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[Odyssey 1.1] Heavy Assault Cruisers

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Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#361 - 2013-07-18 16:49:09 UTC
Michael Harari wrote:
Marcel Devereux wrote:
Rise, another thing to consider with your sentry love is the skill requirements. For a viable Isthar, you need lights+mediums, heavies, and sentries. That is a hell of a lot of training for the main weapon system. No other HAC has this intense training. It is over 3x the required skill points over turret based weapon systems in order to use all three classes of T2 drones. Please give us more drone loving bonuses.


You can also run a perfectly good ishtar with hac 1

Only because it has ****** T2 bonuses.

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#362 - 2013-07-18 16:49:09 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
VAGABOND - Like with the Stabber, we are rolling the max velocity bonus into the base stats...
Mobility (max velocity...): 290(+51)

Shouldn't it be ~299 m/s (technically 298.75)?
239 * 1.25 = 298.75
You are actually nerfing the Vagabond's speed somewhat with this change.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Phoenix Jones
Small-Arms Fire
#363 - 2013-07-18 16:49:57 UTC
Temuken Radzu wrote:
I believe the Ishtar is should have something unique for being T2, right now it has the same drone bonuses as the Dominix. I would like to change te tracking/optimal range bonus for this:
I also made the Ishtar lose a turret hardpoint

ISHTAR -
Role Bonus: 50% reduction in MicroWarpdrive signature radius penalty

Gallente Cruiser Bonuses:
5 km bonus to Drone operation range per level
10% bonus to drone hitpoints and Damage

Heavy Assault Cruiser Bonuses:
+5 drone bandwitch and 1 extra drone controlled per lv
50 m3 extra Drone Bay per level

Slot layout: 4H(-1), 5M, 5L; 3 turrets(+1), 0 launchers
Fittings: 700 PWG, 285 CPU
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 1400(-6) / 1600(-18) / 2300(+191)
Capacitor (amount) : 1300(+175)
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 185(-6) / .52 / 11700000 / 8.43s
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 125 / 125
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 60km / 294 / 7
Sensor strength: 16 Magnetometric
Signature radius: 145

The extra drone that is controlled can either be used for a extra group of light drones at Heavy Assault Cruiser V or for a extra Sentry or Heavy drone.
This will make the Ishtar a true T2 ship i believe.


10 dps drones would not be sane. 5 dps drones + 5 Utility/Ewar drones though.. now that is something to consider.

+10 Drone bandwidth and 1 extra combat Utility Drone or Electronic Warfare Drone per level.

Yaay!!!!
David Kir
Hotbirds
#364 - 2013-07-18 16:50:09 UTC
Butzewutze wrote:
I am not to impressed by the changes to be honest. Why doesnt the zealot have a dronebay but the muninn gets one? Why does the muninn get a lowslot instead of a med (that would truly beeing handy on that ship). Why does the Vagabond get a shieldboosting bonus with only 4 mediumslots? MWD + point -> 2 slot loltank?


Because the Zealot is almost perfect as it is, and its role does not require a drone bay.

Friends are like cows: if you eat them, they die.
Michael Harari
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
#365 - 2013-07-18 16:50:23 UTC
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
Michael Harari wrote:
Marcel Devereux wrote:
Rise, another thing to consider with your sentry love is the skill requirements. For a viable Isthar, you need lights+mediums, heavies, and sentries. That is a hell of a lot of training for the main weapon system. No other HAC has this intense training. It is over 3x the required skill points over turret based weapon systems in order to use all three classes of T2 drones. Please give us more drone loving bonuses.


You can also run a perfectly good ishtar with hac 1

Only because it has ****** T2 bonuses.


Because its gallente cruiser bonuses are ridiculous
Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#366 - 2013-07-18 16:52:01 UTC
Michael Harari wrote:
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
Michael Harari wrote:
Marcel Devereux wrote:
Rise, another thing to consider with your sentry love is the skill requirements. For a viable Isthar, you need lights+mediums, heavies, and sentries. That is a hell of a lot of training for the main weapon system. No other HAC has this intense training. It is over 3x the required skill points over turret based weapon systems in order to use all three classes of T2 drones. Please give us more drone loving bonuses.


You can also run a perfectly good ishtar with hac 1

Only because it has ****** T2 bonuses.


Because its gallente cruiser bonuses are ridiculous

You are right a 10% optimal an tracking bonus has no place on a cruiser.

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
Knoppaz
distress signals
#367 - 2013-07-18 16:52:18 UTC
..a shield boost bonus for the Vaga?
..on a 6/4/5 layout?
..really?
Roll

Knoppaz / distressSIGNALS http://distresssignals.tumblr.com

a capsuleer's way to insanity
Maximus Andendare
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
#368 - 2013-07-18 16:52:20 UTC
Michael Harari wrote:
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
Michael Harari wrote:
Marcel Devereux wrote:
Rise, another thing to consider with your sentry love is the skill requirements. For a viable Isthar, you need lights+mediums, heavies, and sentries. That is a hell of a lot of training for the main weapon system. No other HAC has this intense training. It is over 3x the required skill points over turret based weapon systems in order to use all three classes of T2 drones. Please give us more drone loving bonuses.


