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[Odyssey 1.1] Heavy Assault Cruisers

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glepp
New Caldari Bureau of Investigation
#521 - 2013-07-18 21:38:53 UTC  |  Edited by: glepp
I love the new mid on the Deimos, but is it really supposed to be slower with less applied dps than a Thorax (because of no tracking bonus)? And a little tiny bit extra CPU so you can fit an extra ewar mod in the mid would go a long way. Dropping the small nos or neut in the utility high means you're down about 5-6 cpu to fit anything useful on a standard armor Deimos.

And what's with the HP nerf? These things are marginally flimsy enough already.
Maximus Andendare
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
#522 - 2013-07-18 21:43:24 UTC
XvXTeacherVxV wrote:
Maximus Andendare wrote:
XvXTeacherVxV wrote:
I don't think anyone suggested an either/or weapon system for the Muninn. Again, that directly contradicts the specialized nature of the Muninn. I think you're arguing with thin air, if that's what you're arguing against.

Would love to see some of your Muninn killmails, Maximus Andendare, otherwise I think you're EFT-warrioring instead of telling us about your actual experiences with the ship.

I'd still rather have a Hurricane any day of the week.
My argument is that you seemed to wanted to switch the Muninn to a missile boat. I countered that there is racial flavor in having both Minmatar HACs be projectile boats, but if one was to go missile, it could do so using an either/or weapon system, though that in itself would cause problems due to the 4x damage bonuses. This would likely not happen, since ScyFI, (rebalanced) Claymore and (rebalanced) Huginn will likely be effective as Minmatar missile boats, solving the "where's my Minmatar missile boat?" question. Sorry for the confusion. I wasn't advocating in making the Muninn a missile boat, though, for the record.


The cyclone, talwar, breacher, bellicose and typhoon (not to mention the hound) are now all dedicated missile boats without split weapon systems. I think the Minmatar missile flavor has changed drastically in the past few updates so I'd vehemently disagree than any Minmatar missile boat has to be an either/or system (that is false on the face of it).

So.... where' my Minmatar missile HAC?
It's likely going to come in the form of the rebalanced Huginn, rebalanced Cyclone and Scythe Fleet Issue when fitted with missiles.

And you're still mistaking the either/or argument. The either/or is because it's extremely unlikely to see the Muninn changed to be a dedicated missile boat. It'll keep its long range projectile niche, and so in order to accommodate a long-range arty Muninn AND make it a missile boat, it'd have to go to an either/or missile boat. But I agree this isn't likely nor is it likely it would lose its long-range projectile niche.

Instead, it's far more likely that the Huginn and Claymore will fill the missile boat role for Minmatar T2 and it's likely the Loki sub that is currently dual damage will go to strictly missile when T3s have their pass through the wringer.

P.S. If you note in your list above, there is no "traditional" Minny missile cruiser, since the Bellicose is technically a disruption cruiser. It's similar to how Amarr's only drone boat is technically a disruption cruiser as well, despite them having a drone destroyer, BC and laserboat-turned-drone BS.

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Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#523 - 2013-07-18 21:49:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Ranger 1
Zloco Crendraven wrote:
Smoking Blunts wrote:
Sacrilege changes are not enough, it is still bad. do something else with it or it will now have replaced the eagle as the worst hac

rest are decent changes though


Yeah Sacrileges are really bad. Need some buff more. Ditch the capacity bonus and give it explosion radius or velocity one.

That would be good, although to be honest I can think of some handy uses for that capacitor recharge rate.

It also got a nice boost going from 3 lights to 5 medium drones.

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Orakkus
ImperiaI Federation
Goonswarm Federation
#524 - 2013-07-18 21:55:37 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:

MUNINN - The Muninn will lose one of its highs and gain a low, which should fit its role as a long range platform extremely well. It also gains a little speed.

