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So why do people hate cloaking?

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Soko99
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#221 - 2013-07-19 20:14:25 UTC
Kijo Rikki wrote:
Am I wrong in thinking an aligned , 75% speed ship of ANY type has an instant warp time from the moment of clicking warp? Because I'm pretty sure that's how it works, if you're aligned and already at 75% speed, you go. now.



Mostly.. sometimes this can be a bit out of whack. My mastodon is notorious for LOOKING like it's aligned.. being at full speed and just sitting there for a full 30 seconds prior to entering warp. (usually happens after it's bounced off a POCO or something).


But yeah, your assessment is quite correct.
Kijo Rikki
Killboard Padding Services
#222 - 2013-07-19 20:15:08 UTC
Victoria Sin wrote:
Kijo Rikki wrote:

You missed the part where I said they will send in the occasional ship with teeth, didn't you?


Again, that's not my experience looking at the KB in the systems we use, no. It might be yours, who knows.


You're missing the point. IF what you say is true, that you have pilots that will afk in your systems for months before making a hotdrop (props for mad dedication, btw. Take my broken hull and display it on your mantle, you deserve it!), then nothing will change. They will send in dummies, cheap ships that won't matter if they are destroyed and give you a false sense of safety.

You'll say to yourself, "huh, they keep sending in these ships with no teeth, lol. I am going to pull out the hulk today, screw them", and then all of a sudden: BAM! Rapier decloaking and pointing.

It's all about striking fear and uncertainty, and if the rules were changed so one ship could not do it, they would send many cheap ships with the shuffled ace card hidden in the deck, so you will never be sure what is cloaked out there. In a way its worse, because it increases traffic into your system and resets any deductive reasoning there might be because you can't reasonably assume every ship that jumps in every few hours to replace the last will be afk. And under your new rules, any ship that remains afk doesnt have a probability of being a threat, it is a 100% certainty that person is a threat.

You make a valid point, good Sir or Madam. 
Soko99
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#223 - 2013-07-19 20:16:59 UTC
Victoria Sin wrote:
Kijo Rikki wrote:
Am I wrong in thinking an aligned , 75% speed ship of ANY type has an instant warp time from the moment of clicking warp? Because I'm pretty sure that's how it works, if you're aligned and already at 75% speed, you go. now.


So, in your opinion, the counter to cloaking/hot-dropping, is being prepared and paying attention.


Fixed that for you.
Doc Fury
Furious Enterprises
#224 - 2013-07-19 20:20:24 UTC
Victoria Sin wrote:
Doc Fury wrote:

Or, if they are "a known red hot-dropper/AFK cloaker" as you say (a known element) then take the fight to them, and afk cloak one of their systems and bring a hotdrop of your own.


If I think AFK cloaking is BS, why would I go and AFK cloak someone else? That would be an inconsistent position to hold I think.


So just because you think something is BS you demand that CCP make changes, because anything you think is BS is "bad game design".

Gotcha.

You have choices here (as many have pointed out here and in the eleventy-eleventy other afk cloaker threads) but you are either too lazy or stupid to use them. I suspect both.

☼

There's a million angry citizens looking down their tubes..at me.
Victoria Sin
Doomheim
#225 - 2013-07-19 20:24:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Victoria Sin
Kijo Rikki wrote:

You're missing the point. IF what you say is true, that you have pilots that will afk in your systems for months


You don't do your argument any favours by exaggerating what I'm saying for dramatic effect. Months? I said he'll probably be here a week or two. That's the MO. He could sit there for months in theory and in order to catch him we'd probably have to run an operation involving a dozen or more players (to counter the potential hot-drop) for that long to even have a *chance* of catching him.

Meanwhile, he can pick and choose his moment. It's not just one player. Quite a few do it. It's kind-of a hobby for some people, whilst doing something else on their mains (i.e. not much effort involved on their part compared to that required by the defenders to do anything at all about it). He's not "playing" the game most of the time on that character. But we don't know for sure. That's how things go at the moment, and that's poor game design.

I don't think if CCP were to create Eve 2, from scratch, they'd balance it out like this. Perhaps they won't change it because of the tears of the AFK cloakers/hot-droppers who want to irritate the locals in a risk-free way. Perhaps they will eventually change it when the tears from the other side get too much. That's how Eve has developed over time isn't it.
Soko99
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#226 - 2013-07-19 20:24:41 UTC
Victoria Sin wrote:
Kijo Rikki wrote:

And he pointed out he wasnt aligned, which is one of those points of advice we've been trying to hand to you.


