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Low-sec Hauling : Worth it?
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Grandma Squirel
#21 - 2013-06-16 02:57:31 UTC
Kara Books wrote:
There is little avaliable because the fact of the matter is, the lowsec haulers right now demand excessive hauling fee's either cutting deeply into my margins 75% or more or exceeding my margins, therefore I simply find no use for lowsec.

if I could find some one who will haul at 1M isk per jump for every 10K then I would be interested, something tells me those numbers would work well for so many other merchants out there looking to peddle their goods.

On a side note, if you had say 50B isk, you could simply buy goods from Jita outright and haul into area's that see lots of combat, like ammo, Cap charges rigs and related fittings worth moving, but dont go crazy, the local sellers that sell at 50%+ markups will not tolerate competition, avoid being tracked at all costs if you want to do this on a consistent basis.


If your at all serious about trading in lowsec, your looking at large volume to move. JF are the way to go. For instance, a JF run to a lowsec system 11 Jumps away from Jita costs 50M isk from Blackfrog, Depending on your laziness factor, (how much you want to avoid highsec gates by jumping further) 8-22m in fuel/dead cynos. 156.25 Isk/m^3 with Blackfrog, or less then 75 if you have your own JF. To beat your requested rate, you would need to fill up only 50k m^3 of the freighter...
Inokuma Yawara
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#22 - 2013-06-16 05:16:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Inokuma Yawara
Some of you's sound like over the road truck drivers. I wonder how many in the famed Red Frog are big rig drivers in real life?

I was looking for a reliable freighter operator, or escort service to ship my ore, but I see now, that the proceeds from a short sale of ore would not make enough to cover the costs. Or am I wrong?

Watch this space.  New exciting signature in development.
Scion Lex
The Unspoken Ones
OnlyHoles
#23 - 2013-06-16 18:37:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Scion Lex
Zaxix wrote:
Hyper Visor wrote:
So basically asking Low-Sec pirates what fitted ships their after, and supplying them with a markup. While trying not to die to them on your return with what they've asked for. Cool sounds like a plan.

@Andres I guess you guys kinda depend on blockade runners out in Raha! Been following BNI since it began. Thought about joining with my main, but RL at the moment means it would be pretty pointless right now. But I'm enjoying reading about your "little" adventures :D

It should be noted that BRs cannot haul more than a few frigates at a time and, depending on which BR, maybe 1 cruiser. That would all be packaged, not prefit, which would mean you'd need to do the fitting at your destination. That will also require that either you or an alt you can fly to the station have the appropriate skills trained to actually sit in and fit those ships.

Mynna may have made a fortune supplying fit ships, but I'm willing to bet he didn't fly them to VFK in a BR.


ok but lets look at the impel with +2 warp strength. I run a ship I call pestilence that is fit with a mwd, 2 stabs and all xpanders in the rest of the lows. Thats a total fo +4 warp strength and a 10sec align time. Oh and 22km3. Add with proper use of bookmarks, station instas and a cloaked scout and your.....basicly untouchable anyway. Its lowsec, there are no bubbles. In all honesty pirates dont chase haulers generally....unless they are bored. And if you are selling to pirates then you probably just negated the only threat in the area. Unless you are sloppy with your logistics and they can't help but point it out. Don't be sloppy, they are still pirates. yar.

......and let me add I am assuming you are dscanning the entire time. This theory works great on the idea that you are at no given point more than 10secs and you have +4 warp str. Landing on 4 drams with scams because you didn't dscan and kept using the same bm's is a rookie mistake ftr.

A good BC pvp fit will run you 150-180m per fit. 180 + 25% delivery fee = 225m. You make 45m for showing up. Will they pay that? If you are prompt and dont F up the order, yes....everytime. If you are smart you will drop the order to 18% and bang you are in business.

Now when I was doing this I knew both the pirates, ship builders and had a good grip on the local market. So, what I could get for cost was better than market. So after mark up it was only 10-14% from the client's perspective. imho THIS is what it means to trade. Its not just finding a market and exploiting it. Its also creating the market, working connections and thinking out side the box a bit.
Hyper Visor
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#24 - 2013-06-16 18:57:55 UTC
@Scion woah sounds like you had a real grip on the whole process. Props to you.

I'd love to get to that point someday. Like I said I'm still starting out with my alt, and a BR is quite far off for the moment. A JF... well that's a whole other world.

I'm starting to get an idea of where I wanna go with this now. I've still got in the back of my mind that my main, which I'm training for PvP, will be what I want to concentrate on. Although as it turns out, due to my playing times running my trader/hauler alt is far easier, as it means I don't need to commit to any corp duties. But in the end I'd rather my alt just stayed secondary, as a way of paying for my main's losses.

Understanding the market is pretty tricky, and it's interesting how even the smallest of margins get quickly filled. Helped in no small part by EVE-Central no doubt. So finding an angle is challenging. However there have been some great ideas here, and thinking outside the box (as you say Scion) is at the core of any good industrialist I'm sure.