Role Bonus: 50% reduction in MicroWarpdrive signature radius penalty

Minmatar Cruiser Bonuses:
5% bonus to Medium Projectile Turret rate of fire
5% bonus to Medium Projectile Turret damage

Heavy Assault Cruiser Bonuses:
10% bonus to Medium Projectile Turret optimal range
7.5% bonus to Medium Projectile Turret tracking speed

Slot layout: 6H(-1), 3M, 6L(+1); 5 turrets, 1 launchers(-2)
Fittings: 1160 PWG, 355 CPU
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 1580(-2) / 2000(-4) / 1400(-6)
Capacitor (amount) : 1250
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 210(+14) / .571 / 11750000 / 9.3s
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 25 / 25
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 55km / 294 / 6(+1)
Sensor strength: 14 Ladar(+1)
Signature radius: 130


I do have one question regarding the Muninn. Since the armor is considerably heavier than shield, and for a shield tanker having just three mid slots is.. pretty weak, is there any chance that the Muninn will get Tech 2 resists reflected on their armor resist stats instead of shield resists?

He's not just famous, he's "IN" famous. - Ned Nederlander
Danny John-Peter
The Congregation
RAPID HEAVY ROPERS
#525 - 2013-07-18 21:59:50 UTC
My initial impressions are positive-ish with this, the Deimos tank nerf was pretty derp and unwaranted I'm still formulated opinions on Eagles and Cerbs but so far good thoughts overall.

However;

Dat Vaga;

A shield boost bonus on a ship with four mids, terrible base buffer, poor fitting and terrible cap.

What were you possibly thinking with that, its genuinely one of the most stupid decisions I have seen in a balance pass, not only will it be largely pointless for anything other than lolnicheXLASB Vagas (And no, just because you flew them Kill2 doesnt mean they are the norm, or better than a normal vaga in most cases) it doesn't fix the actual issues with the hull which are it has Anemic DPS generally, but particularly out to range despite its range bonus.

It also doesnt fix the fact that the Cyna is still better in every way, even if you wanted to XLASB it the Vaga is worse, just use that spare mid on the Cyna for an SBA and magically you have a better hull, again.
XvXTeacherVxV
Be Nice Inc.
Prismatic Legion
#526 - 2013-07-18 22:01:44 UTC
Maximus Andendare wrote:
If you note in your list above, there is no "traditional" Minny missile cruiser, since the Bellicose is technically a disruption cruiser. It's similar to how Amarr's only drone boat is technically a disruption cruiser as well, despite them having a drone destroyer, BC and laserboat-turned-drone BS.


There's no "traditional" Amarr missile cruiser, and yet they have a Missile HAC. Thoughts?

Maximus Andendare wrote:
it's extremely unlikely to see the Muninn changed to be a dedicated missile boat. It'll keep its long range projectile niche, and so in order to accommodate a long-range arty Muninn AND make it a missile boat, it'd have to go to an either/or missile boat.


Why? Because you just say so or because you don't think CCP knows how to change their minds? See industrial rebalance thread. In fact, see every EVE rebalance thread ever. You are simply guessing and the fact that you're suggesting it would have to be an either/or system before a dedicated missile system is based on what exactly? Precedent? The precedent is in the middle of being totally revamped in case you didn't notice.
Can you see the rapier?: http://imgur.com/aFelCpv,GH6lqDE
Dirk Morbho
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#527 - 2013-07-18 22:04:34 UTC
Chop F*****ing Chop.

Give us 1.1 already Lol
theelusiveyoda
Death Troopers
PURPLE HELMETED WARRIORS
#528 - 2013-07-18 22:12:19 UTC
yes, yes, yes, a million times yes!
Sarkelias Anophius
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#529 - 2013-07-18 22:12:27 UTC
Danny John-Peter wrote:
My initial impressions are positive-ish with this, the Deimos tank nerf was pretty derp and unwaranted I'm still formulated opinions on Eagles and Cerbs but so far good thoughts overall.

However;

Dat Vaga;

A shield boost bonus on a ship with four mids, terrible base buffer, poor fitting and terrible cap.

