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[Odyssey 1.1] Heavy Assault Cruisers

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Maximus Andendare
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
#441 - 2013-07-18 19:15:29 UTC
Viribus wrote:
Kesi Raae wrote:
you don't want T1 ships to be made obsolete again by making HAC's straight upgrades.


That would make sense if HACs actually filled a different intended role than T1 cruisers, which they don't, and this patch won't do anything to change. They're T1 cruisers that trade mobility for tank and DPS, except they also cost 10 times as much, so no one uses them. For damage application Tier3s are better, for brawling T1 cruisers do nearly the same thing but much cheaper, the only viable HAC in large fleets is the zealot by virtue of its good fleet-oriented bonuses and T2 resists (and because of how bad the Omen is)

HACs either need an entirely new role that they excel at (unlikely, as pretty much every conceivable role in this game is already well-filled), or to be expensive direct upgrades to T1 ships

imo there's nothing inherently wrong with direct upgrades, that's basically what most navy ships and many T2 ships are, and people still fly T1 ships because cost-efficiency is something people care about. The Exequror Navy is a direct upgrade of the Thorax, superior in every way, and guess what? People still fly Thoraxes
QFT. The bolded part is what needs to be shouted from the roof tops. T1 ships are very capable, throwaway fun wagons. T2 is what you fly when you're more serious, would prefer to not get killed, and want a better performer.

Besides, if you guys have any designs on nerfing T3s to perform "less," then these ships are going to have to out perform them. As the iteration is now, their dps is still sub-T3, so unless you're going to nerf T3s into oblivion, these HACs have to out-damage (perhaps damage as much as) a T3s post-T3-rebalance and certainly more than their respective T1 counterparts. At the end of the day:

T1: Fastest, agile, high dps, small to med. tank
T2: Slower than T1, less agile, highest dps, med tank
T3: Middle of T1/T2 speed, middle T1/T2 agility, middle dps, higher tank (but obviously most adaptable)
CSs (since they really fit in here, too): Slowest speed, slow agility, ~T1 and a little dps, highest tank.

These are obviously all approximations. The Vaga, for example, is faster than a Stabber, but the overall concept is the same.

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Mr Floydy
Questionable Ethics.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#442 - 2013-07-18 19:15:42 UTC
In addition to previous post. +1 to cheaper hacs and more ishtar cpu!
Maximus Andendare
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
#443 - 2013-07-18 19:16:53 UTC
Liafcipe9000 wrote:
Losing hitpoints is a bad thing for brawlers. The Deimos is no exception. Or are you trying to turn the Deimos into a Shield tank now? sort of a Gallente version of the vagabond? the hitpoint reduction makes no sense to me whatsoever.
It doesn't make sense to me because the Thorax performs the shield kiting role WAY better than a Deimos will--PLUS, it's got a tracking bonus, making those now-worse tracking medium rails hit better.

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M1k3y Koontz
Speaker for the Dead
Shadow Cartel
#444 - 2013-07-18 19:17:35 UTC
Harvey James wrote:
M1k3y Koontz wrote:
Harvey James wrote:
darius mclever wrote:
Harvey James wrote:
and the comment that vaga can brawl seems ridiculous to me even with the ASB bonus which must be hard too fit i would imagine. the vaga is built on speed and kiting .. just remove the shield booster bonus and just buff its damage bonus to 10% so 3 more useful bonuses instead of 4 weaker and odd bonus combos


did you miss that many people already fly ASB vagas?


but do they brawl with them?


Yup

[High Slots]
Dual 180mm Autocannon II
Small Neut/Nos

[Mid Slots]
10mn Experimental Microwarpdrive
10mn Afterburner II
X-Large Ancillary Shield Booster
Faint Epsilon Warp Scrambler

[Low Slots]
Damage Control II
Gyrostabilizer II
Gyrostabilizer II
Tracking Enhancer II
Nanofiber Internatl Structure II

[Rig Slots]

Medium Ancillary Current Router
Medium Anti-Kinetic Screen Reinforcer


Requires a 1% PG implant, 400 DPS without drones
MWD - 2700m/s
AB - 1000 m/s
Slowboat - 408m/s
12k EHP
750 DPS tank with overloaded ASB (Should be closer to 1000 with the new bonus, higher still with crystals)

Can catch kiting ships, can get under battleship guns, works well for what amounts to basically a one slot tank.
I think Garmon also did a video with one of these... one of those elite PvPers did a video with it at least.


interesting fit.... but is it worth using over a cyclone dual ASB 1200 plus tank for a 4th of the price?
Which is always an issue if you care about your wallet and your kb...
Also when CS get buffed .. similar price which is more useful to the fleet?



And that is why HACs are bad, even with these changes

I'm also going to point out that a Vaga goes twice as fast and has a lower sig giving it the ability to speed tank.
Cyclone is likely superior in most situations though.

