:52 UTC
Yep, which is why all that other stuff is secondary, the main issue that I have is the warp speed, its just way too slow, and an increase from 0.75 Au to 1.5 AU really isn't really going to make THAT much of a difference, even though its double. Its mostly just going to make life way better for freighter haulers.

Hmmm, maybe I should edit my original post to make it clear that the warp speed thing is the biggest issue that I'm asking to have changed.
Lakitel
4.20ly Mining Range
#7 - 2013-07-21 19:42:43 UTC
Alpha, I would love to reply to your well-quoted but absolutely lacking in substance comments, except you are obviously just back-up for Lestrane, so why should I even bother?

Its a shame too, because you actually pointed out a few legitimate things, but you spoiled it with this common mentality of incessantly needing to put other people down when you don't agree with them, just so you can act as back-up.

Tobias Hareka
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#8 - 2013-07-21 19:56:06 UTC
Lakitel wrote:
- Adding a Low Slot

Again, not of very high priority, but it would add hauling strategy to freighters that we see in industrial's. I'm talking. of course, about Speed Vs Cargohold Space. With industrials there are lots of fittings for lots of different types of hauling, where as just adding a low slot on a freighter would add a simple strategic element. Do you go for Inertia Stabs, or Expanded Cargohold?


They would need to:
- nerf its tank
- nerf its cargohold size
- nerf its agility

One of the biggest possible issues: adding a low slot(s) to Charon without nerfing its cargohold size to ground would allow it to haul capitals to high sec.
Alphea Abbra
Project Promethion
#9 - 2013-07-21 19:56:45 UTC
Lakitel wrote:
Its a shame too, because you actually pointed out a few legitimate things, but you spoiled it with this common mentality of incessantly needing to put other people down when you don't agree with them, just so you can act as back-up.
Straight from the horses mouth, you have been put down.
Besides, I now have to study a far more interesting phenomena:
Am I figuratively or literally playing second violin to Mr. Lestrane?

Furthermore, since The Retirement Club are literally AND figuratively BoB mk. n+1 (where "n" is years since Goonswarm mk. 1 was founded), am I then:
a) literally
b) figuratively
c) all of the above
BoB mk. n+2?
Lakitel
4.20ly Mining Range
#10 - 2013-07-21 20:10:53 UTC
Tobias Hareka wrote:
Lakitel wrote:
- Adding a Low Slot

Again, not of very high priority, but it would add hauling strategy to freighters that we see in industrial's. I'm talking. of course, about Speed Vs Cargohold Space. With industrials there are lots of fittings for lots of different types of hauling, where as just adding a low slot on a freighter would add a simple strategic element. Do you go for Inertia Stabs, or Expanded Cargohold?


They would need to:
- nerf its tank
- nerf its cargohold size
- nerf its agility

One of the biggest possible issues: adding a low slot(s) to Charon without nerfing its cargohold size to ground would allow it to haul capitals to high sec.


Adding an Expanded Cargohold II would already cut down Tank and Agility by -20% and -10%

Well, I've done some quick calculations on the Charon. If you have skills to level 5 and an expanded Cargohold II, you're looking at a capacity of 1,251,093. That would be able to carry any capital ship packaged except Titans. But that's an easy fix, just a matter of making it so that freighters can't haul packaged Titans.

But really, look at it this way, do you really want to put a capital ship in a slow moving hauler with barely any EHP? Making the calculation of -10% speed and -20% structure, you are talking about ~85m/s and ~ 110k structure. On top of that, even if the warp speed is doubled, it could still be outrun by a small ship that could web it, or even a HAC that could place a bubble infront of it, it really is incredibly low speeds.

But you know, that would be part of the gameplay, are you willing to take the risk of putting a capital in a hauler? Tbh I wouldn't, I think it would make more sense to just fly the capital itself, since there are already better ways to keep Capitals safe when they aren't being flown. Thats why I'm saying adding a low slot would add some tactics on how you want to fly it.


Alphea Abbra wrote:
Straight from the horses mouth, you have been put down.
Besides, I now have to study a far more interesting phenomena:
Am I figuratively or literally playing second violin to Mr. Lestrane?


Well I'm glad you got an ego boost. Too bad you didn't contribute anything.

And either way, you're still a third wheel :)
Tobias Hareka
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#11 - 2013-07-21 20:31:32 UTC
Lakitel wrote:
But really, look at it this way, do you really want to put a capital ship in a slow moving hauler with barely any EHP? Making the calculation of -10% speed and -20% structure, you are talking about ~85m/s and ~ 110k structure. On top of that, even if the warp speed is doubled, it could still be outrun by a small ship that could web it, or even a HAC that could place a bubble infront of it, it really is incredibly low speeds.