What were you possibly thinking with that, its genuinely one of the most stupid decisions I have seen in a balance pass, not only will it be largely pointless for anything other than lolnicheXLASB Vagas (And no, just because you flew them Kill2 doesnt mean they are the norm, or better than a normal vaga in most cases) it doesn't fix the actual issues with the hull which are it has Anemic DPS generally, but particularly out to range despite its range bonus.

It also doesnt fix the fact that the Cyna is still better in every way, even if you wanted to XLASB it the Vaga is worse, just use that spare mid on the Cyna for an SBA and magically you have a better hull, again.




I'm pretty sure the point is that the Vaga is buffed by the sig bonus, retains its former capabilities, and can now mount a fierce ASB tank to help with solo work. It lost nothing and gained some neat stuff.

I'm not sure I agree that Cinnabons are better in every way. I personally prefer the Vaga's pricetag.
Danny John-Peter
The Congregation
RAPID HEAVY ROPERS
#530 - 2013-07-18 22:17:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Danny John-Peter
Sarkelias Anophius wrote:
Danny John-Peter wrote:
My initial impressions are positive-ish with this, the Deimos tank nerf was pretty derp and unwaranted I'm still formulated opinions on Eagles and Cerbs but so far good thoughts overall.

However;

Dat Vaga;

A shield boost bonus on a ship with four mids, terrible base buffer, poor fitting and terrible cap.

What were you possibly thinking with that, its genuinely one of the most stupid decisions I have seen in a balance pass, not only will it be largely pointless for anything other than lolnicheXLASB Vagas (And no, just because you flew them Kill2 doesnt mean they are the norm, or better than a normal vaga in most cases) it doesn't fix the actual issues with the hull which are it has Anemic DPS generally, but particularly out to range despite its range bonus.

It also doesnt fix the fact that the Cyna is still better in every way, even if you wanted to XLASB it the Vaga is worse, just use that spare mid on the Cyna for an SBA and magically you have a better hull, again.




I'm pretty sure the point is that the Vaga is buffed by the sig bonus, retains its former capabilities, and can now mount a fierce ASB tank to help with solo work. It lost nothing and gained some neat stuff.

I'm not sure I agree that Cinnabons are better in every way. I personally prefer the Vaga's pricetag.


Price cannot be used as a balancing factor, yes the sig bonus helps but being able to avoid damage and tanking was never its issue, its DPS and projection were, which are not being resolved.

It also cant fit an XLASB and still mount a decent ranged kiting fit, so I dont really see the bonus having any point at all beyond lolscramXLASB vagas.

Edit; that seems to fit into the general trend towards making all PVP sub ABC being Approach>Heat>Scram/Web>Hope your numbers are better.
sten mattson
Red Sky Morning
The Amarr Militia.
#531 - 2013-07-18 22:29:00 UTC
The zealot needs either another high/mid or at least a flight of light drones plz.

You did that for the stabber so why not now ? :D

IMMA FIRING MA LAZAR!!!
Voith
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#532 - 2013-07-18 22:32:28 UTC
sten mattson wrote:
The zealot needs either another high/mid or at least a flight of light drones plz.

You did that for the stabber so why not now ? :D

Are you really asking why Winmatar and Amarr aren't treated the same?
Grath Telkin
Amok.
Goonswarm Federation
#533 - 2013-07-18 22:32:59 UTC
Danny John-Peter wrote:


Price cannot be used as a balancing factor, yes the sig bonus helps but being able to avoid damage and tanking was never its issue, its DPS and projection were, which are not being resolved.


Normally I agree with you 100%, but if they dont take price into consideration now then the HAC's will stay where they are on the dusty shelf of non use because they will still be outclassed or matched by several options that are significantly cheaper, so in this case talking about price is actually a thing that needs to happen.

The Goal: Make HACs viable in EVE again.

The Result with these changes: t1 cruisers, bcs, and ABC's (tier 3 bcs) still do all the jobs they do at a lower cost so they wont be used, just like now.


