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[Odyssey 1.1] Medium Rail, Beam and Artillery rebalance

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Akimo Heth
State War Academy
Caldari State
#201 - 2013-07-20 04:10:26 UTC
Tobias Hareka wrote:
Baren wrote:
It Is Time To Fix How turrets use Sig and Tracking


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WT8VqVcLDqc

Quote:
ABC's


Astarte, Brutix, Celestis?
That's interesting setup...

Quote:
Missle's Need to be added to this balance.

Missles were nerfed and Once this update comes, they will be soo far behind.[/b]


Missiles are fine. Well, defenders need some work.


Yes HM's are fine NOW, with all other weapons 20% buffed, there's an imbalance. HM's used to be OP but were nerfed to bring them into line with other LR weapons and currently on TQ they're definitely not 20% better than all other medium LR weapons but leaving them out of this buff is basically saying they are.
Baren
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#202 - 2013-07-20 04:13:52 UTC
Missles and Drones please CCP


or this will make your balance very un-balanced
Tobias Hareka
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#203 - 2013-07-20 05:30:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Tobias Hareka
Akimo Heth wrote:
Yes HM's are fine NOW, with all other weapons 20% buffed, there's an imbalance. HM's used to be OP but were nerfed to bring them into line with other LR weapons and currently on TQ they're definitely not 20% better than all other medium LR weapons but leaving them out of this buff is basically saying they are.


I didn't know that medium rails can do 400-500 dps at 50km currently. Damn, I have to start using those right now.

Looks like it is indeed possible.

[Ferox, 400 dps at HM range]

Cormack's Modified Magnetic Field Stabilizer
Cormack's Modified Magnetic Field Stabilizer
Cormack's Modified Magnetic Field Stabilizer
Cormack's Modified Magnetic Field Stabilizer

Cormack's Modified Tracking Computer, Optimal Range Script
Cormack's Modified Tracking Computer, Optimal Range Script
Cormack's Modified Tracking Computer, Optimal Range Script
Cormack's Modified Tracking Computer, Optimal Range Script

250mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Plutonium Charge M
250mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Plutonium Charge M
250mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Plutonium Charge M
250mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Plutonium Charge M
250mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Plutonium Charge M
250mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Plutonium Charge M
250mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Plutonium Charge M

But there's a small problem, and I know you can figure it out by yourself.
goldddigger
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#204 - 2013-07-20 05:46:06 UTC
Tobias Hareka wrote:
Akimo Heth wrote:
Yes HM's are fine NOW, with all other weapons 20% buffed, there's an imbalance. HM's used to be OP but were nerfed to bring them into line with other LR weapons and currently on TQ they're definitely not 20% better than all other medium LR weapons but leaving them out of this buff is basically saying they are.


I didn't know that medium rails can do 400-500 dps at 50km currently. Damn, I have to start using those right now.

Looks like it is indeed possible.

[Ferox, 400 dps at HM range]

Cormack's Modified Magnetic Field Stabilizer
Cormack's Modified Magnetic Field Stabilizer
Cormack's Modified Magnetic Field Stabilizer
Cormack's Modified Magnetic Field Stabilizer

Cormack's Modified Tracking Computer, Optimal Range Script
Cormack's Modified Tracking Computer, Optimal Range Script
Cormack's Modified Tracking Computer, Optimal Range Script
Cormack's Modified Tracking Computer, Optimal Range Script

250mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Plutonium Charge M
250mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Plutonium Charge M
250mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Plutonium Charge M
250mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Plutonium Charge M
250mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Plutonium Charge M
250mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Plutonium Charge M
250mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Plutonium Charge M

But there's a small problem, and I know you can figure it out by yourself.


thats also what i meant i was talking about a insta cane but the ferox with the right fitting also has a alpha strike

wel medium arty and similar is now just useless

i wish they would stop unbalancing the game and just fix bugs that would make a lot of ppl a lot more happier
Akimo Heth
State War Academy
Caldari State
#205 - 2013-07-20 05:46:26 UTC
Tobias Hareka wrote:
Akimo Heth wrote:
Yes HM's are fine NOW, with all other weapons 20% buffed, there's an imbalance. HM's used to be OP but were nerfed to bring them into line with other LR weapons and currently on TQ they're definitely not 20% better than all other medium LR weapons but leaving them out of this buff is basically saying they are.


I didn't know that medium rails can do 400-500 dps at 50km currently. Damn, I have to start using those right now.

Looks like it is indeed possible.

[Ferox, 400 dps at HM range]

Cormack's Modified Magnetic Field Stabilizer
Cormack's Modified Magnetic Field Stabilizer
Cormack's Modified Magnetic Field Stabilizer
Cormack's Modified Magnetic Field Stabilizer

Cormack's Modified Tracking Computer, Optimal Range Script
Cormack's Modified Tracking Computer, Optimal Range Script
Cormack's Modified Tracking Computer, Optimal Range Script
Cormack's Modified Tracking Computer, Optimal Range Script

250mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Plutonium Charge M
250mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Plutonium Charge M
250mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Plutonium Charge M
250mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Plutonium Charge M
250mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Plutonium Charge M
250mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Plutonium Charge M
250mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Plutonium Charge M

But there's a small problem, and I know you can figure it out by yourself.