I've also found this video very useful : Gideon's Class - Low security Hauling http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z1OAVPmPIGE. Has some really interesting ideas on running T1 industry ships in Low-Sec.
Zaxix
State War Academy
Caldari State
#25 - 2013-06-16 20:56:54 UTC
Scion Lex wrote:
A good BC pvp fit will run you 150-180m per fit. 180 + 25% delivery fee = 225m. You make 45m for showing up. Will they pay that? If you are prompt and dont F up the order, yes....everytime. If you are smart you will drop the order to 18% and bang you are in business.

Now when I was doing this I knew both the pirates, ship builders and had a good grip on the local market. So, what I could get for cost was better than market. So after mark up it was only 10-14% from the client's perspective. imho THIS is what it means to trade. Its not just finding a market and exploiting it. Its also creating the market, working connections and thinking out side the box a bit.

Regardless of DST or BR, you won't be moving much at one time. The issue here is less about getting caught, than about how much you can move in a trip. A BC is 15k m3 packaged; your 22k m3 is only enough to carry one. Let's say that all your numbers are correct and you make 45 million profit on a single pre-fit BC. A single JF trip could bring in 20 of those ships. So, you could pay Black Frog 50mil or so to move a pile of ships and reap the profit off the pile, or you could take 20 trips (even assuming its 5 jumps one way, that is 200 jumps) and that doesn't include the trips you need to get the stack of ships to your starting point. Keep in mind too that pre-fit ships must be sold on contract. You incur fees for that and the max time on a contract is 14 days.

But, pirates can do match too! Why would they pay a 45mil per ship premium for "convenience" when they could get the exact same convenience by paying Black Frog approx 2.5mil per ship plus whatever else they can fit into a load? This is all assuming the pirates aren't doing their own logistics, which most do.

It's definitely possible to make money off the extremely lazy, but your inventory turnover will be slow. You're considering competing in a market that is mostly filled from hisec and by internal corp logistics and third party haulers. You need to calculate your opportunity cost using real numbers, not random numbers pulled from the forums. If this is something you want to do because it is a goal in and of itself, carry on! But if your real interest is in the money and the specifics aren't that important to you, you can do far better in almost any other endeavor. Use hisec to your advantage and build your wallet and skills.


Bokononist

 
Hyper Visor
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#26 - 2013-06-16 22:46:48 UTC
Zaxix wrote:
Scion Lex wrote:
A good BC pvp fit will run you 150-180m per fit. 180 + 25% delivery fee = 225m. You make 45m for showing up. Will they pay that? If you are prompt and dont F up the order, yes....everytime. If you are smart you will drop the order to 18% and bang you are in business.

Now when I was doing this I knew both the pirates, ship builders and had a good grip on the local market. So, what I could get for cost was better than market. So after mark up it was only 10-14% from the client's perspective. imho THIS is what it means to trade. Its not just finding a market and exploiting it. Its also creating the market, working connections and thinking out side the box a bit.

Regardless of DST or BR, you won't be moving much at one time. The issue here is less about getting caught, than about how much you can move in a trip. A BC is 15k m3 packaged; your 22k m3 is only enough to carry one. Let's say that all your numbers are correct and you make 45 million profit on a single pre-fit BC. A single JF trip could bring in 20 of those ships. So, you could pay Black Frog 50mil or so to move a pile of ships and reap the profit off the pile, or you could take 20 trips (even assuming its 5 jumps one way, that is 200 jumps) and that doesn't include the trips you need to get the stack of ships to your starting point. Keep in mind too that pre-fit ships must be sold on contract. You incur fees for that and the max time on a contract is 14 days.

But, pirates can do match too! Why would they pay a 45mil per ship premium for "convenience" when they could get the exact same convenience by paying Black Frog approx 2.5mil per ship plus whatever else they can fit into a load? This is all assuming the pirates aren't doing their own logistics, which most do.

It's definitely possible to make money off the extremely lazy, but your inventory turnover will be slow. You're considering competing in a market that is mostly filled from hisec and by internal corp logistics and third party haulers. You need to calculate your opportunity cost using real numbers, not random numbers pulled from the forums. If this is something you want to do because it is a goal in and of itself, carry on! But if your real interest is in the money and the specifics aren't that important to you, you can do far better in almost any other endeavor. Use hisec to your advantage and build your wallet and skills.





This is a great point, coz although I had played EVE 5 years ago for a short time , i effectively started playing it more seriously at the start of this year. And what you quickly find as a new pilot is (unsurprisingly) most enterprising areas have been taken and mastered already. The Frog services being a very good example. So yeah, why would a pirate pay over the odds for something from someone he doesn't know, when Black Frog provides a great reliable service already?

Also, most long term players have multiple accounts, they're multi-boxing, all areas are covered by a range of differently skilled pilots all manned by one person. Genius, but my mind and time can only really cope with running one capsuleer at one time. My limitation for now.

Making millions as a new player isn't hard in High-Sec, a few good market trades will get you a 100M easy. It's not gonna make me billions, at least not the way I'm doing it! Could it possibly fund my PvP main, I hope so.