Lower the hull cost in most cases by 100-150% (to between 50-80 million, somewhere in that ball park) and you'll see competition in ship usage between t1 cruisers, regular Bc's, tier 3 bc's, and hacs. Leave them as is price wise, and nothing will change in the current ship META because these changes do nothing to promote any change from the 'what is good'.

Malcanis - Without drone assign, the slowcat doctrine will wither and die.
MeBiatch
GRR GOONS
#534 - 2013-07-18 22:33:44 UTC
Grath Telkin wrote:
Ranger 1 wrote:
M1k3y Koontz wrote:
Grath Telkin wrote:
Marlona Sky wrote:
What are the reasons to choose one of these new HACs over an aBC?


You have too much money and or you dont like flying ships that don't suck


Ships that don't suck? Have you SEEN the T1 cruisers? They are far superior to HACs when cost is considered. In some cases they are simply better than their T2 variants, cost be damned.

Apparently the applied damage with the buffed medium weapons will be superior to the applied damage from an ABC's large guns vs medium/small targets


Idk who thought this would happen but thats not whats going to happen.


You bring in a t2 hac snip fleet adn the other guy brings in a t3 ABC snipe fleet and you trade shots, at the end of the day your t2 dead hac fleet is worth 5 times the same amount of dead t3 ABCs, and the result will be the same as now: people will simply fly t3 ABCs because you're GOING to die eventually.

I understand that price can't be the sole balancing factor but if CCP can't admit that in some cases players will always take price into account then the balancing they're doing on t2 ships is simply a waste of time.


indeed if angular velocity = 0 then tracking/sig resolution are moot.

There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... CCP Goliath wrote:

Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.
Violet Winters
I HAVE THE POWER OF GOD AND ANIME ON MY SIDE
Blue Eyes and Exodia Toon Duelist Kingdom Duelers
#535 - 2013-07-18 22:40:11 UTC
Deimos is the only ship I like in this whole set of "buffs".

The vaga is just a ship Korovix and fanboys can fly around with, instead you should of given a better bonus supporting it's role of being a terrible cynabal. Obviously now it's just a "bringing solo back" waste of a hull.

Overall: Meh.

CEO - Anglic Eclipse.
Danny John-Peter
The Congregation
RAPID HEAVY ROPERS
#536 - 2013-07-18 22:40:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Danny John-Peter
MeBiatch wrote:
SNIP

indeed if angular velocity = 0 then tracking/sig resolution are moot.


Well, your right.

But for the wrong reasons.

In larger scale engagements every "sniper" composition is heavily comped with Huginns, so tracking and applied damage are less of an issue, sheer DPS is usually the deciding factor, and in that the ABCs still have an advantage.
Drunken Bum
#537 - 2013-07-18 22:44:07 UTC
Danny John-Peter wrote:
My initial impressions are positive-ish with this, the Deimos tank nerf was pretty derp and unwaranted I'm still formulated opinions on Eagles and Cerbs but so far good thoughts overall.

However;

Dat Vaga;

A shield boost bonus on a ship with four mids, terrible base buffer, poor fitting and terrible cap.

What were you possibly thinking with that, its genuinely one of the most stupid decisions I have seen in a balance pass, not only will it be largely pointless for anything other than lolnicheXLASB Vagas (And no, just because you flew them Kill2 doesnt mean they are the norm, or better than a normal vaga in most cases) it doesn't fix the actual issues with the hull which are it has Anemic DPS generally, but particularly out to range despite its range bonus.

It also doesnt fix the fact that the Cyna is still better in every way, even if you wanted to XLASB it the Vaga is worse, just use that spare mid on the Cyna for an SBA and magically you have a better hull, again.


Agreed. It'll still get flown simply because the muninn is so terrible, but really, I agree completely.

After the patch we're giving the market some gentle supply restriction, like tying one wrist to the bedpost loosely with soft silk rope. Just enough to make things a bit more exciting for the market, not enough to make a safeword necessary.  -Fozzie
Sarkelias Anophius
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#538 - 2013-07-18 22:45:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Sarkelias Anophius
Danny John-Peter wrote:
Sarkelias Anophius wrote:
Danny John-Peter wrote:
My initial impressions are positive-ish with this, the Deimos tank nerf was pretty derp and unwaranted I'm still formulated opinions on Eagles and Cerbs but so far good thoughts overall.

