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Why nerf high sec?

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Cipher Jones
The Thomas Edwards Taco Tuesday All Stars
#141 - 2013-07-18 19:25:20 UTC
Quote:
Why would they, when the targets and the money are in high?


And thats the problem right there. Well, you misrepresentation anyway.

There is more money in every sector of space than there is in Hisec.

Kspace, null, and low all have greater rewards than hisec.

The problem is that the "risk" those areas is too high for about half the population, and that the risk to reward of low is completely skewed. There is way more money in wspace than low, and the risk is much much less. Same with null, provided you have blues.

Lowsec is broken, not hisec. You should be locked out of anything but an NPC corp if you flee a war dec, and the tax should be higher. That would completely fix the "risk to reward" of hisec.

internet spaceships

are serious business sir.

and don't forget it
Julius Priscus
#142 - 2013-07-18 20:55:08 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:
In terms of isk / risk from easiest to hardest

Sov null PVE - basically risk free isk printing 500 mill per hour
High Sec PVE - 70 mill per hour
WH Space PVE - not sure per hour but quite risky due to no local
Low Sec PVE - screw this

If we're going to point fingers lets start at the top maybe?

Left out incursions because never done them



how the **** do you come up with 500m isk an hour in null sec?
Doc Severide
Doomheim
#143 - 2013-07-18 22:12:21 UTC
mechtech wrote:
...the entire balance of the game gets thrown out of whack.
Heh heh... He said whack...

Everyone is always repeating the mantra "Don't Trust Anyone" ad nauseum... If I can't trust the guys I play with, why bother playing with them at all? Fly Solo...
Mortimer Civeri
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#144 - 2013-07-18 22:43:57 UTC
Julius Priscus wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:
In terms of isk / risk from easiest to hardest

Sov null PVE - basically risk free isk printing 500 mill per hour
High Sec PVE - 70 mill per hour
WH Space PVE - not sure per hour but quite risky due to no local
Low Sec PVE - screw this

If we're going to point fingers lets start at the top maybe?

Left out incursions because never done them



how the **** do you come up with 500m isk an hour in null sec?

He thinks a 10/10 drops with every anomaly, and there is an officer spawn in every belt.

"I don't know which is worse, ...that everyone has his price, or that the price is always so low." Calvin
Julius Priscus
#145 - 2013-07-19 02:18:40 UTC
Mortimer Civeri wrote:
Julius Priscus wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:
In terms of isk / risk from easiest to hardest

Sov null PVE - basically risk free isk printing 500 mill per hour
High Sec PVE - 70 mill per hour
WH Space PVE - not sure per hour but quite risky due to no local
Low Sec PVE - screw this

If we're going to point fingers lets start at the top maybe?

Left out incursions because never done them



how the **** do you come up with 500m isk an hour in null sec?

He thinks a 10/10 drops with every anomaly, and there is an officer spawn in every belt.



oh yeah.... and here I was running solo earning 125m an hour before corp taxes ( that's if I was lucky ).

silly me!!!
Nuglord
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#146 - 2013-07-19 03:22:12 UTC
Kyperion wrote:
Nuglord wrote:
Bill Overbeck wrote:
Most of the anti high sec arguments seem to sum up to "This is a sandbox, but this is MY sandbox! Your input, nor presence, is not wanted!"

I think you're referring to most of the anti...anti-pvp arguments.

A lot of players that predominantly do PvE in highsec want it to be a "no-PvP zone".

I've argued this point in the past on other sites but it doesn't seem that with your blanket generalization that you're interested in a legitimate discussion.

The only argument for Highsec PVP is the devolved anti social scumbags like easy targets.... .5+ PVP is just free kills for pirates/gankers, there is no arguing that point. Let me loose in a game where I can PVP/PVE equally well in the same ship with the same fittings, pirate scumbags would get a comeuppance.

You can do everything anyone else in the game can do.

Any other points you'd like to bring up?
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#147 - 2013-07-19 03:49:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Infinity Ziona
You can make 500 mill an hour in nullsec doing high level complexes and running your PI. Passive isk bounties and loot drops. You will notice that I used an extremely high amount for high sec (70 mill) vs extremely high in null (500 mill) both of which ARE possible).

If you like lets do an average instead (30 mill) high vs (200 mill) null. The ratio is still roughly the same.

Instead of trying to obfuscate the obvious difference in risk / reward lets talk about why you think you should be 100% risk free in null while making 1000% more isk.

And no, choosing to dock because you're afraid of a nuetral is not risk.

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#148 - 2013-07-19 04:05:36 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:
You can make 500 mill an hour in nullsec doing high level complexes and running your PI. Passive isk bounties and loot drops. You will notice that I used an extremely high amount for high sec (70 mill) vs extremely high in null (500 mill) both of which ARE possible).

If you like lets do an average instead (30 mill) high vs (200 mill) null. The ratio is still roughly the same.

