Player Features and Ideas Discussion

"I would have gotten away with it too if it weren't for you meddling capsuleers, and your EWAR drone too."

You don't understand. They just need to be removed. Completely.

i do understand i just dont agree

There is nothing inherently wrong with ECM drones. Removing them from the game would be detrimental as a whole. It would leave a noticeable hole in the types of EWAR drone available. There is also nothing inherently wrong with Falcons, Rooks, Black birds, Scorpions, Widows, or ECM at all. It is a very valid and effective EWAR as are the other 3 verities of EWAR.

The issue with ECM is its poor scaling. The smaller you go in engagement size the more effective ECM appears. The larger the engagement the less effective ECM appears. In small gangs a single Falcon is devastating to the opposing side. As an FC I have won and lost small gang fights because of a falcon. In a SOV fight a falcon would attract only the passing attention of an easy kill.

If you step back and take a look ECM is arguably the least destructive of the EWAR verities with the exception of TPs. You can sensor damp a target to the point that they can't lock anything. The great advantage of damps over ECM is that damps don't miss. You can make the argument that tracking disruption is more effective than ECM because it has the potential to prevent a ship from being able to track anything. How frustrating is it that you can lock a target, but you can't track it to kill it? Of course TDs don't work against logistics, EWAR, or missile boats which would make it less effective than ECM.

In other words ECM, damps, and tracking disruption all have the potential to remove enemies from the fight. ECM and damps prevent you from locking and TDs prevent your guns from doing anything. ECM is balanced in the way that it has a non-trivial chance of outright failing none of the other EWARs have. ECM lasts 20 seconds, SDs and TDs are forever. The other balancing factor is ECM is a mid-slot module in a race that is purely shield tanking. The other 3 races can fill their mids with EWAR and put together a reasonable armor tank. It is no mystery that this is why the CFC celestis fleets are so successful. They are combining never miss EWAR with a ship that can tank long enough for logi to rep them. Caldari ships can put together a tissue paper armor tank at best.

The best solution would be to somehow make the scaling of ECM less devastating in smaller engagements. Part of this would be to add FoF ammo to turret weapons. I think you would be surprised how effective FoF is at countering ECM. Another part would be to add something to ECCM modules so it does more than just buff sensor strength. Perhaps ECM drones are too strong due to their multispec ability and jam strength. Perhaps dividing them up racially is what needs to happen or leave them as a multispec while reducing their jam strength. I am willing to bet others have through up additional things that would help ECM be less devastating at a solo or smaller gang level.

The tl;dr is ECM is not nearly as broken as people would have you think.

Smartbombs?

Can they be ineffective? Yes.
Can they be effective? Yes.

That sounds just like every other solid counter out there. Sensor boosters, tracking modifiers, cap modules, ECCM, propulsion modules, signature pills and whatever else (are there still w-stabs in the game? ), none of them are constantly effective or ineffective. Smartbombs remain useful against any drones (and some ships) in a variety of different and changing situations.

I'd much rather still have the option in the game for a single ship on the run to flip some drones on a tackler when the tackler has friends, than I am annoyed at the single ship escaping from me when I have friends and he does not. If drones let someone spring free, it means my guys have not done their job.

In a medium fight, when that may be 50 ECM drones put on a Logi (or to counter a Recon) that makes appropriately using Smartbombs even more exciting.

Having Smartbombs in the meta makes for a more interesting game, on almost every level.

The ECM drones, much like ECM at large are mainly an issue in small solo/pair dualist settings and they are probably noticed much more there since the incessant whining have made proper ECM ships uncommon in those settings .

Though I guess I am just pro anything that goes against the "he had friends, derp" .

Then again, what do I know - CCP seem to be on an offensive against utility high-slots .

Remove universal ECM, and replace with racial. Off-racial ECM does jack ****.

Then halve ECM drone jam strength, and expand drone ship dmg bonus to cover all drone bonuses.

solved

indeed tho it is a bit strong still (not everyone has all skills at 5 and not all have ECCM) i think its safe to say that ECM drones are used a lot because they are pretty good.

if you make the current ECM drones T2 ECM drones and make preq. for them ewar 5 and ewar drones 5 then a lot of people have to do it with the T1s that can be scaled down a bit.

then booste the sensor compensation skills to 5% per lvl instead of 4% per lvl and its fixed!

The OP is suggesting to remove Sensor damping drones, target painting drone, tracking disruptor drones, and ECM drones because ECM drones are OP.

Can you show me on the doll where the EW drone touched you?

EWAR drones are not the real issue, they just currently exploit the underlying issues in the current EWAR model. There are several issues with EWAR in general that need to be addressed and it all comes down to a few simple truths. Those simple truths are that effect stacking is bad, EWAR does not scale and as a result counters to EWAR are just not worth the cost of fitting them.

First, effect stacking is just a bad idea. Even if you apply a diminishing return model you end up with a situation where it become impossible to counter. This applies to every form of EWAR, ECMs, TDs, Webs, Scrams, Neuts, etc. Effect stacking should be used for redundancy of effect not magnification of effect. Changing this would shift they way EWAR is used, and it would even out the effectiveness of EWAR as a tactic across the board regardless of group size. It would be just as effective in small fights as it is in larger fights.

Second, EWAR currently does not scale with ship size. Why not? Larger or specialized ships should have more available power. With more available power they should be able to create a stronger effect from an EWAR module. If we tie EWAR effect strength to ship size and or type, now we have a way to scale EWAR without having to rely on stacking. This is far easier to balance and the stacking model which is currently applied. Re-classing EWAR modules by size like weapons systems also alters their help to balance their effectiveness when used on ships of different scale. Larger modules have a harder time affecting g a smaller target but apply a much larger effect, while smaller targets can easily affect a large target but with a smaller effect.

Third, counters for EWAR under the current model are just now worth the cost of choosing to fit them. EWAR modules are currently of more benefit to use then they counters are. The reason for this is that unless you know what EWAR effects you are likely to encounter every EWAR counter to fit is one slot you could have used for something more useful, while at the same time every EWAR module you fit is an added tool in your arsenal. If given the choice, why would you choose to fit a counter which is only effective under very specific situations when any EWAR module you fit is a benefit in almost all situations? The simple answer is you wouldn't and thus counters to EWAR become almost always a bad choice. The solution is just as simple, every EWAR counter should be an equal and opposing effect.

For example if a TD reduces the tracking speed of the targets turrets by 10% then a Tracking Enhancer should increase the users turret tracking speed by 10%. In this way each module is effective in its own right regardless of other is being used, but if they both have opposing module fit the effects cancel out the other. This I believe is currently how this pair of modules work but not all EWAR and EWAR counter modules work this way currently.

At this point, belt rats can keep a player completely unable to attack unless they have FoF missiles or drones which are set to aggressive.

And just how would FoF Projectile, Hybrid and Crystals work? Just does not make any sense to me. Active vs Passive and Ship vs Self guided would be a more interesting change. Turrets I imagine would have to be ship guided, Missiles and the like could be either ship or self guided and both ships and missiles could used either Active or Passive guidance.