Low-Sec runs I think might be like a fun hobby. I reckon I might just fit up a T1 indy, and see how long it takes to get blown up. Just for the hell of it. But for me, at least for now, I think the answer has to be Low-Sec hauling is not worth it.
Erotica 1
Krypteia Operations
#27 - 2013-06-16 22:59:17 UTC

There is profit in anything if you are creative. What you may want to do is find yourself a handful of clients to exclusively work with. I routinely have a need for moving things around. The only problem is my required collaterals are higher than what the frogs accept and I hate setting up a ton of small contracts.

If you can accept collaterals in the range of 10-25b, I have plenty of work for you.

See Bio for isk doubling rules. If you didn't read bio, chances are you funded those who did.
Scion Lex
The Unspoken Ones
OnlyHoles
#28 - 2013-07-18 22:00:28 UTC
um why would a 10 billion isk capital industrial be part of this conversation at all. I mean really. The guy asks about LOWSEC HAULING. An example is offered and your retort is it could done better with an asset you wont have access to for literally years. Brilliant. Oh and black frog does it better. Your right, when they feel like it. In the example provided the service that is really being offered is the speed of delivery not the item itself. The Client is paying for the oppertunity cost of a time sensitive delievry. Yet I imagine that escaped your ironclad finanical perspective. Roll
Zaxix
State War Academy
Caldari State
#29 - 2013-07-19 14:58:46 UTC
Scion Lex wrote:
um why would a 10 billion isk capital industrial be part of this conversation at all. I mean really. The guy asks about LOWSEC HAULING. An example is offered and your retort is it could done better with an asset you wont have access to for literally years. Brilliant. Oh and black frog does it better. Your right, when they feel like it. In the example provided the service that is really being offered is the speed of delivery not the item itself. The Client is paying for the oppertunity cost of a time sensitive delievry. Yet I imagine that escaped your ironclad finanical perspective. Roll

Why do you have LOWSEC HAULING in all caps? Are you implying that JFs aren't for that? Or that cloaky haulers are better for it? If you can do math, you should easily be able to see why someone would use a JF for losec logistical work, rather than use a cloaky hauler.

I encourage you to set up a losec hauling business that offers rush service. And just for the fun of conversation, why don't you reply with what you would charge per trip for that service. Then we can get to the heart of the matter. You should also take a moment to look up "opportunity cost."

Bokononist

 
Porkita
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#30 - 2013-07-20 00:48:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Porkita
Kara Books wrote:
There is little avaliable because the fact of the matter is, the lowsec haulers right now demand excessive hauling fee's either cutting deeply into my margins 75% or more or exceeding my margins, therefore I simply find no use for lowsec.

if I could find some one who will haul at 1M isk per jump for every 10K then I would be interested, something tells me those numbers would work well for so many other merchants out there looking to peddle their goods.

On a side note, if you had say 50B isk, you could simply buy goods from Jita outright and haul into area's that see lots of combat, like ammo, Cap charges rigs and related fittings worth moving, but dont go crazy, the local sellers that sell at 50%+ markups will not tolerate competition, avoid being tracked at all costs if you want to do this on a consistent basis.


A flat 60M fee for a JF run... anywhere from highsec to lowsec. That's what we take at Push. That isn't expensive or excessive at all actually, considering the risks involved and that a 6-7B ship has to be used, the hauler has to have 2 accounts to make this run and pay for fuel and cyno too... not to speak of the time invested.

The hauler does all the work. The trader has to make sure to find a viable market and products that are worth it. Our flat fee makes this independent of location and distance and very calculable. Any additional 1B collateral is even only 20M. Now if that fee is not payable by your profits, then it would have been probably a not profitable market anyway.



To the OP: There is good money in lowsec trading/hauling. But you have to find the locations and the niches. The topology here is a little different than in highsec. Find where the people are and what their demand is and you have something to start from. Oh yes, and make sure you know exactly what you are doing, when you want to haul into lowsec, so you won't risk your ship and cargo unprepared. There are ways to learn from the profis. ;)

There is no need to move stuff, because now you can push it!
Ireland VonVicious
Vicious Trading Company
#31 - 2013-07-20 06:01:38 UTC
It is possible but you have to be willing to do it on a huge scale with a corporation if you want anything better than high sec. ((Subtracting for losses from the total made over time.))
Cavalira
Habemus
#32 - 2013-07-23 15:20:50 UTC
If you feel like it, buy drugs from producers - distribute it to smaller lowsec hubs for decent margins. Contact the "Nigerian Drug manufactory co." if you feel like it doing this drug thing.
Jani Padecain
Panama Investment Bank
#33 - 2013-07-23 16:16:23 UTC
You also could contract some corporations and alliances what stage out from lowsec. Not the massive ones tho. They allready have JF routes shorted.

Offer some hauling to them. Supply basic dotrine ships, ammo mudules etc, what the dudes ever use. Hauling is allways risky and more importantly boring. You are going to be supriced how often people will pay their way out of this pain.
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