The problem being that paper dps does not mean applied dps, you're not going to hit 400-500 dps on a non-stationary target with HML's with their explosion velocity getting nerfed the way it did. Is that the problem you're referring to?
Tobias Hareka
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#206 - 2013-07-20 05:52:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Tobias Hareka
Akimo Heth wrote:
The problem being that paper dps does not mean applied dps, you're not going to hit 400-500 dps on a non-stationary target with HML's with their explosion velocity getting nerfed the way it did. Is that the problem you're referring to?


Compare price of that Ferox fit to your brick Drake fit.

I know you use brick Drake because you can't seem to hit moving targets with heavy missiles.

- Target painter
- Web
- Medium Warhead Rigor Catalyst
- Medium Warhead Flare Catalyst
- Guided Missile Precision 5

Just FYI, I can hit orbiting frigates with Javelins especially if they are in web range. And that's with ship that was fit way before HAMs got buffed.
Akimo Heth
State War Academy
Caldari State
#207 - 2013-07-20 05:58:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Akimo Heth
Tobias Hareka wrote:
Akimo Heth wrote:
The problem being that paper dps does not mean applied dps, you're not going to hit 400-500 dps on a non-stationary target with HML's with their explosion velocity getting nerfed the way it did. Is that the problem you're referring to?


Compare price of that Ferox fit to your brick Drake fit.

I know you use brick Drake because you can't seem to hit moving targets with heavy missiles.

- Target painter
- Web
- Medium Warhead Rigor Catalyst
- Medium Warhead Flare Catalyst
- Guided Missile Precision 5


Both fits use 4 mods to apply dps though the web won't be very useful at 50k. So let's leave HML's completely out of a 30+% buff because the fit is too cheap?

I'm not calling HML's underpowered, they're fine on TQ. You must be saying they're incredibly overpowered right now if a 30+% buff to rails and 25% buff to beams will be balanced against them.
Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#208 - 2013-07-20 07:00:41 UTC
-15% to rails tracking

lol

Balance team, you need to get your **** together and make a comprehensive plan about ships and weapon systems. Consult the playerbase on what belongs to where, where the problems are and how you could to solve them. The tweaking of stats is the very last, and least important, stage when the plan is solid.

Now it appears like you start by tweaking random, individual stats one by one in isolation, and hope it somehow all comes together in the end.

.
Jezza McWaffle
Lazerhawks
L A Z E R H A W K S
#209 - 2013-07-20 08:49:54 UTC
Beams still have the highest fitting requirement and cap draw amount of all the long range med weapons CCP. Combined with armor tanking requiring alot of PG too no one is going to use Beams still.

Wormholes worst badass | Checkout my Wormhole blog
Sergeant Acht Scultz
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#210 - 2013-07-20 11:28:36 UTC
Shahai Shintaro wrote:
People seem to have issues with the T3 BC. But honestly, aren't they just less tanky battleships? All of their damage numbers should be similar to that of a battleship and they should be much easier to kill thanks to their weak tanks. So what am I missing that they are seen as over powered?



Major problem with those it when you fit long range weapons on them coupled with a higher mobility than your AHAC, there's no way a decent FC gets caught by your AHAC gang but at each bubble you see pop over your gang you can be sure your guys gonna pop like popcorn.
These long range set ups are completely out of whack, overpowered and all you need is 30 or 40 of them camping whatever gate at 70/80 km and nothing you pass through that gate is going to survive unless you pop 10 times their numbers.

The close range versions are of, paper thin big dps but have to commit, the long range versions are simply totally OP and taking the spot of specialized sniping role of HACS AND BSs, for a T1 ship with as much EHP than a naked cruiser it's a bit stupid.

removed inappropriate ASCII art signature - CCP Eterne
Sergeant Acht Scultz
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#211 - 2013-07-20 11:32:08 UTC
Roime wrote:
-15% to rails tracking

lol

Balance team, you need to get your **** together and make a comprehensive plan about ships and weapon systems. Consult the playerbase on what belongs to where, where the problems are and how you could to solve them. The tweaking of stats is the very last, and least important, stage when the plan is solid.

Now it appears like you start by tweaking random, individual stats one by one in isolation, and hope it somehow all comes together in the end.




This

It's been proven dozens of times one of the major factors of rails dps IS TRACKING, now with -15 tracking rather not touch them at all, they'll still be horrible as per usual even if they give them 50% tops dps.

