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[Odyssey 1.1] Heavy Assault Cruisers

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Chimpface Holocaust
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1101 - 2013-07-21 17:04:40 UTC
Major Trant wrote:
I really don't get the Sacrilege changes

I've got one which I've fitted up with a full rack of HAMs, Dual Prop and 1600mm plate. I've got bags of PG to spare without any fitting mods and it is cap stable.

So you are given it 120 more PG - what for? Especially now that you have removed the option of guns. It needs CPU not PG.

As for Cap, that cap bonus is completely useless.

So after acknowledging that it is sub par to the other HACs, all you've really done is give it a fair-average drone bay. Not counting the MWD bonus that they all get.


I think the cap and PG bonus are for dual rep SACs
JerseyBOI 2
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1102 - 2013-07-21 17:10:26 UTC
Namamai wrote:
Ishtar:

This almost makes up for the ruining of the Deimos.

Gardes reach out to 45km now stock, and Curators to 78km. Two Omnitracks make those 70km and 115km, respectively. However, the guns remain useless as ever, and the tank continues to be an issue. This is basically the only HAC that's not outclassed by Tech3 cruisers or T3 BCs, simply because there is no drone Tech3.

Ultimately, though, it's just a little better -- not enough to really distinguish it from the VNI or Dominix, and certainly not enough to justify the isk or SP investment.

I expect that some plated Ishtar doctrines might emerge as a complement to today's Dominix doctrines. (However, the lack of MJD might be an issue.) However, other than that, it's in the middle of the road of the HAC lineup; it doesn't really excel at anything, which is a problem given the Tech2 concept of "better than T1 for specialized role." What is the Ishtar's role?

Muninn:

Some win, some loss.

Shield arty Muninns weren't using their option highs anyways other than small neuts. They get to fit a damage control for an extra 8k EHP, or a third TE (to compensate for the tracking nerf), or a nano; they gain an 11% DPS due to the arty ROF gain. Ultimately, Elo Knight will be happy, but their position in the Eve meta won't change here.

Armor Muninns (stop laughing) don't really change either. The AC+HAM fit is gone, obviously; the only real fit now is 5x 220mm ACs + med neut, and you pick up a lowslot for a gyro. Net DPS ends up being about the same.

Vagabond:

I'm flabbergasted at how foolish this change is. The Vagabond was already functionally obsolete compared to the Cynabal, and they've actually managed to make it worse. The ranting for this is best put at a separate post, after this.

In summary:

Three terrible changes. Two no-ops. And three ships that are slightly better than before, but ultimately remain outclassed by Tech3 cruisers or Tier-3 BCs, both in absolute performance and in bang-for-isk/sp ratios.

Wormhole dwellers, Naga/Tornado/Cynabal producers, and T1 cruiser fans: you have nothing to fear at this time. It's almost angering how bad these changes are.


@Namamai you know the fact that omni's and drone speed mods not being high slot mods **** this ships true potential amirite?
ConranAntoni
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#1103 - 2013-07-21 17:18:47 UTC
Rabble rabble rabble AHAC DOESN'T WORK FOR MY PERSONAL PLAYSTYLE IMMA CRY TILL CCP LISTENS TO ME BITCHING RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE.

Empyrean Warriors - Recruiting now.
JerseyBOI 2
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1104 - 2013-07-21 17:27:02 UTC
ConranAntoni wrote:
Rabble rabble rabble AHAC DOESN'T WORK FOR MY PERSONAL PLAYSTYLE IMMA CRY TILL CCP LISTENS TO ME BITCHING RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE.


AHAC is niche doctrine stop it lol
Sarkelias Anophius
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#1105 - 2013-07-21 17:29:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Sarkelias Anophius
Major Trant wrote:
I really don't get the Sacrilege changes

I've got one which I've fitted up with a full rack of HAMs, Dual Prop and 1600mm plate. I've got bags of PG to spare without any fitting mods and it is cap stable.

So you are given it 120 more PG - what for? Especially now that you have removed the option of guns. It needs CPU not PG.

As for Cap, that cap bonus is completely useless.

So after acknowledging that it is sub par to the other HACs, all you've really done is give it a fair-average drone bay. Not counting the MWD bonus that they all get.


The cap bonus is actually lolzy - cap stable with one rep and medium neut, booster and AAR for tight spots. However, I still firmly hold my position that the Sac needs to drop a high for a low, drop to 4 launchers, and get a bigger damage/RoF bonus. The dronebay is nice, but the extra fitting from dropping a launcher while retaining a utility high would seriously solve every problem I have with this ship.

5/4/6 slot layout. 4 launchers. 7.5% RoF bonus, 10% damage bonus. Fix the Sacrilege, for great justice!