I'm not a ganker but I do know that activating web on freighter is last thing you want to do if you don't have it warp scrambled/disrupted.
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
Wild Geese.
#12 - 2013-07-21 20:38:32 UTC  |  Edited by: ShahFluffers
This is not a new idea and it's still a bad idea (as others have already pointed out).

- You can't add low or mid slots on Freighters without nerfing other stats (the "webbing insta-warp trick" makes it easily possible to bring capitals from low-sec to high-sec and/or laugh at any potential threats directed towards a freighter).

- More goods moving around New Eden is bad for small-time haulers and traders. It decreases price variations between different locations and makes it such that profits will be based on even more razor-thin margins and/or bulk orders.

- Greater/Safer/Faster logistics does not encourage people to become "self sufficient" in far flung areas of the game. It just increases people's dependence on trade hubs for all their supply needs and, in fact, has the potential to kill some current "low-level" trade hubs as it'll be easier than ever to just "always shop at Jita."

- Greater/Safer/Faster logistics abilities are not needed. It is already stupid easy/safe/efficient for large groups to move their fleets/resources and project power across the map. This just increases it (which is bad for smaller groups).
Lakitel
4.20ly Mining Range
#13 - 2013-07-21 20:45:44 UTC
Tobias Hareka wrote:
Lakitel wrote:
But really, look at it this way, do you really want to put a capital ship in a slow moving hauler with barely any EHP? Making the calculation of -10% speed and -20% structure, you are talking about ~85m/s and ~ 110k structure. On top of that, even if the warp speed is doubled, it could still be outrun by a small ship that could web it, or even a HAC that could place a bubble infront of it, it really is incredibly low speeds.


I'm not a ganker but I do know that activating web on freighter is last thing you want to do if you don't have it warp scrambled/disrupted.


Well, as I said, I think if you have a proper hunting team, you could easily outmaneuver and outpace a hauler, even with double warp speed. But yes, you would want scrams on the hauler, and it would be easy to do both a web and a scram.
Lakitel
4.20ly Mining Range
#14 - 2013-07-21 20:57:49 UTC
ShahFluffers wrote:
This is not a new idea and it's still a bad idea (as others have already pointed out).

- You can't add low or mid slots on Freighters without nerfing other stats (the "webbing insta-warp trick" makes it easily possible to bring capitals from low-sec to high-sec and/or laugh at any potential threats directed towards a freighter).

- More goods moving around New Eden is bad for small-time haulers and traders. It decreases price variations between different locations and makes it such that profits will be based on even more razor-thin margins and/or bulk orders.

- Greater/Safer/Faster logistics does not encourage people to become "self sufficient" in far flung areas of the game. It just increases people's dependence on trade hubs for all their supply needs and, in fact, has the potential to kill some current "low-level" trade hubs as it'll be easier than ever to just "always shop at Jita."

- Greater/Safer/Faster logistics abilities are not needed. It is already stupid easy/safe/efficient for large groups to move their fleets/resources and project power across the map. This just increases it (which is bad for smaller groups).


- I don't know if you've tried the webbing insta-warp thing, but its really not all its cracked up to be. Unless the two pilots have trained and are incredibly in-sync, this tactic isn't really going to make a big difference. Not to mention that any capitals you can fly in high-sec can just be made in high-sec, so no need for transport, and any other capital can't go into high-sec, so even if you did transport one to high-sec, you couldn't use it. In fact, the only Titan in high-sec is Chribba's and if he took it to low-sec he'd never be able to fly it in high-sec again. And again, there's nothing wrong with nerfing a few stats, but it really isn't needed, freighters are poor ships except for their hauling capacity.

- Well that is a good point, I don't think it would significantly impact small-time haulers. Most people who use freighters are hauling massive amounts, using several round trips to get what they need. Freighter mechanics usually revolve around getting minerals or parts transported to get big ships built. Thats not to say that they aren't used for bulk selling, but the honest truth is, if a bulk seller really wanted to increase their capacity, they could easily just open up another account and fly another freighter. The doubling of warp speed won't effect that kind of thing significantly. You have to keep in mind that there is still align time and velocity considerations to take into account before warping actually takes place.

- I never said anything about self-sufficiency, I think that is an argument for another thread. But I will say that "Always shop at Jita" thing is only done by amateur or incompetent traders. Even now, Jita isn't the best place to buy and sell everything.