Only snowflakes will come with uber techniques about alignment and perfect crap in their perfect little virtual word no one cares about.

removed inappropriate ASCII art signature - CCP Eterne
Sergeant Acht Scultz
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#212 - 2013-07-20 11:38:05 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Ezwal
Garviel Tarrant wrote:
mama guru wrote:
Harvey James wrote:
CCP Rise is there any intention to do a ammo review ?
-50% and -75% penalties are too high for long range guns


This right here.

These bonuses MUST be reviewed if all LR medium guns take about 10% additional tracking penalties.


More like SR gun t2 ammo should have penalties as high as that.



Certainly not.

Nerf scorch? -hell yes

Hail and Void on the right spot? -you're kidding or trolling us, even my rocket frigates shoot further,
*Snip* Please refrain from personal attacks. ISD Ezwal
Lol

removed inappropriate ASCII art signature - CCP Eterne
Sergeant Acht Scultz
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#213 - 2013-07-20 11:55:19 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Ezwal
Tobias Hareka wrote:
I didn't know that medium rails can do 400-500 dps at 50km currently. Damn, I have to start using those right now.



Aw indeed awesome fit, I couldn't do any better because I'm terrible at fittings, let me show you:

[Brutix LOLHAHAHA]

Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
800mm Reinforced Steel Plates II
Energized Explosive Membrane II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Damage Control II

Experimental 10MN Microwarpdrive I
Sensor Booster II, Scan Resolution Script
Sensor Booster II, Targeting Range Script
Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script

250mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
250mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
250mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
250mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
250mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
250mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
[Empty High slot]

Medium Ancillary Current Router I
Medium Trimark Armor Pump I
Medium Trimark Armor Pump I


Hammerhead II x5

382 Guns DPS all skills 5 at 20.7+19.5km, then add the awesome sauce dps from drones 158 dps for a total 540DPS, now don't even try to fit long range ammo on your rails or you will feel like hara-kiri


I'm sure I can do a little better with Federation Navy drones and an officer fit but I'm not quite sure Lol
Yet this doesn't prove how horrible HM's are but ONLY how much of a piece of **** long range medium guns ARE.

Also: -15% tracking?? - *Snip* Please refrain from personal attacks. ISD Ezwal

removed inappropriate ASCII art signature - CCP Eterne
Axloth Okiah
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#214 - 2013-07-20 13:22:01 UTC
medium rails and beams need to be a bit easier to fit

SSC Brokering Service
Selmak Kado
The Maverick Navy
#215 - 2013-07-20 14:33:05 UTC

I don't want to less tracking on any of these weapon systems. Less tracking on these guns makes them even less viable for usage in ANY situation.
Chessur
Full Broadside
Deepwater Hooligans
#216 - 2013-07-20 15:59:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Chessur
My biggest problem with these weapon systems right now is the fitting. Take 250mm Rails for example.

Currently the thorax, Navy Exq, Moa, and Eagle just can't fit them.

Heavy beams / arty are worse. The fititng requirements are too large, and the ships that woud have the most to gain from this buff will be forced to gimp the rest of their fittings in order to fit their largest respective guns. Please adress this. Because if you fail to do so, rails / beams / artys will still be horrible for PvP because only a few select ships will be able to fit them along with a proper PvP fit.
Bloodpetal
Tir Capital Management Group
#217 - 2013-07-20 17:08:40 UTC
I really would like to see more range on Medium weapons. The ranges are pretty sad in general. 10-12 kms is hardly "long range" by todays standards. 20ish would be ideal, in my opinion.

Thanks for listening.

Where I am.
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#218 - 2013-07-20 17:12:16 UTC
Bloodpetal wrote:
I really would like to see more range on Medium weapons. The ranges are pretty sad in general. 10-12 kms is hardly "long range" by todays standards. 20ish would be ideal, in my opinion.

Thanks for listening.




I assuming you're looking at T2 -75% high damage ammo and some -50% T1/faction high damage ammo these do need to be fixed amongst all ammo in the game really needs a looking at

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
Scatim Helicon
State War Academy
Caldari State
#219 - 2013-07-20 19:00:48 UTC
I don't claim to be a Numbers Guy, however I can't help feeling that these modifications are hitting the problem from the wrong end. One of the largest problems with medium turrets is the comparison with the large turrets used on BSs and the overgunned Attack Battlecruisers, which do much more damage but with a reduced ability to effectively hit small targets. Your proposed fix here is to ... make them do more damage but with a reduced ability to effectively hit smaller targets?

Would it not be better to further differentiate between medium and large turrets by either improving the tracking of mediums or degrading the tracking of larges, rather than pushing the two categories closer together? Or if not that, reworking the tracking formula as others have said to expand the medium turret niche (with my earlier disclaimer that I Am Not A Numbers Guy in mind).

Every time you post a WiS thread, Hilmar strangles a kitten.
Whitehound
#220 - 2013-07-20 19:22:03 UTC
Seems fine.

Lowering tracking for more damage will give players more to think about.

Loss is meaningful. Therefore is the loss of meaning likewise meaningful. It is the source of all trolling.