You say you mine with reds in local and that's OK because you're aligned? Absurd. I don't know anyone who does that. When a red comes into local, they GTFO if they're mining or running an anom. How can you come out with the above and keep a straight face?

Now I know you're just trolling me.



Same way you mine in a WH where you have NO idea at any one time that there's anyone that's a threat in system with you. (Granted the new popup signatures/anomalies are a handy tool to let us see it, but it's also one that makes it almost impossible to now lock down a system since entry WHs seemed to be scanned more frequently now)
Victoria Sin
Doomheim
#227 - 2013-07-19 20:26:22 UTC
Doc Fury wrote:

So just because you think something is BS you demand that CCP make changes, because anything you think is BS is "bad game design".


I didn't "demand" anything. I gave my opinion and we have debated it. I said what I do to counter it (go somewhere else). I'm OK with that. I don't have to pay the infrastructure bills.
Victoria Sin
Doomheim
#228 - 2013-07-19 20:26:46 UTC
Soko99 wrote:

Same way you mine in a WH where you have NO idea at any one time that there's anyone that's a threat in system with you. (Granted the new popup signatures/anomalies are a handy tool to let us see it, but it's also one that makes it almost impossible to now lock down a system since entry WHs seemed to be scanned more frequently now)


There was a thread elsewhere about WH inhabitants being nuts. Lol
Doc Fury
Furious Enterprises
#229 - 2013-07-19 20:30:46 UTC
Victoria Sin wrote:
Doc Fury wrote:

So just because you think something is BS you demand that CCP make changes, because anything you think is BS is "bad game design".


I said what I do to counter it (go somewhere else). I'm OK with that. I don't have to pay the infrastructure bills.


O.K. then you are making a choice that works, one of many available to you.

So how exactly is cloaking bad game design?


☼

There's a million angry citizens looking down their tubes..at me.
Eka Lawrencia
Different Drummers
#230 - 2013-07-19 20:33:11 UTC
The problem, as always, is the insistence to work alone. Cooperation gives the flexibility to engage the cloakers should they attack, or flee easily.
Victoria Sin
Doomheim
#231 - 2013-07-19 20:33:39 UTC
Doc Fury wrote:

So how exactly is cloaking bad game design?


Read the thread. I'm sick of reiterating it.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#232 - 2013-07-19 20:33:45 UTC
Are all renters this awful at the game, with the same self victimization mindset as this, or are any of them any good?

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#233 - 2013-07-19 20:35:26 UTC
Victoria Sin wrote:
Doc Fury wrote:

So how exactly is cloaking bad game design?


Read the thread. I'm sick of reiterating it.


You have yet to actually say anything, besides "I hate it so it should go away!"

Such puerile attempts at debate do not fly here.

Actually speak something of substance, and back up the nonsense you are slinging, or just concede the point and shut up for once.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Manfred Hideous
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#234 - 2013-07-19 20:35:26 UTC
Victoria Sin wrote:
Kijo Rikki wrote:

You're missing the point. IF what you say is true, that you have pilots that will afk in your systems for months


You don't do your argument any favours by exaggerating what I'm saying for dramatic effect. Months? I said he'll probably be here a week or two. That's the MO. He could sit there for months in theory and in order to catch him we'd probably have to run an operation involving a dozen or more players (to counter the potential hot-drop) for that long to even have a *chance* of catching him.

Meanwhile, he can pick and choose his moment. It's not just one player. Quite a few do it. It's kind-of a hobby for some people, whilst doing something else on their mains (i.e. not much effort involved on their part compared to that required by the defenders to do anything at all about it). He's not "playing" the game most of the time on that character. But we don't know for sure. That's how things go at the moment, and that's poor game design.

I don't think if CCP were to create Eve 2, from scratch, they'd balance it out like this. Perhaps they won't change it because of the tears of the AFK cloakers/hot-droppers who want to irritate the locals in a risk-free way. Perhaps they will eventually change it when the tears from the other side get too much. That's how Eve has developed over time isn't it.