You can also run a perfectly good ishtar with hac 1

Only because it has ****** T2 bonuses.


Because its gallente cruiser bonuses are ridiculous
If by "ridiculous" you mean normal.

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Johan March
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#369 - 2013-07-18 16:55:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Johan March
Looks good at first glance to me. Some Recommendations:

Bonus all the missile ships to include rapid lights

Don't nerf the Deimos' HP as much as you did. As originally proposed, the Deimos seems slated to be a rail / shield shield role only. I'd kill the MWD capacitor bonus for a general cap recharge bonus or buff capacitor recharge on its own and add a tracking bonus. A Gallente HAC should be able to blaster brawl if we want it to.

Get rid of the drone bay bonus for the Ishtar and give it it's maximum drone bay at the outset. The drone bay bonus is like the speed bonus that the Vagabond has, and will now be replaced, with these changes.

I'm also guessing that an ASB fit Vagabond is going to be at least somewhat overpowered.

Also, despite my in-game opponents flying them often, I concur that the Munin needs some more targeting range. Perhaps 60?
Grath Telkin
Amok.
Goonswarm Federation
#370 - 2013-07-18 16:58:56 UTC
So you guys have been on this active tank kick and I like it a lot, and this is a place I am massively confused:

The Sac.



You make it plainly obvious that its cap recharge bonus is somewhat out of place and yet do nothing to lend to the common fitting of the dual rep armor sac. If you were to give it that sweet resist bonus and a 5-7.5% boost to armor reps as well I think you'd put that ship in a fairly nice place for the heavy tackle role you want it to have.

Nobody cares about its drone bay, though the PG boost is super nice, I would strongly urge that you get rid of that 5% cap recharge bonus for an armor rep bonus and then it would be come a fairly strong hac for what people like to do with it.

Malcanis - Without drone assign, the slowcat doctrine will wither and die.
MeBiatch
GRR GOONS
#371 - 2013-07-18 17:02:29 UTC
Butzewutze wrote:
I am not to impressed by the changes to be honest. Why doesnt the zealot have a dronebay but the muninn gets one? Why does the muninn get a lowslot instead of a med (that would truly beeing handy on that ship). Why does the Vagabond get a shieldboosting bonus with only 4 mediumslots? MWD + point -> 2 slot loltank?

Quote:
afterburner variations that are already very strong


About what setups are you talking? I am curious.


ahacs

There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... CCP Goliath wrote:

Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.
MeBiatch
GRR GOONS
#372 - 2013-07-18 17:03:52 UTC
Grath Telkin wrote:
So you guys have been on this active tank kick and I like it a lot, and this is a place I am massively confused:

The Sac.



You make it plainly obvious that its cap recharge bonus is somewhat out of place and yet do nothing to lend to the common fitting of the dual rep armor sac. If you were to give it that sweet resist bonus and a 5-7.5% boost to armor reps as well I think you'd put that ship in a fairly nice place for the heavy tackle role you want it to have.

Nobody cares about its drone bay, though the PG boost is super nice, I would strongly urge that you get rid of that 5% cap recharge bonus for an armor rep bonus and then it would be come a fairly strong hac for what people like to do with it.


that or a em missile bonus so it could be usefull for fleets.

ahac sac fleets would be nice.

There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... CCP Goliath wrote:

Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.
Pesadel0
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#373 - 2013-07-18 17:05:11 UTC
MeBiatch wrote:
Butzewutze wrote:
I am not to impressed by the changes to be honest. Why doesnt the zealot have a dronebay but the muninn gets one? Why does the muninn get a lowslot instead of a med (that would truly beeing handy on that ship). Why does the Vagabond get a shieldboosting bonus with only 4 mediumslots? MWD + point -> 2 slot loltank?

Quote:
afterburner variations that are already very strong


About what setups are you talking? I am curious.


ahacs


Ahacs you know, were minmatars go sfi.
Chris Winter
Bene Gesserit ChapterHouse
The Curatores Veritatis Auxiliary
#374 - 2013-07-18 17:05:39 UTC
Where's the Minmatar missile HAC?
muhadin
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#375 - 2013-07-18 17:08:12 UTC
As a long range platform the munin would benefit from a 4th mid slot instead of a 6th lowslot. With the nerf to tracking enhancers, the extra mid allows for another sebo or another tracking computer. While on the otherhand actually being about get somewhat of a tank thats bigger than a piece of paper.

"Love the Life you Live, Live the Life you Love"
MeBiatch
GRR GOONS
#376 - 2013-07-18 17:09:07 UTC
muhadin wrote:
As a long range platform the munin would benefit from a 4th mid slot instead of a 6th lowslot. With the nerf to tracking enhancers, the extra mid allows for another sebo or another tracking computer. While on the otherhand actually being about get somewhat of a tank thats bigger than a piece of paper.


its called a sig amp eh.