How much herp could a herp derp derp if a herp derp could herp derp.
Langbaobao
Tr0pa de elite.
#445 - 2013-07-18 19:25:32 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:

VAGABOND - Like with the Stabber, we are rolling the max velocity bonus into the base stats, and then replacing it with a shield boost bonus. This has nice racial continuity and supports a play-style that has been emerging for the Vaga anyway as a close range active brawler. Please keep in mind that it can still be used exactly the same way that it always has been with virtually no change in performance.

Role Bonus: 50% reduction in MicroWarpdrive signature radius penalty

Minmatar Cruiser Bonuses:
5% bonus to Medium Projectile Turret rate of fire
7.5% bonus to shield boost amount (was 5% bonus to max velocity)

Heavy Assault Cruiser Bonuses:
10% bonus to Medium Projectile Turret falloff
5% bonus to Medium Projectile Turret damage

Slot layout: 6H, 4M, 5L; 5 turrets, 1 launchers(-1)
Fittings: 855 PWG, 395 CPU
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 1750(+97) / 1400(+63) / 980(-4)
Capacitor (amount) : 1060(-2.5)
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 290(+51) / .504 / 11590000 / 8.1s
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 25 / 25
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 50km / 330 / 6(+1)
Sensor strength: 14 Ladar
Signature radius: 115


It's kinda difficult to see the further decline of the Vaga s a kiting ship which I loved so much. The nerfs to TEs were just the last nail in the coffin of a gradual descent into mediocrity and oblivion. I had hoped that the HAC rebalance would have given it some new shine but now I see that idea was unfounded. The decline continues with an additional speed nerf (albeight a slight one) and the addition of an unnecessary bonus to ASBs. I'm quite sure there will be some shmucks that will fit the ASB on it and use it as a close range brawler, I'm quite sure it will still stay a niche, and it will be a poor brawler at that because of a lack of mid slots.

How could have things be different? Well dunno, haven't given it that much though, but maybe if instead of the ASB bonus it was given a stronger speed bonus or some kind of tracking or agility bonus.

PS. If you're so dead set on the the ASB bonus, more CPU and PG will be needed, so at least give it a boost on that side.
Sigras
Conglomo
#446 - 2013-07-18 19:31:49 UTC
The only complaint I have is about the deimos.

IMHO it is still the die-most with an outdated MWD cap bonus. Either it needs some sort of survivability bonus, or a speed bonus.

I think the coolest bonus to give it would be a 10% increase to MWD overloaded speed per level.

This would mean an MWD would still give a 500% bonus when turned on normally, but when overloading instead of giving a 750% bonus it would be a 875% bonus (a difference of about 400 m/s on a 290 m/s base ship) This would increase the deimos' ability to catch its opponents quickly without increasing its ability to kite forever.
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#447 - 2013-07-18 19:32:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Harvey James
Quote:
M1k3y Koontz
interesting fit.... but is it worth using over a cyclone dual ASB 1200 plus tank for a 4th of the price?
Which is always an issue if you care about your wallet and your kb...
Also when CS get buffed .. similar price which is more useful to the fleet?

And that is why HACs are bad, even with these changes

I'm also going to point out that a Vaga goes twice as fast and has a lower sig giving it the ability to speed tank.
Cyclone is likely superior in most situations though.

It makes me sad that CCP don't seem to get it .. HACS with these changes are still... what else can i fly that is cheaper and does the same job than a HAC?
and besides the zealot its hard too think of any reason to fly a HAC atm even if they made them mostly better than T1 attack cruisers but slightly slower for instance i would still look at ABC's T3's Recons and Navy/pirate cruisers before these HACS.

Maybe in the future they will nerf ABC's, T3's and change pirate cruisers bonuses maybe they might become a genuine go to choice. But in the current climate and the future climate i am still struggling to find a reason beyond the token MWD bonus on a kiting HAC IF they make any of them fast enough and the sig radius isn't the size of a battleship that is.

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
Sergeant Acht Scultz
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#448 - 2013-07-18 19:32:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Sergeant Acht Scultz
Romar Thel wrote:
Raging Beaver wrote:
Great changes! Time to go to Jita and sell all HACs... And let me guess, you're going to make them more expensive as well, right?


They worth being more expensive after THAT boosting!

hahahah. Good point bro



Just bring more of T1 versions and accomplish the same job for a fraction of the cost. Eventually upgrade for navy versions and do as well for, again, cheaper.

If something HACs are already too expensive for the poor performing, and yes, global cost is what everything is about or what's the point of fitting an expensive T2 Cruiser doing nothing better the T1 version does or absolutely nothing better than Navy version?

removed inappropriate ASCII art signature - CCP Eterne
Romar Thel
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#449 - 2013-07-18 19:38:09 UTC
Yeah probably t1 will get even more expensive after this change..
Higher demand! lol
Alsyth
#450 - 2013-07-18 19:42:17 UTC
And just give them their third rig slot, honestly.

