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So why do people hate cloaking?

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Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#121 - 2013-07-19 17:42:13 UTC
Quote:
My solution is simple: make cloaking need liquid ozone (or similar). If that makes WH unliveable, no problem, WH systems can have an "effect" on cloaking that makes it free. It's not as if "effects" aren't already implemented for WH, is it?


Because fundamental aspects of the game totally need changed because something upsets you, right?Roll

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#122 - 2013-07-19 17:42:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Victoria Sin wrote:
Cloaking is poorly thought through, period.
True enough. Cloaking should remove you from local, for one. It's pretty silly that the hiding-module doesn't allow you to hide from anyone.

Quote:
My solution is simple: make cloaking need liquid ozone (or similar).
Solution to what? What's the problem you're trying to solve?
Victoria Sin
Doomheim
#123 - 2013-07-19 17:48:31 UTC
Tippia wrote:

Solution to what? What's the problem you're trying to solve?


It's clear you don't see it as a problem so there's no point in discussing it with you. In my region, it's a problem. Perhaps all the hot droppers who come here are from your alliance? Lol
Kijo Rikki
Killboard Padding Services
#124 - 2013-07-19 17:48:35 UTC
Victoria Sin wrote:


No, I didn't. I said that if you want to catch the hot dropper on system exit, which is what you said could be done


No, no, no dear. What I said was you can counter hot-drop them, and by that I mean be there when your prey uncloaks and lights his cyno, then you light your own cyno. Then, in mere moments, we find out who brought the better friends. For extra fun, just bring bombers. About 9 will do, have them launch as soon as they get in, then everything dies in a glorious ball of fire.

Quote:
, you need to snowball all of the gate exits, or most of them to raise the probability of catching him. And you need to do that for pretty much the whole time this AFK guy is logged in, and pay attention to your screen (you can't also be AFK). If you imagine a guy who logs in this alt just after server start and logs out just before downtime, for, say, 7 days in a row, you can imagine the game becoming somewhat dull for the snowballs. But according to you, this isn't bad game design. Having a permanent fleet guard for any one system of enough size to catch and destroy a hot-dropped gang, assuming its players were on station 23/7, just to counter this one guy who might be AFK watching family guy, is also bad game design.

Cloaking is poorly thought through, period.

My solution is simple: make cloaking need liquid ozone (or similar). If that makes WH unliveable, no problem, WH systems can have an "effect" on cloaking that makes it free. It's not as if "effects" aren't already implemented for WH, is it?


The rest of this is garbage. Standing fleets aren't filled with players sitting on their own titan or black ops or waiting around for something to happen. Everyone goes about their business. When one gets in trouble, they are usually all on voice comms and shouts OH GOD IM POINTED HELP! Then your buddies can warp directly to you and things can die in short order. That's how standing fleets work.

You make a valid point, good Sir or Madam. 
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#125 - 2013-07-19 17:49:59 UTC
Trudeaux Margaret wrote:
You're in a system in null to mine or rat or do PI or whatever. Don't you make a small network of safe spots and gate tacticals before you even get started? It only takes a few minutes.

If there's a cloaky person in system with you, just be more aware, stay aligned to a safe, keep d-scan open and hit it frequently and if said cloaky suddenly de-cloaks and appears on grid with you, then you can be warping to the safe before there's time for them to do much of anything.

Am I oversimplifying here? I actually got pwnzored by a hotdrop last night - the first time I've seen one, in fact. I was the only one in my group who didn't get away and it was because I wasn't aligned to a safe and I got caught in the edge of our interdictor bubble. I will add that there was ample time to have gotten away between the ship's decloaking and when the cyno was lit had we been miners or otherwise the type of player who had no reason at all to stick around after the ship decloaked

Sure, all of this might be a little bit of extra work ( learning how to make safe spots and gate tacticals, and then taking the time to make them for the systems you use), and then having to be extra aware and keep your d-scan window open if there's an unknown +1 in your system - I'm sure that's nerve-wracking. But am I missing anything else? Is there any other reason why you guys can't go about your business with a cloaky around?

Please tell me what I'm missing.


Because of the underline part , all the people who have a problem with cloaking saw was:

Trudeaux Margaret wrote:
scratch gable trolling garble cough scratch rable scratch
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#126 - 2013-07-19 17:53:49 UTC
Victoria Sin wrote:
It's clear you don't see it as a problem so there's no point in discussing it with you.
That makes no sense.
Since I don't see it as a problem, I'm the one you need to explain it to. If you can't articulate what the problem is, chances are pretty darn huge that there is no problem.

