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[Odyssey 1.1] Heavy Assault Cruisers

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Sergeant Acht Scultz
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#461 - 2013-07-18 20:02:24 UTC
Drunken Bum wrote:
Diemos still sucks. Munin doesnt really look good for anything either. I like most of the changes, ishtar meeds more cpu. Deimost and munin just really dont look worth flying for anything really




ASB shield extender MWD point, DCU mfs/te nano+Blasters = OMGFCKPOWNMOBILE

removed inappropriate ASCII art signature - CCP Eterne
N9 Tau
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#462 - 2013-07-18 20:04:22 UTC
So...Why are we keeping 5% MWD cap bonus for Deimos?
Didn't we drop this in Thorax, favoring tracking bonus?
I think it would make much more sense to change it to tracking bonus + rebuff the ehp...since armor and hull nerf really
took out a large chunk.
Alundil
Rolled Out
#463 - 2013-07-18 20:10:09 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Harvey James wrote:
Fr0stle wrote:
I'll just add my voice to the group and ask for some more CPU on the Ishtar. It was always CPU gimped and now we have all these new drone modules that are CPU heavy too. More CPU is needed to make this ship viable in it's intended role.

that and reducing CPU on all drone mods would make sense ... also add a drone tracking for the lows like a TE for drones.

…or, hell, just to enforce the whole “T2 = specialisation” angle…

How about having the Ishtar reduce the CPU need for drone mods? That way, the ship can maintain its limited CPU to keep it from being too versatile, but you can still pack it absolutely full of the very specific set of mods that are related to its niche without making those available to every ship out there.

At -10%/level, that would mean Omnilink IIs at 29.5 tf, Drone link IIs at 27.5 tf, and Drone damage amps at 15 tf when you have HAC V.

This would be great to be honest.

I'm right behind you
Maximus Andendare
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
#464 - 2013-07-18 20:11:41 UTC
N9 Tau wrote:
So...Why are we keeping 5% MWD cap bonus for Deimos?
Didn't we drop this in Thorax, favoring tracking bonus?
I think it would make much more sense to change it to tracking bonus + rebuff the ehp...since armor and hull nerf really
took out a large chunk.
Yeah, it'd honestly be better served by--and I can't believe I'm saying this--an armor repair bonus. If there is to be a wasted bonus, of course. TBH, T2 HACs ought to represent a straight-up increase in damage performance over a T1 attack cruiser, so the bonus really should be tracking or rate of fire. (4 turrets, 10% damage, 5% rate of fire, 5 highs and 7 lows to make it effective brawler.) Save the shield kitey to Thorax or Talos--everyone else still will and they'll outperform the Deimos every time. Gallente will have to continue to use Proteii or CSs as tanky brawlers, it seems.

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Vic Teishikuro
Tactical Chaos Corp
#465 - 2013-07-18 20:15:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Vic Teishikuro
Deimos still needs more Love.
its in the worst shape of them all.. why would you lower its tank? its tank already sucks..
still i think more needs to be done to it rather than just buffing its tank
cause its still a pretty useless ship



The tho the Sacrilige is nice. it needs more its still something nobodys gunna fly
CCP you have really made a mess of it thinking you can just leave the cap bonus on there.

it really should have either a missle velocity or explosion radius/velocity bonus anything really just not some useless cap bonus. its a armor tanked missle boat so it already wont be using alo of cap. and it no long has a highslot for utility a neut which my justify it at all.


and a few of the other ships have some CPU and Power grid issues



Deimos, Sacrilige, Munin needs more love


CCP I will say that you have done well with the Eagle. The Zealot has always been pretty goodn, The Vaga is nice as always. and I like that the ishtar has the same stats as a dominix lol. with drones now
Sarkelias Anophius
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#466 - 2013-07-18 20:16:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Sarkelias Anophius
Posting again to un-**** the Sacrilege for the love of all that is good.

