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[Odyssey 1.1] Heavy Assault Cruisers

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Author
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#781 - 2013-07-19 16:22:24 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:

If you make a cerberus go near vagabond speed. it will be completely super overpowered by orbiting larger ships with MWD signature reduciton and never missing shots.


Just for laughs, fit up a dual nano Typhoon with 6 cruise missile launchers, and then fit up a cerb and pretend it has 6 launchers too.

Now tell me again why a faster cerb is a problem.



Need I explain you basic concepts like SIGNATURE RADIUS? Specially with a 50% BONUS whitl MWD is ON?

It would be a ship almost IMMUNE to medium and large guns while able to deliver very long range or very high dps (dependign if HM or HAM being used)

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"

Travasty Space
Pilots of Epic
#782 - 2013-07-19 16:23:02 UTC
Honestly heavy missiles on Sac doesn't make much sense for the ship, maybe 5% damage+flighttime/velocity to HAMs to level would work better.
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
It Burns When I'm PvPing
#783 - 2013-07-19 16:28:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Cearain
Sergeant Acht Scultz wrote:
Noisrevbus wrote:
Sergeant Acht Scultz wrote:

You clearly haven't fought one of these yet, they can be pretty nasty but yes have to pick their fights, those are not pownmobiles just because they can fit an XL-ASB

I might be in the minority side thinking this bonus isn't bad but in certain situations will make it clearly op specially considering when lowering the ASB size the ship can fit bigger guns.


I don't think you're getting it mate, but that's my fault for using sarcasm.


  • EVE Online is a sandbox MMO.
  • It's not designed around 1v1, it's designed around PvX.
  • I don't mind if there is a duelling culture or similar in the game. It's a sandbox, any creative way to play is good.
  • However, if we start designing the game around 1v1 (or any similar targetted setting) we are in deep water.
  • What is "clearly OP" to you in a duel-setting is clearly not OP if you decide to take on more difficult odds.
  • Even if you prefer flying alone, a solo gameplay does not mean you don't fight larger groups 1vX.

This is similar to when we have to lecture PvE players on the principle that PvE in a sandbox means PvX where you are meant to conduct your PvE in a setting of both PvE and PvP (ie., PvX).

Many of the new-school PvP players are just as stupid and seclusionist as the empire PvE players they like to mock.

I've never had any issue with PvE players, I only growl a little bit when it comes to seclusionists with entitlement issues.

Entitlement issues like "the Vagabond is good for what i do with it, where i pick my consentual fights without travelling".


Don't take me wrong I do understand all the points you made but I still think options and alternatives can't hurt pvp in any shape or form be it for solo small gang or massive fights.

I have a lot more experience in large fleets fights be it as dumb F1 BS shooter as dictor as inty or anti support pilot (I have logis skills but I don't fly them I hate them all so hard you can't imagine, remove them from the game dammit !!), not good but rather nice experience in roaming gangs but absolutely terrible in 1vs1 fights and will not excuse my lack of skills in this playing area because I don't use OGB despite being able to.

Back to the point about Vaga, I still think this isn't a very bad change and fits quite well in the "emergent content" ability of Vaga, now for fleets if you ask me this bonus is absolutely terrible, horrible, does nothing and I'll take an SFI over the Vaga every time.


This guy gets it. Vaga is currently a worse cynabal. SFI is also competition. Allowing the vaga to do something else better than both of them is a good thing for this ship. The shield boost fits well with the minmatar resists. But it needs an extra mid.

If you want the old vaga fly a cynabal.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815

Vayn Baxtor
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#784 - 2013-07-19 16:28:32 UTC
Delicate subject nonetheless.

The quick stuff:

Sticking with the HEAVY Assault/Attack Cruiser part

Since we're likely to stick with how the ships are now - There needs to be a choice on certain aspects, in my opinion.
Either all HACs in general should be really tanky, resilient - OR fast and hard to catch. But not both.


About Role: 50% reduction to MWD sig bloom
I find this contradicts with the use of the AB, making AB even less desired for. Of course, this is just an impression. I really find the AB very weak in its aspects. Even with the webbing and scramming, MWD still tend wins the day. Again, just an impression.

Other than that, I think it is better to give individual special role bonuses than just "all gets this thing". I'd be more for applying rare and awkward/unusual bonuses. I don't know, capable fitting Torp launchers, lower penalties to fitting and using 100mn Afterburner modules, migation to web/slowing debuffs - stuff like that. You know, unique traits.