Quote:
Perhaps all the hot droppers who come here are from your alliance?
So… let me guess. The problem is hot-dropping?
Victoria Sin
Doomheim
#127 - 2013-07-19 17:54:04 UTC
Kijo Rikki wrote:

No, no, no dear. What I said was you can counter hot-drop them, and by that I mean be there when your prey uncloaks and lights his cyno, then you light your own cyno. Then, in mere moments, we find out who brought the better friends. For extra fun, just bring bombers. About 9 will do, have them launch as soon as they get in, then everything dies in a glorious ball of fire.


He might not light his cyno. You don't know if he's going to or not. He doesn't care. His main is busy mining Veldspar near Amarr. Your fleet has to be on station waiting for that whole time and paying attention. He only has to pay attention for those few seconds he decides to make a move. There's nothing you can do about it. It's his choice, not yours because you can't scan him down and he isn't going to run out of fuel for his cloak.

He can sit there for a month and when you start ignoring him in local and your fleet disbands, that's when he's going to drop you.

Really, it's not Rocket Science. It's poor game design.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#128 - 2013-07-19 18:02:15 UTC
Victoria Sin wrote:
He can sit there for a month and when you start ignoring him in local and your fleet disbands, that's when he's going to drop you.

Really, it's not Rocket Science. It's poor game design.
How so? He is being patient and is rewarded for it. How is that bad game design?
Trudeaux Margaret
University of Caille
#129 - 2013-07-19 18:03:33 UTC
Victoria Sin wrote:
Kijo Rikki wrote:

No, no, no dear. What I said was you can counter hot-drop them, and by that I mean be there when your prey uncloaks and lights his cyno, then you light your own cyno. Then, in mere moments, we find out who brought the better friends. For extra fun, just bring bombers. About 9 will do, have them launch as soon as they get in, then everything dies in a glorious ball of fire.


He might not light his cyno. You don't know if he's going to or not. He doesn't care. His main is busy mining Veldspar near Amarr. Your fleet has to be on station waiting for that whole time and paying attention. He only has to pay attention for those few seconds he decides to make a move. There's nothing you can do about it. It's his choice, not yours because you can't scan him down and he isn't going to run out of fuel for his cloak.

He can sit there for a month and when you start ignoring him in local and your fleet disbands, that's when he's going to drop you.

.



And if you have a network of safe spots in your system, you and everyone in your fleet is in warp to their safes the second he decloaks, which meant he wasted a month stalking you. Maybe he lit his cyno and wasted it for nothing because all his targets have scattered. You win.


This whole discussion has left me flabbergasted. Nullsec is all about risk/reward; why are you out there if you don't want to play the game at that higher level?

> anyone willing to give me like a 5 min politics crash course?

> grr goons, lowsec is full of elitist sh*s, all roads lead to the bittervet pl
Victoria Sin
Doomheim
#130 - 2013-07-19 18:04:45 UTC
Tippia wrote:
He is being patient and is rewarded for it. How is that bad game design?


Patience implies activity, not simply intentionality.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#131 - 2013-07-19 18:08:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Victoria Sin wrote:
Patience implies activity, not simply intentionality.
No. Patience implies wilful inactivity, deferring the activity until the right time comes. Waiting a month for you to drop your guard so he can strike is a textbook — even extreme — example.

So, again, how is that bad game design? What is the problem you're trying to solve?
Victoria Sin
Doomheim
#132 - 2013-07-19 18:12:01 UTC
Trudeaux Margaret wrote:

This whole discussion has left me flabbergasted.


That's because you've not experienced this, yet feel the need to have an opinion. Fine. For example, a GTFO Mackinaw

If you think that a cloaked hot-dropper can't de-cloak and point you in a few seconds faster than you can get out, you're living in high sec. A Mackinaw, for example, with GTFO fit (nanos), aligned, takes 8 seconds to get out. More than enough to decloak and point, decloak and bomb, or whatever.
Jorden Ishonen
Doomheim
#133 - 2013-07-19 18:13:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Jorden Ishonen
Victoria Sin wrote:
Tippia wrote:
He is being patient and is rewarded for it. How is that bad game design?


Patience implies activity, not simply intentionality.



No, patience just requires waiting. If I go fishing and I just set my rod in a holder, I'm not actively doing anything to make the fish bite. I'm just waiting.

As has been explained ad nauseam in this thread and others, cloaking has plenty of viable counters, such has having your own ships under cloak nearby at all times to lure them into a trap. What gets people all hot and bothered is that their usually spotless intel gathering tool is suddenly compromised.

Personally, I support the proposal that cloaking remove the cloaker from local. Suddenly the supposed problem of afk cloakers (the ability to influence the game while afk) completely vanishes! Sure, nullsec becomes less safe....but then that's what nullsec is supposed to be: no safety except that which you make for yourself. No security, null security.

In reality, afk cloakers can't affect anything while actually afk. All they can do is be a catalysyst for bad/risk-adverse decisions, and CCP can't code the game to make you play smarter.
Victoria Sin
Doomheim
#134 - 2013-07-19 18:21:41 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Victoria Sin wrote:
Patience implies activity, not simply intentionality.
No. Patience implies wilful inactivity, deferring the activity until the right time comes. Waiting a month for you to drop your guard so he can strike is a textbook — even extreme — example.