5/4/6 slot layout, 4 launchers, 10% damage bonus. Fitting, tank and utility problems, all solved.


dooooooo eeeeeeet
M1k3y Koontz
Speaker for the Dead
Shadow Cartel
#467 - 2013-07-18 20:16:48 UTC
Grath Telkin wrote:
Marlona Sky wrote:
What are the reasons to choose one of these new HACs over an aBC?


You have too much money and or you dont like flying ships that don't suck


Ships that don't suck? Have you SEEN the T1 cruisers? They are far superior to HACs when cost is considered. In some cases they are simply better than their T2 variants, cost be damned.

How much herp could a herp derp derp if a herp derp could herp derp.
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#468 - 2013-07-18 20:18:33 UTC
poor CCP Rise .. i bet he will go home tonight crying WHY me!!!!! .. there all so mean :P
they don't give fozzie the same amount of abuse :)

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
Sarkelias Anophius
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#469 - 2013-07-18 20:18:47 UTC
M1k3y Koontz wrote:
Grath Telkin wrote:
Marlona Sky wrote:
What are the reasons to choose one of these new HACs over an aBC?


You have too much money and or you dont like flying ships that don't suck


Ships that don't suck? Have you SEEN the T1 cruisers? They are far superior to HACs when cost is considered. In some cases they are simply better than their T2 variants, cost be damned.


I think you lost one of the negatives in his post
Leskit
Pure Victory
#470 - 2013-07-18 20:19:24 UTC
Maximus Andendare wrote:


But back to the point: CCP likely wants HACs to be what their name implies: A heavy assau--attack--cruiser. A T1 cruiser with more tank. But that distinguishment will never justify the 10:1 increase in cost, and if they don't balance based on cost, then there's really no point in having these ships cost more just so we can get a marginal increase like extra optimal range. (And besides, Navy ships are already T1 ships with more tank.) These ships have to do more: project damage better, better falloff, better tracking, faster rate of fire, stronger cap, stronger tank, etc. There needs to be a reason to buy one--and a much better reason than a marginal performance increase.

CCP, I urge you to have a hard look at the Zealot and why it's been so successful in the game. Ask yourselves why Deimoses, Eagles and the others have been shelved. Then, once you answer those questions, work in solutions to this line that addresses those answers.


Mr. Floydy wrote:
Looking at the Zealot as an example. It's a big chunk slower in a straight line than an Omen, whilst taking a few extra seconds to align. If you don't want to make it and the other ranged HACs faster can you consider giving them more fitting - powergrid in particular - so they can actually fit the full size guns, MWD and some tank without needing fitting mods / implant?
Looking in EFT, with perfect skills. Can't fit a set of Heavy Beams, meta 4 800mm plate, meta mwd and even a micro cap booster without implants or fitting mods. It just needs a percent more! :p

Sarkelias Anophius wrote:
The Sacrilege would benefit tremendously from going to 4 launchers with a 10% damage bonus and trading a high for a low. This would open up so much viability it's just silly. Rise, please read this and the other Sacri posts. I love this ship, I've flown it forever, and this is our chance to make it work without breaking anything.


These are good enough ideas to repost a few times...
XvXTeacherVxV
Be Nice Inc.
Prismatic Legion
#471 - 2013-07-18 20:21:56 UTC
The Muninn still seems pretty lackluster compared to alternative options if you ask me and the fact that it uses projectiles makes Minmatar the only race not to have a HAC with an alternative primary weapon. E.g.

Deimos - Hybrid, Ishtar - Drones
Zealot - Lasers, Sacrilige - Missiles
Eagle - Hybrid, Cerberus - Missiles
Vagabond - Projectile, Muninn - Projectile?

Seems weird. How about tossing this projectile Muninn nobody's ever cared much for and replacing it with a missile Muninn so those Minmatar missile folks aren't left without a HAC to fly? I'd give it similar bonuses to the Cerb but replace the Flight Time bonus with an explosion radius bonus, giving it a nice edge against smaller ships. Not crazy about the type specific damage bonus, but it'd be weird if the cerb had one and the muninn didn't.

