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[Odyssey 1.1] Heavy Assault Cruisers

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Smoking Blunts
ZC Omega
#661 - 2013-07-19 09:14:12 UTC
Grath Telkin wrote:
Ersahi Kir wrote:
I honestly think the new cerb is pretty good for the people that do caracal and tengu fleets. The increased range on heavy assault missiles (68 km javs, 45 km normal) and the same damage as a 5 launcher tengu may make this ship a competitor as a doctrine ship. I scratched out a quick fit today, and if I didn't mess my math up I figured that it can go all tech II as a HAM/AB fit except for 2x meta 4 LSE's.

It all depends on if that extra ~22km on jav heavy assault missiles is worth it.


Just so you understand what you're suggesting, an AB HAM Cerb and an AB HAM Caracal are separated by 3 m/s, 19khp, and a little under 200 dps.

For that staggering increase in power (<-this is sarcasm) you pay 15x the cost of the Caracal.


Oh, and for 200 million more and less training time, you could just buy a Tengu which outclasses the Cerb in EVERY SINGLE WAY.






its ok the tech3 balance will soon screw the tengu over anyhow

OMG when can i get a pic here
raawe
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#662 - 2013-07-19 09:24:58 UTC
Give sacra another low, replace cap recharge bonus with armor rep bonus or 5% damage to all missiles per lvl?
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#663 - 2013-07-19 09:25:19 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
....ZEALOT - Zealot is arguably the most functional currently of the entire group and so it gets the least change....

In AHAC blobs only, since when did CCP adopt blobby gameplay as the baseline for balancing? .. just askin' Smile

Take a Zealot out solo or in small numbers without access to unlimited reps and links out the wazoo and it is suddenly so far below par that one is better off using something, anything, else.
- Give it 25m3 drones and be done with it .. either that or tweak it so it can have a 4th mid or tracking bonus. The reason for the above is its complete lack of fight control making the paper its DPS is written on soggy like used diapers.

Sacrilege looks good .. until one sees the Cerberus ... hahahahaha. That thing will be broken beyond belief, doubly so when you get around to sorting eWar and TP's get their renaissance. Fifty kilometer HAM spam with super speed missiles doing in excess of 500 dps (TP's, remember?), now add the capless ASB .. what could possibly go wrong .. Smile
- Increase Sacrilege damage bonus to 7.5% or go Khanid on its ass with a base cap boost and replacing recharge with neut/not amount Smile

Rest are about the same, better due to laxer fittings and improved medium guns .. Muninn will be tasty as either Arty sniper or Auto slugger which is good.
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#664 - 2013-07-19 09:29:29 UTC
Veshta Yoshida wrote:
CCP Rise wrote:
....ZEALOT - Zealot is arguably the most functional currently of the entire group and so it gets the least change....

In AHAC blobs only, since when did CCP adopt blobby gameplay as the baseline for balancing? .. just askin' Smile

Take a Zealot out solo or in small numbers without access to unlimited reps and links out the wazoo and it is suddenly so far below par that one is better off using something, anything, else.
- Give it 25m3 drones and be done with it .. either that or tweak it so it can have a 4th mid or tracking bonus. The reason for the above is its complete lack of fight control making the paper its DPS is written on soggy like used diapers.

Sacrilege looks good .. until one sees the Cerberus ... hahahahaha. That thing will be broken beyond belief, doubly so when you get around to sorting eWar and TP's get their renaissance. Fifty kilometer HAM spam with super speed missiles doing in excess of 500 dps (TP's, remember?), now add the capless ASB .. what could possibly go wrong .. Smile
- Increase Sacrilege damage bonus to 7.5% or go Khanid on its ass with a base cap boost and replacing recharge with neut/not amount Smile

Rest are about the same, better due to laxer fittings and improved medium guns .. Muninn will be tasty as either Arty sniper or Auto slugger which is good.



Don't forget that the (beam) zealot just got a 20% DPS buff.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Mr Doctor
Therapy.
Brave Collective
#665 - 2013-07-19 09:35:02 UTC
raawe wrote:
Give sacra another low, replace cap recharge bonus with armor rep bonus or 5% damage to all missiles per lvl?
Even just to EM missiles.
raawe
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#666 - 2013-07-19 09:36:34 UTC
Mr Doctor wrote:
raawe wrote:
Give sacra another low, replace cap recharge bonus with armor rep bonus or 5% damage to all missiles per lvl?
Even just to EM missiles.