- Again, I appreciate your feelings for smaller groups, but I think you are blowing this out of proportion. I am only asking for one or two small changes. What bugs me about your post is that it seems to be mostly targeted to general debates about freighters, and not my specific post. So not discount your opinion, but I would appreciate it if you altered your arguments to fit my suggestions and not just some general generic suggestions.
Tobias Hareka
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#15 - 2013-07-21 21:07:47 UTC
Lakitel wrote:
- I don't know if you've tried the webbing insta-warp thing, but its really not all its cracked up to be. Unless the two pilots have trained and are incredibly in-sync, this tactic isn't really going to make a big difference. Not to mention that any capitals you can fly in high-sec can just be made in high-sec, so no need for transport, and any other capital can't go into high-sec, so even if you did transport one to high-sec, you couldn't use it. In fact, the only Titan in high-sec is Chribba's and if he took it to low-sec he'd never be able to fly it in high-sec again. And again, there's nothing wrong with nerfing a few stats, but it really isn't needed, freighters are poor ships except for their hauling capacity.


There has never been any super capitals in high sec. To build one you need to have sov in the system you want to build it.

Only reason there are still few capitals in hisec is because they were built in hisec when it was possible. Problem with them is that they are locked to one system (they can't use stargates) and also operating one in hisec is restricted with very strict rules. With cargohold expanders Charon pilot could haul those capitals around hisec without any issues.
Ellendras Silver
CrashCat Corporation
#16 - 2013-07-21 21:10:23 UTC
quote from OP
Quote:

Right now using freighters is a very long and tedious process, with a warp-speed of 0.75 and no slots, there's actually no fun in flying it other than the possibility of being shot down while attempting warp, or being bumped by somebody (which is a ridiculous tactic in my opinion).


it will always be a loot pinata, and it is logic that it is way slower then normal ships. i do however think here is something to be found that should be adressed and that is bumping which is by definition a aggresssive act that isnt penaltized. i can see why as it is possible to bump without intention to bump it.

so i would say if possible make it so that if ship is bumped AND attacked that the ship that bumnped is killed aswell by concorde, it would without doubt make goons cry but hey best tears are goon tears

[u]Carpe noctem[/u]

Lakitel
4.20ly Mining Range
#17 - 2013-07-21 21:25:37 UTC
Tobias Hareka wrote:
Lakitel wrote:
- I don't know if you've tried the webbing insta-warp thing, but its really not all its cracked up to be. Unless the two pilots have trained and are incredibly in-sync, this tactic isn't really going to make a big difference. Not to mention that any capitals you can fly in high-sec can just be made in high-sec, so no need for transport, and any other capital can't go into high-sec, so even if you did transport one to high-sec, you couldn't use it. In fact, the only Titan in high-sec is Chribba's and if he took it to low-sec he'd never be able to fly it in high-sec again. And again, there's nothing wrong with nerfing a few stats, but it really isn't needed, freighters are poor ships except for their hauling capacity.


There has never been any super capitals in high sec. To build one you need to have sov in the system you want to build it.

Only reason there are still few capitals in hisec is because they were built in hisec when it was possible. Problem with them is that they are locked to one system (they can't use stargates) and also operating one in hisec is restricted with very strict rules. With cargohold expanders Charon pilot could haul those capitals around hisec without any issues.



Yeah I know, I did mention that the only Titan in High-sec space is Chribba's. Even so, that doesn't stop the freighter from being ganked, which with such a juicy target in the cargobay, is very likely. So its still a risk. I don't think it would be completely without issue.

But again, that is an easy fix, just add a line of code that doesn't allow capitals to enter the cargobay of a freighter. Even though, as I said, I think it would add some interesting aspects to freightering.


Ellendras Silver wrote:
quote from OP

Quote:

Right now using freighters is a very long and tedious process, with a warp-speed of 0.75 and no slots, there's actually no fun in flying it other than the possibility of being shot down while attempting warp, or being bumped by somebody (which is a ridiculous tactic in my opinion).


it will always be a loot pinata, and it is logic that it is way slower then normal ships. i do however think here is something to be found that should be adressed and that is bumping which is by definition a aggresssive act that isnt penaltized. i can see why as it is possible to bump without intention to bump it.

so i would say if possible make it so that if ship is bumped AND attacked that the ship that bumnped is killed aswell by concorde, it would without doubt make goons cry but hey best tears are goon tears