Commentary:


The major problem I see with HACs has always been the mentality of them needing to do everything, deal monstrous dmg and be able to escape out of the mess at any given time - just seeing that from the last pages.

I for one would rather stay out of the theorycraft and debate as I do not use HACs anymore, somewhat for the reason mentioned above - (plus who gives a damn what I do or say ;D!).

Nevertheless, I find that there is too much of a comparisons focusing on making the ships more powerful than they already are. Yes, the very point of Tiericide is to get all ships the dreaded accessibility/utility they needed. However, I can still smell cookie cutter all over this one. While cookie cutters are not a serious issue, I can see that HACs in general will continue to be ships that will be spammed to oblivion from here on.

I'm probably sidetracking, so I'll get to the point I wanted to throw in:

I think there needs to be short thoughtful rehash on the traits and weaknesses of the HAC concept. Right now, it looks too messy. *Dramatization* All ships are just getting the best stats best bonuses etc, and then are just blindly being compared to each other in fashion of "wah wah, other ship has better stuff than mine".


Imo, there should be more focus on the racial/lore philosophies.
In this case, I'd really REALLY would suggest Vaga being a bit more paper and therefore a really fast ship. I know personal impressions are not asked for, but to me it has more of a "Strike Cruiser" - now that sounds the same as HAC, but prior- to the nano/speed nerfs, it was pretty much good in driveby shootings, or like some STUKA plane. But now, most of the time I see it just being a flimsy boat frightened to get tackled. It is the pilot of course who controls the ship, but it is just due to that reason of the speed nerf etc.

Taking the Vagabond as an example for others, I'd say, make it vulnerable, therefore faster. I'd even go as far and say remove drones and make it even faster, therefore less HP.
But I know that is unlikely to happen as everybody prefer this current behemoth version.

My other bizarre suggestion would be to bring in another set of ships; one having the new Vaga model, the other the older one - so we players could choose on the playstyle we prefer. We'd have the more vulnerable-yet-swift version and the more tankier/bruiser sort. But that is unlikely to happen.


In the end, I can only repeat what somebody recently said about the Tier3 BCs; these being capable of applying extreme dmg while at the same time being way too mobile. Sure, they're paper in the sense as I'd imagine it, but regarding their extreme stacking of BS-turrets - They're way too efficient.




Using tablet, typoes are common and I'm not going to fix them all.

Warcalibre
NovaTech Holdings
#785 - 2013-07-19 16:30:08 UTC
I don't get what the HAC roles are supposed to be. Why shouldn't I just fly ABC or navy?

Looking forward to next revision!
M1k3y Koontz
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#786 - 2013-07-19 16:30:43 UTC  |  Edited by: M1k3y Koontz
Blastcaps Madullier wrote:

how about instead of 5k range bonus, +1 extra Drone controlled per level. on the heavy assault cruiser? :) the Ishtar is a drone boat after all :)


...
Are you trolling? Or do you want the Ishtar to be an OP OMGWTFPWNMOBILE doing 2000 DPS?




Edit:

Removing the drones from the Vaga and removing HP in exchange for more speed is bad and anyone proposing it should feel bad. It is already among the fastest ships in the game (bar frigates), it doesn't need more speed, it needs more buffer and grid so it can compete with the LOLOP Cynabal.

Harvey James wrote:
would anyone else like the Vagabond shield boost bonus changed to a 5% sig reduction to mwd usage?
Kind of a mini Talwar bonus really


Alternatively that would be good.

How much herp could a herp derp derp if a herp derp could herp derp.

Cearain
Plus 10 NV
It Burns When I'm PvPing
#787 - 2013-07-19 16:33:00 UTC
Warcalibre wrote:
I don't get what the HAC roles are supposed to be. Why shouldn't I just fly ABC or navy?

Looking forward to next revision!


I'm not sure what the role is either.

But it seems the role is very limitted and exactly same for every ship.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815

DeadDuck
Hostile.
PURPLE HELMETED WARRIORS
#788 - 2013-07-19 16:33:49 UTC
Travasty Space wrote:
Honestly heavy missiles on Sac doesn't make much sense for the ship, maybe 5% damage+flighttime/velocity to HAMs to level would work better.