You removed the dumb 375 calibration of faction ships, why should T2 still have only 2 rigs when T3 have 3?

That's one of the thing that makes HAC underwhelming when compared to faction cruisers, t3 and BCs.
Lithorn
State War Academy
Caldari State
#451 - 2013-07-18 19:44:48 UTC
Munin needs more grid/cpu and some may tell me i'm crazy and go screw myself but, the zealot could use a bit more of both also.
Bienator II
madmen of the skies
#452 - 2013-07-18 19:46:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Bienator II
i can't even remember how medium beam lasers sound. Do they wubwub or wub?

edit: and all you really had to do to rebalance the zealot is to paint it red

how to fix eve: 1) remove ECM 2) rename dampeners to ECM 3) add new anti-drone ewar for caldari 4) give offgrid boosters ongrid combat value
Tankn00blicus
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#453 - 2013-07-18 19:49:29 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
ISHTAR - We are replacing the medium hybrid damage bonus with a drone bonus and removing one high slot to put its total 1 below the rest of the class, as is standard for drone-focused ships.

Role Bonus: 50% reduction in MicroWarpdrive signature radius penalty

Gallente Cruiser Bonuses:
10% bonus to drone tracking and optimal range(was 5% bonus to Medium Hybrid Turret damage)
10% bonus to drone hitpoints and Damage

Heavy Assault Cruiser Bonuses:
5 km bonus to Drone operation range per level
50 m3 extra Drone Bay per level

Slot layout: 4H(-1), 5M, 5L; 4 turrets(+1), 0 launchers
Fittings: 700 PWG, 285 CPU
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 1400(-6) / 1600(-18) / 2300(+191)
Capacitor (amount) : 1300(+175)
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 185(-6) / .52 / 11700000 / 8.43s
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 125 / 125
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 60km / 294 / 7
Sensor strength: 16 Magnetometric
Signature radius: 145

Right, the Ishtar totally isn't one of the most notoriously CPU-gimped hulls in the game, no need to fix. That previous lack of a 4th turret hardpoint was a major problem though!
M1k3y Koontz
Speaker for the Dead
Shadow Cartel
#454 - 2013-07-18 19:51:35 UTC
Lithorn wrote:
Munin needs more grid/cpu and some may tell me i'm crazy and go screw myself but, the zealot could use a bit more of both also.



All HACs need more, thats one of the bigger issues facing HAC pilots, the fact that there is NO flexibility in their fittings.

How much herp could a herp derp derp if a herp derp could herp derp.
Drunken Bum
#455 - 2013-07-18 19:55:07 UTC
Diemos still sucks. Munin doesnt really look good for anything either. I like most of the changes, ishtar meeds more cpu. Deimost and munin just really dont look worth flying for anything really

After the patch we're giving the market some gentle supply restriction, like tying one wrist to the bedpost loosely with soft silk rope. Just enough to make things a bit more exciting for the market, not enough to make a safeword necessary.  -Fozzie
Sergeant Acht Scultz
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#456 - 2013-07-18 19:58:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Sergeant Acht Scultz
Romar Thel wrote:
Yeah probably t1 will get even more expensive after this change..
Higher demand! lol


1 researched BPO of "whatever T1 Cruiser of the month" is cheap, requires little effort to build a couple ones and perform as well as T2, if they become more expensive because offer/demand usual florensiensis dialog blahblahblah players can always build their own for little effort and collect some tears on top.


On topic: as mentioned above there's no reason why T2 cruisers shouldn't have a third rig slot, it's not like if they were really harmful anyway.

removed inappropriate ASCII art signature - CCP Eterne
Simon BlackWell
Doomheim
#457 - 2013-07-18 19:58:15 UTC
Deimos has been hit fairly hard. 4th mid is nice, but honestly, I've no use for a web for the most part.

Nerfing it's EHP was a bit of a low blow. It can't brawl properly now, not to mention that with the utility highslot gone, there went the ubiquitous small Nos to keep everything running whilst you brawl.


You've changed the Nos mechanics, then begin plucking Utility highslots away from things.


Staaaaahp
Marlona Sky
State War Academy
Caldari State
#458 - 2013-07-18 19:58:46 UTC
What are the reasons to choose one of these new HACs over an aBC?
Fyrkraag
Perkone
Caldari State
#459 - 2013-07-18 20:00:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Fyrkraag
REserved
Grath Telkin
Amok.
Goonswarm Federation
#460 - 2013-07-18 20:00:43 UTC
Marlona Sky wrote:
What are the reasons to choose one of these new HACs over an aBC?


You have too much money and or you dont like flying ships that don't suck

Malcanis - Without drone assign, the slowcat doctrine will wither and die.