Caldari usually got 10% bonus to only kinetic, legion has 5% to all damage types, as for sacra even 2-3% damage per level would be good
Ganthrithor
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#667 - 2013-07-19 09:39:38 UTC
Malcanis wrote:

Don't forget that the (beam) zealot just got a 20% DPS buff.


Oh good, I'm glad we've upgraded from "causes a slight tickling sensation in the fingertips" to "mild discomfort" levels of damage. You CSM guys are real heroes, convincing CCP to give us these massive buffs.
Anthar Thebess
#668 - 2013-07-19 09:42:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Anthar Thebess
When you going to adjust phantasm?
TBH this ship have grate hull - but it is useless.

Phantasm

I know that this never happen Sad - but allowing this ship to fit covert ops cloaking device would be grate - you could make your own incursion :)
Or better - bonus to speed in cloack like BO , and give it a 3LY jump range and fuel bay.

Player made incursions here we come!

Sad

Stop discrimination, help in a fight against terrorists

Show your support to The Cause!
Crysantos Callahan
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#669 - 2013-07-19 09:43:22 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
Veshta Yoshida wrote:
[quote=CCP Rise].......



Don't forget that the (beam) zealot just got a 20% DPS buff.


Wow, which will make the Beamalot... still bad. Pulses just work way better, I can't imagine to see either a beamalot gang or even a solo zealot with that. Another mid slot, a drone bay, etc. would work way better for it (or what it should do) - every other hac will work way better on range than the zealot.

And I still vote for an ab bonus ;)
Altrue
Exploration Frontier inc
Tactical-Retreat
#670 - 2013-07-19 09:44:32 UTC
290 m/s for the vagabond while kiting cerberus (for instance, but every other is also around 200) has 205, so almost 50% less ? Lol

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Ultimate Citadel Guide - 2016 EVE Career Chart
Naomi Knight
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#671 - 2013-07-19 09:44:56 UTC
Crysantos Callahan wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
Veshta Yoshida wrote:
[quote=CCP Rise].......



Don't forget that the (beam) zealot just got a 20% DPS buff.


Wow, which will make the Beamalot... still bad. Pulses just work way better, I can't imagine to see either a beamalot gang or even a solo zealot with that. Another mid slot, a drone bay, etc. would work way better for it (or what it should do) - every other hac will work way better on range than the zealot.

And I still vote for an ab bonus ;)

just remove role bonus
and give them +1 mid or low slots + some fitting
AspiB'elt
Les chevaliers de l'ordre
Goonswarm Federation
#672 - 2013-07-19 09:47:51 UTC
Quote:

SACRILEGE - Highlights here would be the increased drone bay, increased PG, and the addition of HML to the Cruiser damage bonus. Hopefully the result is a ship that can more comfortably fulfill its heavy tackle/utility HAC role without sacrificing quite as much as it used to when compared to combat BCs or other HACs. We concede that the cap recharge bonus is a bit strange, but feel the ship actually doesn't need another standard bonus like damage application or range to make it work.

Role Bonus: 50% reduction in MicroWarpdrive signature radius penalty

Amarr Cruiser Bonuses:
5% to Heavy Assault and Heavy Missile damage (added heavy missiles)
4% to all Armor Resistances

Heavy Assault Cruiser Bonuses:
5% reduction of capacitor recharge time
5% bonus to Missile Launcher rate of fire

Slot layout: 6H, 4M, 5L; 1 turrets(-3), 5 launchers
Fittings: 1150 PWG(+120), 400 CPU
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 1400(+7) / 2100(+12) / 1690(+2)
Capacitor (amount) : 1650(+25)
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 200(+2) / .567 / 11750000(-540000) / 9.24s(-.4)
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 50(+35) / 50(+35)
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 55km / 312 / 7
Sensor strength: 15 Radar
Signature radius: 140


look interesting but, why to keep the 5% reduction of capacitor recharge time bonus.

Perhaps change this bonus to something more interesting, if you would like to make this ship in close range. Had some bonus on the neutralizer (last high slot).
Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#673 - 2013-07-19 09:49:36 UTC
Is odyssey 1.1 a special exception CCP Rise, or can we expect to see a round 2 of all your future balance threads?