Actually it does... the sacrilege screems for damage range since it's slow. It was alright before the HAM pre nerf in wich could hit at 75KM with Javelin Missiles, but now Javelins hit at 30Km max in theory. With a 5% flight/velocity would hit at 37,5Km. wich is a laugh.
DeadDuck
Hostile.
PURPLE HELMETED WARRIORS
#789 - 2013-07-19 16:35:50 UTC
DeadDuck wrote:
Travasty Space wrote:
Honestly heavy missiles on Sac doesn't make much sense for the ship, maybe 5% damage+flighttime/velocity to HAMs to level would work better.


Actually it does... the sacrilege screems for damage range since it's slow. It was alright before the HAM pre nerf in wich could hit at 75KM with Javelin Missiles, but now Javelins hit at 30Km max in theory. With a 5% flight/velocity would hit at 37,5Km. wich is a laugh.


If people want to trade the range for damage they can do it but give the sacrilege the hability to at least hit at medium range with a slight chance of actually kill anyhting
Sergeant Acht Scultz
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#790 - 2013-07-19 16:38:45 UTC
Noisrevbus wrote:
Others have said it, you say it yourself: It does not. It's supposed to provide an alternative to what the Cyna, SFI and other ships do better. Yet even the Cyna and SFI are in dire positions overall.



Indeed and afterthought maybe a tracking bonus would be much better for this ship and useful in every pvp situations:

The 10% tracking bonus on the SFI is absolutely fantastic, alpha with arties is good for a cruiser, dps with autos and tank is also pretty good imho and puts this ship on the right spot.

Now to make our Vaga a bit more interesting this tracking bonus would probably be the best bonus choice over the shield boost one and at the same time offer a larger window of pvp possibilities.

removed inappropriate ASCII art signature - CCP Eterne

Maximus Andendare
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
#791 - 2013-07-19 16:39:48 UTC
Travasty Space wrote:
Honestly heavy missiles on Sac doesn't make much sense for the ship, maybe 5% damage+flighttime/velocity to HAMs to level would work better.
The Sac should have its 5th turret removed, move that high to a low (5/4/6) layout, 10%/lvl damage (vs. 5%) and the capacitor bonus to a HAM flight time, explosion velocity, or similar damage application bonus. Nobody is going to use a heavy armor ship for HMLs and kiting, though. Please realize that heavy armor is not really compatible with the "kiting" philosophy of agility and speed, and especially not an Amarr heavy armor ship (Gallente are somewhat compensated with higher agility and speed that they strip away when fitting armor).

Same for the Deimos. Definitely give it an additional low (or keep the utility high) and change the MWD bonus (which, again, gets wasted if you fit an AB (must be the theme of Gallente bonuses to go wasted)) to a tracking or optimal bonus (something with damage application), and give it a purpose. I'm not sure if you realize, but there aren't many Gallente pilots screaming for a rail-leaning kiting platform. Yes, it is going to be AWESOME to have to the choice to use rails and them not suck, but we know when we fly big green that we are committing to the fight when we close in to use our blasters: either they die or we do. And I guess if we're on the subject anyway, the Thorax will do a much better job at kiting with its higher agility and speed combined with its tracking bonus, making those rails that-much-better.

Besides, there's much better ships that kite out there, and I certainly wouldn't pick a Deimos (with its poor tank (now with more nerf!), big sig and slow speed) over a Zealot, Vaga, Cynabal, or similar (and that's not even talking about the ABCs that are great kiters as well).

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XXSketchxx
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
#792 - 2013-07-19 16:44:28 UTC
Marlona Sky wrote:
I still think a fleet of aBC will dumpster the **** out of a fleet of the current and even newly proposed HACs. For a fraction of the cost too.

CCP Rise - If the MWD bloob sig role bonus is necessary enough to warrent then perhaps you should just reduce the sig of the HACs base down from the start. Then you can look into giving each HAC unique role bonuses that can open the door to make them not just 'better' T1 cruisers, but good at doing 'something'. Something that an aBC can't do and a T1 cruiser can't do.


This. Remove the mwd bonus, reduce sig of each HAC by 25%, then add specific role bonuses for each one.
Marlona Sky
State War Academy
Caldari State
#793 - 2013-07-19 16:46:27 UTC
"If I'm supposed to be a close range brawler, why do I have a bonus for a long range weapon?" - Sacrilege
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#794 - 2013-07-19 16:46:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Harvey James
I think the major problem here is that all the HACS are treated differently to each other rather than a unified approach..