You have added nothing to this debate except arm waving; probably because you're an AFK cloaker or you like to play that game. You don't think it's a problem. Good for you. It's still bad game design. That's all.
Kijo Rikki
Killboard Padding Services
#135 - 2013-07-19 18:23:05 UTC
Victoria Sin wrote:
Kijo Rikki wrote:

No, no, no dear. What I said was you can counter hot-drop them, and by that I mean be there when your prey uncloaks and lights his cyno, then you light your own cyno. Then, in mere moments, we find out who brought the better friends. For extra fun, just bring bombers. About 9 will do, have them launch as soon as they get in, then everything dies in a glorious ball of fire.


He might not light his cyno. You don't know if he's going to or not. He doesn't care.


And neither do I, because every second he is not decloaking I am continuing to do my thing. Fitting a cyno on a utility slot and a point on the mid is not that great a sacrifice. This is the point: I am prepared to deal with him if he chooses to engage. It does not mean my game life is put on hold while I wait for him to make hte first move.

Quote:
His main is busy mining Veldspar near Amarr. Your fleet has to be on station waiting for that whole time and paying attention.


Again, standing fleets are doingtheir own thing, all you are doing is being in the same fleet and on comms. The moment someone calls for help everyone can then respond. The only time you would have someone actively waiting on a blops bus is if you are actively hunting him, which is done on some form of deductive reasoning that would tell you he is not actually afk.


Quote:
He only has to pay attention for those few seconds he decides to make a move. There's nothing you can do about it. It's his choice, not yours because you can't scan him down and he isn't going to run out of fuel for his cloak.

He can sit there for a month and when you start ignoring him in local and your fleet disbands, that's when he's going to drop you.

Really, it's not Rocket Science. It's poor game design.


How much money can you make in a month? How hard is it to see a neut/orange/red decloak and instantly warp off? How hard is it to get on comms and say 'Ship x decloaked warp to me?' How does the cloaker know your fleet is disbanded? How does he even know the size, strength and disposition of your fleet?

This is the other point, there are at least two ways you can deal with this, you can rig for escape, or you can rig to hunt. That's how I roll, of course in actuality there are a plethora of ways this can be dealth with.

You make a valid point, good Sir or Madam. 
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#136 - 2013-07-19 18:23:26 UTC
Victoria Sin wrote:
You have added nothing to this debate except
…the key question that you apparently can't answer.

How is that bad game design? What is the problem you're trying to solve?
Jorden Ishonen
Doomheim
#137 - 2013-07-19 18:28:03 UTC
Victoria Sin wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Victoria Sin wrote:
Patience implies activity, not simply intentionality.
No. Patience implies wilful inactivity, deferring the activity until the right time comes. Waiting a month for you to drop your guard so he can strike is a textbook — even extreme — example.


You have added nothing to this debate except arm waving; probably because you're an AFK cloaker or you like to play that game. You don't think it's a problem. Good for you. It's still bad game design. That's all.


So, you're admitting that Tippa's right and afk cloaking rewards patience. Then you call it bad game design? Wha?
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#138 - 2013-07-19 18:31:03 UTC
Jorden Ishonen wrote:
Victoria Sin wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Victoria Sin wrote:
Patience implies activity, not simply intentionality.
No. Patience implies wilful inactivity, deferring the activity until the right time comes. Waiting a month for you to drop your guard so he can strike is a textbook — even extreme — example.

You have added nothing to this debate except arm waving; probably because you're an AFK cloaker or you like to play that game. You don't think it's a problem. Good for you. It's still bad game design. That's all.

So, you're admitting that Tippa's right and afk cloaking rewards patience. Then you call it bad game design? Wha?

Being rewarded is pretty nice.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#139 - 2013-07-19 18:31:44 UTC
Victoria Sin wrote:
Trudeaux Margaret wrote:

This whole discussion has left me flabbergasted.


That's because you've not experienced this, yet feel the need to have an opinion. Fine. For example, a GTFO Mackinaw

If you think that a cloaked hot-dropper can't de-cloak and point you in a few seconds faster than you can get out, you're living in high sec. A Mackinaw, for example, with GTFO fit (nanos), aligned, takes 8 seconds to get out. More than enough to decloak and point, decloak and bomb, or whatever.


A GTFO Mack has stabs not nanos......
Kijo Rikki
Killboard Padding Services
#140 - 2013-07-19 18:39:13 UTC
Am I wrong in thinking an aligned , 75% speed ship of ANY type has an instant warp time from the moment of clicking warp? Because I'm pretty sure that's how it works, if you're aligned and already at 75% speed, you go. now.

You make a valid point, good Sir or Madam.