It's hardly risk free. Ev0ke did a great job keeping me from getting too lazy and I've lost some ships to them. I even built up good German/USA relations at the same time (not because I killed Orcas but because I chatted with them).

If you would put some effort into it like having a Sabre nearby or Baiting up your tank with a response team close at hand, you'd kill them. .
Doc Fury
Furious Enterprises
#235 - 2013-07-19 20:36:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Doc Fury
Victoria Sin wrote:
Doc Fury wrote:

So how exactly is cloaking bad game design?


Read the thread. I'm sick of reiterating it.



Then just link it for me please, I'm not seeing it, and others have asked for the same, but you don't seem to be able or willing to do it.

Surely you can link to your information if it exists?

☼

There's a million angry citizens looking down their tubes..at me.
Kijo Rikki
Killboard Padding Services
#236 - 2013-07-19 20:36:05 UTC
Victoria Sin wrote:
Kijo Rikki wrote:

You're missing the point. IF what you say is true, that you have pilots that will afk in your systems for months


You don't do your argument any favours by exaggerating what I'm saying for dramatic effect. Months? I said he'll probably be here a week or two. That's the MO.


Do you honestly think that weakens my argument any at all? What? He could be there for hours or days and the effect is still the same.

Quote:

Meanwhile, he can pick and choose his moment. It's not just one player. Quite a few do it. It's kind-of a hobby for some people, whilst doing something else on their mains (i.e. not much effort involved on their part compared to that required by the defenders to do anything at all about it). He's not "playing" the game most of the time on that character. But we don't know for sure. That's how things go at the moment, and that's poor game design.


Does it help to know that in most every MMO that has a stealth class that there is no mechanic to decloak them other than stepping on them? Oh I forgot WoW Hunters can run around throwing flares out but honestly, I always laughed as I stalked them on my druid. I guess you could make some sort of depth charge mechanic but in the vastness of space where safes are commonly made phat chance of ever finding them.

Anyway, while this guy is playing on his other toon there is a very real possibility he has the same problem as you. Though I suspect he deals with it quite differently. Quit asserting that your fear of uncertainty means cloaking is a broken mechanic. Because not only are there things you can do to either bait him or escape them, it is really no different than a ship that jumps in system that is a fast interceptor, and can simply afk while burning up from a safe, or a player that jump cloned in station and is just sitting there. At any moment the situation can change based on that players initial move that will put you in a position of inescapable combat. So why not learn to deal with it by learning to be the wolf and not the sheep?

If you go punch the schoolyard bully often he thinks twice about picking on you.

You make a valid point, good Sir or Madam. 
Sura Sadiva
Entropic Tactical Crew
#237 - 2013-07-19 20:38:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Sura Sadiva
Folks, it's a waste of time insisting in argumenting and explaining things to them.
Nobody of them care, is not about mechanics working fine or broken, is not about balance, none of them give a ****.
The tue reasons has been clearly stated:

Victoria Sin wrote:

I would have thought my motives were clear. I want AFK cloaking gimped so that eventually the side "policing" the system can get a crack at finding him.



In their mind holding sovreignity means they rented some cluster on CCP server to admin as they please, like a web hosting, a private playground/PVE server they can open or lock with no effort. And where this minority can decide what players and what gamestyles are allowed and what is not. And this not due to their effort but simply becuase "we cry more and we'll continue cry"

Cloacking and hotdrops are the only elements out of this controls That's exactly why cloacking and hotdrops and any other "eversive" (against their reign of boredom) dynamic is a good thing for the general EVE gameplay.
Victoria Sin
Doomheim
#238 - 2013-07-19 20:41:47 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Are all renters this awful at the game, with the same self victimization mindset as this, or are any of them any good?


I'm not a renter.
Victoria Sin
Doomheim
#239 - 2013-07-19 20:42:30 UTC
Doc Fury wrote:

Then just link it for me please, I'm not seeing it, and others have asked for the same, but you don't seem to be able or willing to do it.


Bs.
Doc Fury
Furious Enterprises
#240 - 2013-07-19 20:44:17 UTC
Victoria Sin wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Are all renters this awful at the game, with the same self victimization mindset as this, or are any of them any good?


I'm not a renter.


Sure, but you didn't deny playing the victim.

How about a link to where you proved all of this is bad game design?

☼

There's a million angry citizens looking down their tubes..at me.