CCP Rise, pllllleeaaaaaassse
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#1106 - 2013-07-21 17:41:52 UTC
M1k3y Koontz wrote:
Garviel Tarrant wrote:
To mare wrote:
vagabond changes are rubbish, it will be slower than the actual one for a useless bonus no one will ever use (no fitting to make use of that),first if you really insist on rolling the speed bonus on the hull then the base speed should be 300 not 290, second any other bonus will be better than a brawling bonus wich doesnt suit the vaga at all (tracking, mass or sig reduction, capacito,r damage or whatever)


You know almost everyone fits their vaga's with XLasb's now right?


And its ridiculously easy to alpha. Needs a 5th mid and more raw shield HP for ASB fits to be viable.



MeBiatch wrote:
one bonus to the attack version and one bonus for the combat versions?


^ This



Oh yea, obviously, a 4 mid 5 low shield tanker is ******* ********. Rise basically balanced the vaga around a lolfit.

BYDI recruitment closed-ish

Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#1107 - 2013-07-21 18:01:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Arthur Aihaken
So... do any of the old or (proposed) new HACs not suck? After 56 pages I'm still eagerly awaiting a solid set of proposed counterchanges.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Sarkelias Anophius
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#1108 - 2013-07-21 18:23:25 UTC
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
So... do any of the old or (proposed) new HACs not suck? After 56 pages I'm still eagerly awaiting a solid set of proposed counterchanges.


Well, I think my (continually edited) Sacrilege counterchanges are productive.

Beyond that, however, the role bonus is useless unless base sig is reduced to t1 cruiser size, and some other valid issues with ships I care less about have been brought up. When I'm not on my phone I may compile a post of the best ideas I've seen.
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#1109 - 2013-07-21 18:35:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Harvey James
Onictus wrote:
Harvey James wrote:
gardes look like they need a nerf on their tracking they track the same as ogres which is odd and combined with domis/ ishtars proposed bonuses and omnis they can track aswell as medium guns but with sniper range.


No gardes don't need a nerf




dude those domis are tracking like Autocannons but at 80km plus its insane OP .. i think maybe the 10% tracking and optimal range might be too strong... especially combined with the tracking and range of gardes
Also no other ship gets a 10% tracking bonus .. could you imagine if the Apoc got 10% tracking and range bonus combined aswell as a damage bonus?

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
M1k3y Koontz
Speaker for the Dead
Shadow Cartel
#1110 - 2013-07-21 18:39:34 UTC
ConranAntoni wrote:
Rabble rabble rabble AHAC DOESN'T WORK FOR MY PERSONAL PLAYSTYLE IMMA CRY TILL CCP LISTENS TO ME BITCHING RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE.


0/10 troll.

How much herp could a herp derp derp if a herp derp could herp derp.
JerseyBOI 2
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1111 - 2013-07-21 18:56:16 UTC
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
So... do any of the old or (proposed) new HACs not suck? After 56 pages I'm still eagerly awaiting a solid set of proposed counterchanges.



Well for one lets divide the 2 racial ships into attack and combat roles. ONE of these roles NEEDS to be a nano/kiter. Don't really care what they do with the other role as I have no use for HACS outside small gang pvp (hasn't there been enough ships created for blob warfare?). They should be the fastest hulls (after frigs) in the game. Dedicating this whole class of ships to AHAC faggotry is just pointless IMO.
JerseyBOI 2
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1112 - 2013-07-21 18:58:02 UTC  |  Edited by: JerseyBOI 2
Harvey James wrote:
Onictus wrote:
Harvey James wrote:
gardes look like they need a nerf on their tracking they track the same as ogres which is odd and combined with domis/ ishtars proposed bonuses and omnis they can track aswell as medium guns but with sniper range.


No gardes don't need a nerf




dude those domis are tracking like Autocannons but at 80km plus its insane OP .. i think maybe the 10% tracking and optimal range might be too strong... especially combined with the tracking and range of gardes
Also no other ship gets a 10% tracking bonus .. could you imagine if the Apoc got 10% tracking and range bonus combined aswell as a damage bonus?



No other BS has so much killable DPS...
No other BS is so easily separated from it's DPS range wise...
adapt or stop shitposting...
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#1113 - 2013-07-21 19:17:22 UTC
JerseyBOI 2 wrote:
Harvey James wrote:
Onictus wrote:
Harvey James wrote:
gardes look like they need a nerf on their tracking they track the same as ogres which is odd and combined with domis/ ishtars proposed bonuses and omnis they can track aswell as medium guns but with sniper range.


No gardes don't need a nerf




dude those domis are tracking like Autocannons but at 80km plus its insane OP .. i think maybe the 10% tracking and optimal range might be too strong... especially combined with the tracking and range of gardes
Also no other ship gets a 10% tracking bonus .. could you imagine if the Apoc got 10% tracking and range bonus combined aswell as a damage bonus?



No other BS has so much killable DPS...
No other BS is so easily separated from it's DPS range wise...
adapt or stop shitposting...


errr... lasers and blasters are neutable ....or jammable or dampeble ..... missiles are killable... smartbombs and bombs
so who is shitposting exactly?