Something like this:


Muninn

Role Bonus: 50% reduction in MicroWarpdrive signature radius penalty

Minmatar Cruiser Bonuses:
5% bonus to Explosive Missile damage
10% bonus to Missile velocity

Heavy Assault Cruiser Bonuses:
5% bonus to Heavy Missile and Heavy Assault Missile explosion velocity
5% bonus to Missile Launcher rate of fire
Can you see the rapier?: http://imgur.com/aFelCpv,GH6lqDE
Aloe Cloveris
The Greater Goon
#472 - 2013-07-18 20:23:03 UTC
The introduction of 8-turret ABCs was definitely not short-sighted at all. Should be easy as pie to balance every other ship in existence around them. Dunno what the problem is here.
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#473 - 2013-07-18 20:23:24 UTC
Sarkelias Anophius wrote:
Posting again to un-**** the Sacrilege for the love of all that is good.

5/4/6 slot layout, 4 launchers, 10% damage bonus. Fitting, tank and utility problems, all solved.


dooooooo eeeeeeet


I think all the HACS could use stronger damage bonuses more 10% damage bonuses across the board also that 16th slot would certainly make sense here.. The eagle could do with a 5th low and a 10% damage bonus

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#474 - 2013-07-18 20:25:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Harvey James
Aloe Cloveris wrote:
The introduction of 8-turret ABCs was definitely not short-sighted at all. Should be easy as pie to balance every other ship in existence around them. Dunno what the problem is here.


I believe they were given fair warning in the ABC balance pass

Now if they made them T2 and reduced the turret amount to 7 maybe HACS would have an easier time of it

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
Jureth22
State War Academy
Caldari State
#475 - 2013-07-18 20:28:57 UTC
please kil2 for the love of god give zealot drones.thanks
Maximus Andendare
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
#476 - 2013-07-18 20:29:03 UTC
XvXTeacherVxV wrote:
The Muninn still seems pretty lackluster compared to alternative options if you ask me and the fact that it uses projectiles makes Minmatar the only race not to have a HAC with an alternative primary weapon. E.g.

Deimos - Hybrid, Ishtar - Drones
Zealot - Lasers, Sacrilige - Missiles
Eagle - Hybrid, Cerberus - Missiles
Vagabond - Projectile, Muninn - Projectile?

Seems weird. How about tossing this projectile Muninn nobody's ever cared much for and replacing it with a missile Muninn so those Minmatar missile folks aren't left without a HAC to fly? I'd give it similar bonuses to the Cerb but replace the Flight Time bonus with an explosion radius bonus, giving it a nice edge against smaller ships. Not crazy about the type specific damage bonus, but it'd be weird if the cerb had one and the muninn didn't.

Something like this:


Muninn

Role Bonus: 50% reduction in MicroWarpdrive signature radius penalty

Minmatar Cruiser Bonuses:
5% bonus to Explosive Missile damage
10% bonus to Missile velocity

Heavy Assault Cruiser Bonuses:
5% bonus to Heavy Missile and Heavy Assault Missile explosion velocity
5% bonus to Missile Launcher rate of fire
It'd be a great idea to have missile ships represented--even using the sort of dual damage bonus a Scythe FI gets, but I think it's too tricky to bake that into a hull that gets 4x damage/application bonuses. I think the stat overload on have 4x missile bonuses and 4x projectile bonuses would be too much visually, too much to balance around, etc. I'm fairly certain that the Claymore changes (making it into a missile boat) is what CCP is going to say is the "interim" missile boat for Minmatar, along with the aforementioned Scythe FI, of course (and likely an updated Huginn I'd wager (Super Bellicose, anyone?).