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
raawe
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#674 - 2013-07-19 09:52:57 UTC  |  Edited by: raawe
now it can barely fit small neut, adding bonus to it means you will need to lose some tank/damage to make room for medium one. I still vote for missile damage or rep bonus, but something still needs to be changed. Drones are nice addition but will not make this ship any better then it's now (sacra)
Unforgiven Storm
Eternity INC.
Goonswarm Federation
#675 - 2013-07-19 09:58:52 UTC
Instead of repeating what most have said so far, crying or screaming at you CCP Rise, I will leave this here for you to think about:

Quote:
If at first you don't succeed, try, try again.

― W.C. Fields




Unforgiven Storm for CSM 9, 10, 11, 12 and 13. (If I don't get in in the next 5 years I will quit trying) :-)
Magic Crisp
Amarrian Micro Devices
#676 - 2013-07-19 10:23:23 UTC
VAGABOND - Like with the Stabber, we are rolling the max velocity bonus into the base stats, and then replacing it with a shield boost bonus.

You know that this one is a blanked change, because you have absolutely no idea what to do with that bonus-slot? The vagabond never ever been an actively tanked ship, and giving it an active tank bonus is just terribad. Please check out actually what that ship is good for, what are its usecases, and find an actually useful bonus. This shield boost is just horrible.
Robotic Lincoln
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#677 - 2013-07-19 10:26:15 UTC
Please reconsider the shield boost bonus to the vagabond. Unlike many of the HACs, the vagabond had a niche already, but it was squeezed out of it by better ships. A bonus which allows it to become competitive again in its old role - tracking would be lovely - would be vastly better than something which (poorly) nudges it into a new role. More generally, Minmatar and Gallente pilots are developing Active Tanking Fatigue; it's more fun to choose from the range of tanking options than to have your ship's bonuses make the decision for you. I understand the argument for SOME ships having these bonuses. But for pity's sake, please not the vagabond.

You guys have done a great job with the balancing project overall, but iconic ships should remain what they are.
raawe
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#678 - 2013-07-19 10:27:04 UTC
Magic Crisp wrote:
VAGABOND - Like with the Stabber, we are rolling the max velocity bonus into the base stats, and then replacing it with a shield boost bonus.

You know that this one is a blanked change, because you have absolutely no idea what to do with that bonus-slot? The vagabond never ever been an actively tanked ship, and giving it an active tank bonus is just terribad. Please check out actually what that ship is good for, what are its usecases, and find an actually useful bonus. This shield boost is just horrible.


Shield resistance would make more sense 4% bonus per level or even tracking bonus.
Bilaz
Duck and Finch
#679 - 2013-07-19 10:27:04 UTC
SACRILEGE does not benefit from large dronebay. drones are shiity damage system - too slow and unreliable unless using ecm. I think that 25 band with 50 dronebay would be super both for solo and for gang.
BUT what it lacks is speed and more importanly - agility. how on earth an armor hac can be heavy tackler when it has no speed no agility and most likely would have plate and/or armor rigs?

Ok maybe i'm asking too much - dont make it as fast as other hacs but why not make it super-agile (compared to its super-slow state). Think of it as an alligator that can jump out of river and drag unsuspecting vagabong to the bottom of despair with its web, scram and hams, but unable to do harm if that jump failed and its a running contest. wouldnt that be interesting - something that such ship could be famous for? becouse now its much more boring than that when kiting armor-tanked folks.

As for heavy missile bonus - they are suboptimal now, so two-three years ago it would have been nice, now its "meh".

And how about third rig slot - t3 have it why not t2 (esp. since t1 got boost) Big smile ?
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#680 - 2013-07-19 10:27:50 UTC
Sorry if has been discussed. But I am at work and cannot read 33 pages.

FIrst, glad we are finally here .

Second.

Vagabond changes feel awkward. Shield boost with 4 mids feels too forced. Since the ship cannot fit a cap injector its basically forcing the ship into an ASB. And that raises HUGE CPU issues.


Anyway a shipo with a Shield boost bonus should NOT be 4 mids. That goes along with the effects of TE nerf last patch, now having lots of low slots is not so much useful for vaga.

Please consider +1 Mid -1 Low. Would make the vaga a more concise ship and help it to be the Fast brawler while keeping the speeding nuts role to the Cynabal.


IF I had made this rebalance I would have moved the falloff bonus to the CRUISER skill bonus. And the HAC skill woudl be something like 4% signature per level.






The others feel less awkward , and some even great like cerberus and deimos.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"