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
JerseyBOI 2
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1114 - 2013-07-21 19:26:47 UTC
Harvey James wrote:
JerseyBOI 2 wrote:
Harvey James wrote:
Onictus wrote:
Harvey James wrote:
gardes look like they need a nerf on their tracking they track the same as ogres which is odd and combined with domis/ ishtars proposed bonuses and omnis they can track aswell as medium guns but with sniper range.


No gardes don't need a nerf




dude those domis are tracking like Autocannons but at 80km plus its insane OP .. i think maybe the 10% tracking and optimal range might be too strong... especially combined with the tracking and range of gardes
Also no other ship gets a 10% tracking bonus .. could you imagine if the Apoc got 10% tracking and range bonus combined aswell as a damage bonus?



No other BS has so much killable DPS...
No other BS is so easily separated from it's DPS range wise...
adapt or stop shitposting...


errr... lasers and blasters are neutable ....or jammable or dampeble ..... missiles are killable... smartbombs and bombs
so who is shitposting exactly?



So you would have senrtry drones (I assume thats what were talking about here) have the same disadvantages as turret based ships? You shouldn't underestimate the advantage of having weapon range to target, and ship range to target identical. Oh yeah and the fact that your turrets cant be targeted and killed/bombed until your useless.
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1115 - 2013-07-21 19:51:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Onictus
Harvey James wrote:
Onictus wrote:
Harvey James wrote:
gardes look like they need a nerf on their tracking they track the same as ogres which is odd and combined with domis/ ishtars proposed bonuses and omnis they can track aswell as medium guns but with sniper range.


No gardes don't need a nerf




dude those domis are tracking like Autocannons but at 80km plus its insane OP .. i think maybe the 10% tracking and optimal range might be too strong... especially combined with the tracking and range of gardes
Also no other ship gets a 10% tracking bonus .. could you imagine if the Apoc got 10% tracking and range bonus combined aswell as a damage bonus?


So what, just bomb/smartbomb.

I've spent a large amount of time on the receiving end of domi and slowcat fleets. Other than boring the pilots to death they aren't all that.

Sure they track like mad for a BS weapon system but there are issues

1) can't ******* move, because of this you basically fly around the drone herd
2) bombs/smart bombs can basically neuter a domi fleet, the joy a re-assigning drones with the crappy interface means you are loosing a lot of DPS time everytime you have to pull and relaunch your drones
3) can really only be used defensively (see #1)
4) Boring boring boring
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#1116 - 2013-07-21 19:51:54 UTC
all i said was gardes are OP combined with domis bonuses.... you kicked up the fuss mate

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1117 - 2013-07-21 19:58:12 UTC
Harvey James wrote:
all i said was gardes are OP combined with domis bonuses.... you kicked up the fuss mate



How many full fleets of done ships have you fought?

As it pertains to this topic, the Ishtar is still going to be far from OP because of fitting. This is a ship that basically can't fit turrets because it is so hosed by its fittings.

For Domis, just get into the drone field with smartboms, or bomb them, NO battleship can carry more than 4 full flights.
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#1118 - 2013-07-21 20:06:47 UTC
Onictus wrote:
Harvey James wrote:
all i said was gardes are OP combined with domis bonuses.... you kicked up the fuss mate



How many full fleets of done ships have you fought?

As it pertains to this topic, the Ishtar is still going to be far from OP because of fitting. This is a ship that basically can't fit turrets because it is so hosed by its fittings.

For Domis, just get into the drone field with smartboms, or bomb them, NO battleship can carry more than 4 full flights.


you're kind of missing the point here..... gardes are tracking like autocannons but with Artie range on Domis... this is clearly wrong and unbalanced.
stop making this about dronebays and losing drones .. that is a different issue altogether

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1119 - 2013-07-21 20:11:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Onictus
Harvey James wrote:
Onictus wrote:
Harvey James wrote:
all i said was gardes are OP combined with domis bonuses.... you kicked up the fuss mate



How many full fleets of done ships have you fought?

As it pertains to this topic, the Ishtar is still going to be far from OP because of fitting. This is a ship that basically can't fit turrets because it is so hosed by its fittings.

For Domis, just get into the drone field with smartboms, or bomb them, NO battleship can carry more than 4 full flights.


you're kind of missing the point here..... gardes are tracking like autocannons but with Artie range on Domis... this is clearly wrong and unbalanced.
stop making this about dronebays and losing drones .. that is a different issue altogether



No it isn't mainly because its permanently counterable. You have to dock up or scoop more drones in space. There is no otherway to refill the drone bay.

and garde range is nothing close to 1400mm arty range, more like 720, their big advantage is sig radius.....tracking is really a secondary concern.
Christopher Multsanti
TEMPLAR.
The Initiative.
#1120 - 2013-07-21 20:22:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Christopher Multsanti
Ok for all of you who didn't watch the alliance tournament, Fozzie and Rise commented on this thread and Rise said that in regard to the feedback everyone has given, he is going to look again at the hacs as he initially he is a bit conservative when making changes to ships in eve.

So my advice would start posting coherent arguments on changes you want to see. Because there will be changes.

Haulers Kill Vagabond!