Besides, the two Minmatar HACs do represent two aspects of Minmatar playstyle: one is a fast, kitey monster (which is absolutely Minmatar), while the other performs well as a high range, high alpha arty monster. Notice, though, that they both are monsters :)

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Syrias Bizniz
some random local shitlords
#477 - 2013-07-18 20:32:18 UTC
I really like the changes, however the Ishtar is the only ship i'm not happy with.

It stays a heavy drone boat like it was before. Like every other dedicated droneboat on cruiser scale and up. Navy Vex? 125mbit! Domi? 125mbit! Armageddon? 125mbit! Gila? 125mbit! And i'll just assume that the Eos will have that 125mbit, too.

It's all the same, there's no difference in the droneboats except for stats that aren't related to the drones - tank, mobility, utility.

I'd really like to see the Tech 2, the specialised ships, to actually be specialised in drone combat - different from the
'general' approach. What might be interesting for example is lowering their bandwidth to 100 mbit or 75 mbit, but giving them a Skillbonus (on Tech2 skill) for +1 controlled drone. I'm aware that this might bring up incredible powerful setups, so maybe tweak it with lesser(no) drone damage bonus, for example.
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#478 - 2013-07-18 20:32:52 UTC
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
Why is the Ishtar not getting some fitting buff, the vexor has +100 power grid and +15 CPU


Bingo...The Ishtar has always had huge CPU issues, and this does nothing to change that.
And forget about the Ishtar being used in action that requires high speed.
You can't kite with it, and you can't close with it to brawl.

It would also seem that CCP Rise has a Sentry drone fetish, this is twice now we get a bonus that pretty much applies only to sentry drones.
And that is weird considering the MWD role bonus all the HAC got.

Not at all, especially when you consider the size of it's drone bay.

Drop sentries and then kite your opponent around them.
If your opponent gets out of your sentries range, either close distance or warp out, abandon the old set and launch a new set. This is the classic use of sentry drones with a hull smaller than a BS.

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Alundil
Rolled Out
#479 - 2013-07-18 20:34:43 UTC
Butzewutze wrote:
I am not to impressed by the changes to be honest. Why doesnt the zealot have a dronebay but the muninn gets one? Why does the muninn get a lowslot instead of a med (that would truly beeing handy on that ship). Why does the Vagabond get a shieldboosting bonus with only 4 mediumslots? MWD + point -> 2 slot loltank?

Quote:
afterburner variations that are already very strong


About what setups are you talking? I am curious.


Basically the vast majority of the Zealot comps currently used in 0.0 is AB fit. Period. Small gang Zealots I'm not too sure of. But in large AHAC fleets, between armor boosts/links and the AB + small sig they are very powerful as is. Not without counters, mind, but very powerful as a group.

I'm right behind you
M1k3y Koontz
Speaker for the Dead
Shadow Cartel
#480 - 2013-07-18 20:36:28 UTC
Maximus Andendare wrote:

It'd be a great idea to have missile ships represented--even using the sort of dual damage bonus a Scythe FI gets, but I think it's too tricky to bake that into a hull that gets 4x damage/application bonuses. I think the stat overload on have 4x missile bonuses and 4x projectile bonuses would be too much visually, too much to balance around, etc. I'm fairly certain that the Claymore changes (making it into a missile boat) is what CCP is going to say is the "interim" missile boat for Minmatar, along with the aforementioned Scythe FI, of course (and likely an updated Huginn I'd wager (Super Bellicose, anyone?).

Besides, the two Minmatar HACs do represent two aspects of Minmatar playstyle: one is a fast, kitey monster (which is absolutely Minmatar), while the other performs well as a high range, high alpha arty monster. Notice, though, that they both are monsters :)


Muninn is definitely not a monster, its terrible, the Tornado outclasses it and its alpha is weak at best.

The Vagabond is a kiting superfast monster? One word: Cynabal.

How much herp could a herp derp derp if a herp derp could herp derp.