Vaga - is clearly 20km skirmish kitey ship and very fast but ls slower than the stabber and cynabal despite its description claiming it is the fastest cruiser

Eagle - is slow as hell sniper yet is also a brawler apparently .. ishtar, muninn and zealot are very similar but more speed

Deimos- is what exactly? brawler ot railboat? shield or armour?

Cerberus - a 200km missile sniper .... this is good how? .. a HAM slower but tankier and more dps heavy version of caracal would work nicely here

Sacrilege - is a brawler it seems but lacks enough lows to tank properly and is slow

So these are all very different to each other .. which is why people are asking what is the role of a HAC because looking at these they are all a bit random ..

I think people would prefer a more vaga approach than a sacrilege approach as brawling is very risky too put a 200mil ship into a fight when its likely to be outclassed in tank and dps by any bc for a fraction of the cost.

Also with the upcoming CS buff and navy bc's costing a similar amount but with battleship like tank and more dps why would you want a brawling HAC?

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using

M1k3y Koontz
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#795 - 2013-07-19 16:47:19 UTC
XXSketchxx wrote:
Marlona Sky wrote:
I still think a fleet of aBC will dumpster the **** out of a fleet of the current and even newly proposed HACs. For a fraction of the cost too.

CCP Rise - If the MWD bloob sig role bonus is necessary enough to warrent then perhaps you should just reduce the sig of the HACs base down from the start. Then you can look into giving each HAC unique role bonuses that can open the door to make them not just 'better' T1 cruisers, but good at doing 'something'. Something that an aBC can't do and a T1 cruiser can't do.


This. Remove the mwd bonus, reduce sig of each HAC by 25%, then add specific role bonuses for each one.


Yes.

One brawler one sniper for each race:
50% range bonus for the snipers,
50% damage bonus for the brawlers?

How much herp could a herp derp derp if a herp derp could herp derp.

Marlona Sky
State War Academy
Caldari State
#796 - 2013-07-19 16:50:08 UTC
"If I'm supposed to be a rail gun kitting ship, why would someone fly me instead of the Eagle?" - Deimos
Marlona Sky
State War Academy
Caldari State
#797 - 2013-07-19 16:52:19 UTC
"If I'm supposed to be a drone specialized ship, why don't I have CPU for drone upgrade modules?" - Ishtar
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#798 - 2013-07-19 16:57:07 UTC
Marlona Sky wrote:
"If I'm supposed to be a rail gun kitting ship, why would someone fly me instead of the Eagle?" - Deimos



Well Deimos is a BLASTER boat :P

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"

Maximus Andendare
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
#799 - 2013-07-19 16:57:17 UTC
Marlona Sky wrote:
"If I'm supposed to be a close range brawler, why do I have a bonus for a long range weapon?" - Sacrilege
It seems CCP is on this trend to give every race every possible playstyle in some fashion. I guess they wanted to be all-inclusive for the noobs that picked Amarr and are "stuck" with a Sacrilege. So what do you do to win that player over and not have them filled with weeks of regret and remorse for their racial ship line choice? Include the ability to use HMLs. Granted, Amarr ships are all about high agility, quick speed, light tank and long range and kiting, so it makes complete sense. For example, when I fly--and I want the fastest kiting ship--I totally think "AMARR!!!" ;)

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Mr Floydy
Questionable Ethics.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#800 - 2013-07-19 16:57:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Mr Floydy
Disagree with anyone saying the Sacrilege shouldn't get the HML bonus. Why on earth not? Yes it is a slow ship that is better suited to HAM, but why should that mean it must be locked down to a single weapon type. Every other ship bonus can apply to both long and short range weapons of the class. A missile spewing, smallish sig, tanky armour ship able to fly at range could potentially be a nice ship to have. Who cares if it is slow - it's not like the Drake was ever bought for it's speed!

I'd like CCP to consider some other more unique role bonuses to make these more interesting. Also more interesting bonuses - I like the faction ships with the bonuses that are larger than 5-10%, just makes them a bit more interesting. Few random ideas without much thought into them... (probably all flawed ideas, but they stand out a bit)
-Resistance to webs?
-Role bonus that gave double damage but half rate of fire for better ammo/cap usage.
-Afterburner speed bonus
-Sig reduction on weaponry fitted?
-Role Bonus - not affected by negative effects from Armourplates/shield extenders and rigs?

Think outside the box! :)