Thats fine, but you have to understand that even if you double the warp speed, it will still always be slower then normal ships. I mean we are talking about a warp speed of 1.5 AU if its doubled. Thats the same speed as a thanatos and the Thanatos is 200k kgs more mass. So really, if its an argument of logic and realism, then the obelisk should be faster. I mean it has stronger engines, or else it wouldn't have a higher basic velocity
DTson Gauur
Underground-Operators
#18 - 2013-07-21 21:35:14 UTC
Fine, let freighters have a high slot and low slot but in balance:

- no cloaks
- no cyno gens
- no damage controls
- no cargo expanders
- no agility mods
- no... you get where I'm going.
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
Wild Geese.
#19 - 2013-07-21 21:41:30 UTC
Lakitel wrote:
- I don't know if you've tried the webbing insta-warp thing, but its really not all its cracked up to be. Unless the two pilots have trained and are incredibly in-sync, this tactic isn't really going to make a big difference. Not to mention that any capitals you can fly in high-sec can just be made in high-sec, so no need for transport,

I do the webbing trick all the time... in low-sec of all places. In a "hot" faction war area.
We have yet to lose a freighter (yes, I have invoked Murphy's Law now).

And you need to brush up on your history. Capitals can't be made in any way, shape, or form in high-sec. Their components can. But not the hulls themselves (the ONLY exceptions to this are Freighters and Jump Freighters). And with VERY good reason.

Lakitel wrote:
and any other capital can't go into high-sec, so even if you did transport one to high-sec, you couldn't use it. In fact, the only Titan in high-sec is Chribba's and if he took it to low-sec he'd never be able to fly it in high-sec again.

Dreadnought. Not Titan (yes, details are important here). And high-sec capitals have such restrictions and are allowed to stay where they are for 2 respective reasons; 1) they are massive force multipliers. You think station games are bad now? Wait til you see a carrier undock. 2) There are so few high-sec capitals that they are easy to keep track of.

Even if "1)" stayed the same... "2)" would not. It isn't much of a stretch for a major alliance to move large capital fleets into high-sec for either "cold storage" or to screw with high-sec inhabitants.


Quote:
And again, there's nothing wrong with nerfing a few stats, but it really isn't needed, freighters are poor ships except for their hauling capacity.

Yes... yes it is. If you want to keep the stats as they are now then you need a good reason. Otherwise, balance demands that freighters have their cargo, hull, and agility cut down (otherwise people will begin to min/max and do "stupid" things that should not be possible).

Quote:
- I never said anything about self-sufficiency, I think that is an argument for another thread. But I will say that "Always shop at Jita" thing is only done by amateur or incompetent traders. Even now, Jita isn't the best place to buy and sell everything.

You may not have mentioned it... but it is an issue that will come up as a result of your change.

And if you want to lowest prices (or don't want to deal with unavailability)... Jita is the place to be. So no, for non-traders it is the "one-stop-shop." Amarr is quickly becoming this way as well with Jita constantly running into its hard population cap.

Quote:
- Again, I appreciate your feelings for smaller groups, but I think you are blowing this out of proportion. I am only asking for one or two small changes. What bugs me about your post is that it seems to be mostly targeted to general debates about freighters, and not my specific post. So not discount your opinion, but I would appreciate it if you altered your arguments to fit my suggestions and not just some general generic suggestions.

1. I don't address anything specific because I am debating the premise of your idea. WHY is such a change needed? Beyond "it'd be more convenient" you currently don't have a gameplay reason to counter any of the potentially ill effects such a change might cause (that I and everyone else listed).

2. Small changes can have wide-reaching effects on the game... especially small changes on a ship whose sole purpose is to literally move small economies.



Overall... you give off a general feeling that you know very little outside of high-sec and/or are unfamiliar with how massive and fast logistics operations can get (I've seen thousand man alliances mobilized across the map in a day using freighters and webbers... I know a guy who uses 10 alts with freighters to cripple or supply entire regional economies).
Basically... you seem to not see the "bigger picture" in the game or are willing to consider effects beyond those you are familiar with.
Tobias Hareka
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#20 - 2013-07-21 21:50:40 UTC
Lakitel wrote:
Yeah I know, I did mention that the only Titan in High-sec space is Chribba's. Even so, that doesn't stop the freighter from being ganked, which with such a juicy target in the cargobay, is very likely. So its still a risk. I don't think it would be completely without issue.


Chribba's titans and supercarriers are in lowsec most of the time according to screenshots.
One of them: http://eve-files.com/chribba/mining_waltz.jpg

What Chribba has in Amarr system is a Amarr Dreadnought called Revelation.

People would just use courier contracts with their alts to bypass any code that would restrict what you can put in the cargohold.
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