However;

Dat Vaga;

A shield boost bonus on a ship with four mids, terrible base buffer, poor fitting and terrible cap.

What were you possibly thinking with that, its genuinely one of the most stupid decisions I have seen in a balance pass, not only will it be largely pointless for anything other than lolnicheXLASB Vagas (And no, just because you flew them Kill2 doesnt mean they are the norm, or better than a normal vaga in most cases) it doesn't fix the actual issues with the hull which are it has Anemic DPS generally, but particularly out to range despite its range bonus.

It also doesnt fix the fact that the Cyna is still better in every way, even if you wanted to XLASB it the Vaga is worse, just use that spare mid on the Cyna for an SBA and magically you have a better hull, again.




I'm pretty sure the point is that the Vaga is buffed by the sig bonus, retains its former capabilities, and can now mount a fierce ASB tank to help with solo work. It lost nothing and gained some neat stuff.

I'm not sure I agree that Cinnabons are better in every way. I personally prefer the Vaga's pricetag.


Price cannot be used as a balancing factor, yes the sig bonus helps but being able to avoid damage and tanking was never its issue, its DPS and projection were, which are not being resolved.

It also cant fit an XLASB and still mount a decent ranged kiting fit, so I dont really see the bonus having any point at all beyond lolscramXLASB vagas.

Edit; that seems to fit into the general trend towards making all PVP sub ABC being Approach>Heat>Scram/Web>Hope your numbers are better.


Couldn't really argue the point, if I kite I fly a Loki. Devil's advocate aside, I believe you have a valid argument.
Joelleaveek
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#539 - 2013-07-18 22:49:40 UTC
i am sad that the Ishtar kept the drone bay bonus, the the Deimos kept the MWD cap bonus instead of picking up a tracking bonus and i'm sad that the Sac is still stuck with a cap bonus. These all feel like pure bonus wasters. Meanwhile the Vaga gets rid of its useless bonus and gets something it doesn't really need, though it is kinda cool.
gawrshmapooo
J33 Monocombine
#540 - 2013-07-18 22:52:33 UTC  |  Edited by: gawrshmapooo
Vic Teishikuro wrote:
Deimos still needs more Love.
its in the worst shape of them all.. why would you lower its tank? its tank already sucks..
still i think more needs to be done to it rather than just buffing its tank
cause its still a pretty useless ship



The tho the Sacrilige is nice. it needs more its still something nobodys gunna fly
CCP you have really made a mess of it thinking you can just leave the cap bonus on there.

it really should have either a missle velocity or explosion radius/velocity bonus anything really just not some useless cap bonus. its a armor tanked missle boat so it already wont be using alo of cap. and it no long has a highslot for utility a neut which my justify it at all.


and a few of the other ships have some CPU and Power grid issues



Deimos, Sacrilige, Munin needs more love


CCP I will say that you have done well with the Eagle. The Zealot has always been pretty goodn, The Vaga is nice as always. and I like that the ishtar has the same stats as a dominix lol. with drones now


Do you even dual armor rep bro?
My current Sacrilege SOP:
1: Stagger both reppers
2: leave them on because sexy sexy cap
3: Kill everything (A bit slowly because my dps sucks.)

In my experience it's basically the only Amarr ship WITHOUT horrific cap issues.

Better HACS:
Dps needs to go up
Cost needs to go down
Tank needs a slight to moderate boost.
At 240mil a pop...come on.

EDIT: Also I find the MWD bonus more than useless, and afterburner speed bonus would be much more appropriate.
The biggest factor is cost. At 240mil on average for a cruiser, you can not just casually pvp in them, because losing them really hurts your wallet compared to a 10mil cruiser that is not really any worse.

I sell combat boosters of every strength and type. Message me to get your edge.