Instead of trying to obfuscate the obvious difference in risk / reward lets talk about why you think you should be 100% risk free in null while making 1000% more isk.

And no, choosing to dock because you're afraid of a nuetral is not risk.


Yea, I totally make 30 mil an hour doing incursions in a 4 bil mach. 30 more years and it will pay for itself!
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#149 - 2013-07-19 04:36:44 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:
You can make 500 mill an hour in nullsec doing high level complexes and running your PI. Passive isk bounties and loot drops. You will notice that I used an extremely high amount for high sec (70 mill) vs extremely high in null (500 mill) both of which ARE possible).

If you like lets do an average instead (30 mill) high vs (200 mill) null. The ratio is still roughly the same.

Instead of trying to obfuscate the obvious difference in risk / reward lets talk about why you think you should be 100% risk free in null while making 1000% more isk.

And no, choosing to dock because you're afraid of a nuetral is not risk.


Yea, I totally make 30 mil an hour doing incursions in a 4 bil mach. 30 more years and it will pay for itself!

It would take around 130 hours actually.

The arguments most proposed for calls to nerf high sec are about non interaction, solo ways of making lots of easy isk. How do incursions factor into this? I specifically stated I was not referring to incursions in my earlier post.

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)
Alicia Aishai
Perkone
Caldari State
#150 - 2013-07-19 04:53:11 UTC
The reason why a lot of people stay in High sec is not due to the risk/reward ratio but because those people are risk adverse. This means that if you offer them to double the risk and double the reward, they are not interested, though rationally, the gain would be the same on average.

Everyone has different a different risk adversity. Some people are risk seekers, they are willing to take more risk that reward because they like the thrill. These people are gamblers - they are willing to bet 100 for an average gain of 90 because they have the chance to gain big. This is the principle of casinos.

Some people can be risk neutral, meaning their decision will be based on strict risk / reward balance.

Most people are risk adverse, meaning that even if you offer them TRIPLE the reward for double the risk, they may still not be interested. That's because they are adverse to loss and prefer a smaller guaranteed income to a higher but more volatile income.

That's why the discussion about risk / reward ratio are pointless because it's an individual choice, an individual preference. Low sec / null resident are mostly by nature people who like risk and have a gambling type mentality. They mistakenly believe that makes them "superior" just because the game mechanics tend to favor this behavior.
There is no magic risk / reward ratio that would bring the "carebears" to low sec seeking more reward. Some people are just too risk adverse for that - if you nerf High Sec, they will leave the game rather than taking more risk because they just don't like risk, even if the "carrot" is very good.

As some people rightfully pointed out, Null and Low offer higher reward for most activities. It's not hard to find a WH to null and bring your mining ship there in a most likely empty system. If you stay aligned and pay attention to local and d-scan, risk is almost 0. Yet, virtually none does that.

Personally I spend most of my time in null or low because I make more money there than in high. Yet I understand some people don't want to take the incremental risk and that doesn't make them unworthy people who should be kicked out of EVE or have their gameplay nerfed to oblivion.
neo smith
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#151 - 2013-07-19 04:54:57 UTC  |  Edited by: neo smith
when someone can happily make more isk in high sec than null/low sec... something is not right.

I know for a fact one can make a easy 1-3+b isk a week in high sec. yes I know possible to do that in null as well.

imo.. make al combat missions in high sec anti-faction missions. if you want bounties goto low/null sec for it.[/quote]




so is this all you nulll sec players play for isk ??
and why do you care how much isk some hi'sec player is making and dont know where you got 3-5 bill a week running missions

just play your game let the high sec players play theres
neo smith
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#152 - 2013-07-19 04:57:52 UTC  |  Edited by: neo smith
Sry double post
Alicia Aishai
Perkone
Caldari State
#153 - 2013-07-19 05:10:07 UTC
This guy is complaining that people go to null because it hurts his profits :)

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=3327471#post3327471

Shows at that at least some people don't want to see the Low/Null sec pop go up.

As usual, everyone is just spinning things for their own interest. Pirates wants more targets, explorers/ice miners want less competitions, etc...
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#154 - 2013-07-19 05:50:03 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:
You can make 500 mill an hour in nullsec doing high level complexes and running your PI. Passive isk bounties and loot drops. You will notice that I used an extremely high amount for high sec (70 mill) vs extremely high in null (500 mill) both of which ARE possible).



I noticed that you are making up fake numbers.

Infinity Ziona wrote:
And no, choosing to dock because you're afraid of a nuetral is not risk.


It kinda is given that it has made you dock up and thus stop making isk.

In high sec you can run along happily for as long as you like with as many nuetral in system as it can handle.
CanI haveyourstuff
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#155 - 2013-07-19 06:29:38 UTC  |  Edited by: CanI haveyourstuff
neo smith wrote:
when someone can happily make more isk in high sec than null/low sec... something is not right.

I know for a fact one can make a easy 1-3+b isk a week in high sec. yes I know possible to do that in null as well.

imo.. make al combat missions in high sec anti-faction missions. if you want bounties goto low/null sec for it.



please explain me how is sov null high risk place? SERIOUSLY please explain... or gtfo

in incursions, everyone hase chance to being blown up in hes 5 bil ship.. i've seen it happen quite often - it's more risk than in random null and that is an a fact.

clueless null carebear is clueless, too hard to scan down sites? qq


In deep 0.0 you can go afk for hours and when coming back you only see random npc gate spawn scratching you.. and thats maybe. In 20j radius there is vast nothinfness but blues everywhere... sea of blues who happily carebear like there is no tomorrow without any risk at all.

nowadays noone is arsed enough to roam far away... who wants to spend 5 hours looking for target that SAFELY cloaks or docks up?????????? all you get is lockal smack.. if lucky.

so really just go away or experience eve a bit more before you come here with great ideas.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#156 - 2013-07-19 09:17:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Cipher Jones wrote:
And thats the problem right there. Well, you misrepresentation anyway.

There is more money in every sector of space than there is in Hisec.
Not if you want to shoot people and take their stuff. You know, piracy.

Infinity Ziona wrote:
You can make 500 mill an hour in nullsec doing high level complexes and running your PI.
…in much the same sense as you can (or at least could) make 500 mill an hour in highsec running high-end missions and inventing your T2s.

CanI haveyourstuff wrote:
in incursions, everyone hase chance to being blown up in hes 5 bil ship.. i've seen it happen quite often - it's more risk than in random null and that is an a fact.
No, that's just incompetence, and it runs universe-wide. This means that if the risk exists in high, the same risk exists in null… and null comes with further risks that inherently makes the chances of loss higher.

So no, that is not a fact.
Ace Uoweme
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#157 - 2013-07-19 09:48:57 UTC
Alicia Aishai wrote:
Most people are risk adverse, meaning that even if you offer them TRIPLE the reward for double the risk, they may still not be interested. That's because they are adverse to loss and prefer a smaller guaranteed income to a higher but more volatile income.

That's why the discussion about risk / reward ratio are pointless because it's an individual choice, an individual preference. Low sec / null resident are mostly by nature people who like risk and have a gambling type mentality. They mistakenly believe that makes them "superior" just because the game mechanics tend to favor this behavior.
There is no magic risk / reward ratio that would bring the "carebears" to low sec seeking more reward. Some people are just too risk adverse for that - if you nerf High Sec, they will leave the game rather than taking more risk because they just don't like risk, even if the "carrot" is very good.


Here's a perfect example: if you have billions of ISK worth of well researched BPOs, there is zero incentive to take them down to null or low to set up shop as a manufacturer. In a game where PvP is drop (or destroying) anything, ONLY THE INSANE would accept those risks, since there's no T1 cheap pewpewpew alternative than making 10000000000000001 copies and shipping that down t-h-e-r-e.

That means if you craft (and trade) you're staying in high-sec.

The flaw is the design, and that design is wholesale PvP. Since that's not going to change, high-sec players are never going down to low or null. CCP pushes the issue, people quit the game, as crafting and trade are regarded as PvE activities (even by PvPers who tuck away their own PvE toons safe from harm).

_"In a world of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act." _ ~George Orwell
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#158 - 2013-07-19 09:54:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Ace Uoweme wrote:
The flaw is the design, and that design is wholesale PvP.
No, the flaw is in the mechanics, which provide free and infinite access to facilities in highsec and limited and very costly access to worse facilities in null.

As you say, there are zero incentive to move production out of highsec. That's because that's where the best facilities are. If those facilities were worse, more expensive, and in much lower supply, such an incentive would arise. The BPOs themselves will never really be at risk anyway, unless you screw up completely, so the “wholesale PvP” bit applies the same no matter where you are.

So the design flaw is that the more you invest, the worse your production capability becomes. The PvP-centric design is not even a factor.
Buhhdust Princess
Mind Games.
#159 - 2013-07-19 09:55:05 UTC
Didn't read thread, gunna assume.

"High Security" does not mean "You are Invincible", it means the Police are everywhere, and will assist you against hostiles. However if they kill you first, that's just how it is.

If someone gets shot in London, they still get shot, I'd say that's high security, yet doesn't make you invincible.
Ace Uoweme
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#160 - 2013-07-19 10:07:39 UTC
Buhhdust Princess wrote:
Didn't read thread, gunna assume.

"High Security" does not mean "You are Invincible", it means the Police are everywhere, and will assist you against hostiles. However if they kill you first, that's just how it is.

If someone gets shot in London, they still get shot, I'd say that's high security, yet doesn't make you invincible.


Unlike London, EvE doesn't have courts to properly prosecute (and execute) felons. And people don't hire mercs to "get even" in a lawful society (as that is P2W).

_"In a world of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act." _ ~George Orwell