There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... CCP Goliath wrote:

Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.
Ersahi Kir
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#377 - 2013-07-18 17:12:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Ersahi Kir
I would like to see a real bonus for the ishtar instead of +50 m3 of drones a level. Just give it a 375 m3 like dedicated drone carriers should have and give it a drone velocity bonus or something. The +5 km max range is weak, but at least it's a bonus.

I would also like to see another low on the ishtar. With the addition of drone damage modules the ishtar became a shield ship, I'd like to see more lows so it could be an armor tanked ship and still fit a couple drone damage modules.

The Sacrilege is also a sad. I don't know what to do to make it not suck, the base design seems off. A slow short ranged armor missile brawler just seems to have an off flavor.
Phoenix Jones
Small-Arms Fire
#378 - 2013-07-18 17:13:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Phoenix Jones
Heck I would have done this for all drone boats

Drone Support Bays. Able to fit Combat Utility Drones, Electronic Warfare drones and Logistic Drones. Cannot hold Combat Drones.

For example. The Ishtar would get the following.

Ishtar.

Stats:
Combat Drone Bay Bandwidth 125
Combat Drone Bay Size 125
Utility Drone Bay Bandwidth 75
Utility Drone Bay Size. 75

Max amount of Combat Drones that can be launched, 5
Max amount of Utility/EWAR/LOGI drones able to be launched, 5

Total number of drones that can be launched, 10 (5 combat drones, 5 Utility/ewar/logi drones). (the amount of Ewar/Utility/Logi drones launch-able can be balanced or reduced as needed dependent on the ship size).


Gallente Cruiser Skill Bonus:
10% bonus to drone tracking and optimal range(was 5% bonus to Medium Hybrid Turret damage)
10% bonus to drone hitpoints and Damage

Heavy Assault Cruiser Bonuses:
5 km bonus to Drone operation range per level
50 m3 extra Drone Bays (Utility Drone Bay and Combat Drone Bay) per level

Everybody would get to use the extra ewar drones that Nobody uses (such as the Sensor Dampening Drones, Target Painting Drones, Webifier Drones, Tracking Disruptor Drones, Energy Neutralizing Drones).

Heck I would do this to Every Ship, balance out those that have drone bays, move all those ewar drones nobody uses to a specific bay that specific ships can have an actual use for, and be able to use them all. You would at least make the Ishtar a definite differentiating type of droneboat.

Can even apply that to the Myrmidon, Vexors, Dominix, Proteus, Prophecy, Armageddon, Arbirator, etc. Can balance out the extra utility dronebay and allow more drone based moves and combat.

There ya go, Ishtar fixed and made all those useless drones useful now.

Yaay!!!!
Leskit
Pure Victory
#379 - 2013-07-18 17:14:44 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
I'll look at the Ishtar fitting. To me it seems like one of the stronger HACs already and it gained a bonus to damage projection and application so I didn't see a need to give it even more buffs. I don't think of it as a ship that ought to be running medium sized mods in all its high slots. All that said, I'll have another look.


it really DESPERATELY needs CPU. drone modules eat up CPU worse than any other damage mod or ewar, it's ridiculous. Also, having a "bonus" just to give it enough drones to use is...silly/ridiculous. Arrowswap drone bay amount for heavy drone MWD speed bonus per level, and give it base 375 m3 drone bay. That should make it more useful against cruisers without having to resort to medium drones.

Two Step wrote:
Sac should get some sort of scram/disrutper/web range/strength bonus instead of the mostly useless cap bonus.

CCP Rise wrote:
While the Sacrilege didn't gain bonuses or slot changes, the added PG and added drone bay push it over the edge I think it would become a solid heavy brawler with a lot of utility. I spent some time trying to find a 4th bonus that fits better than the cap recharge bonus but it's actually very difficult. I think keeping its character as a really sturdy bruiser seems more interesting than anything else I've come across, but I'll keep watching feedback on this. Its really important to me that this both useful and fun.

The drone bay was much welcome! As long as the PG boost allows it to fit a 1600mm plate+hams+mwd+ medium neut, then it can stay. Otherwise it really wants a 6th low slot.
The cap bonus is really nice for active tanking, but It really needs the 6th if you active tank it.
Drunken Bum
#380 - 2013-07-18 17:15:39 UTC
Grath Telkin wrote:
So you guys have been on this active tank kick and I like it a lot, and this is a place I am massively confused:

The Sac.



You make it plainly obvious that its cap recharge bonus is somewhat out of place and yet do nothing to lend to the common fitting of the dual rep armor sac. If you were to give it that sweet resist bonus and a 5-7.5% boost to armor reps as well I think you'd put that ship in a fairly nice place for the heavy tackle role you want it to have.

Nobody cares about its drone bay, though the PG boost is super nice, I would strongly urge that you get rid of that 5% cap recharge bonus for an armor rep bonus and then it would be come a fairly strong hac for what people like to do with it.

Two tanking bonuses? Come on now lets not be silly. I for one am stoked for the sac.

I love sac.

Sac.

After the patch we're giving the market some gentle supply restriction, like tying one wrist to the bedpost loosely with soft silk rope. Just enough to make things a bit more exciting for the market, not enough to make a safeword necessary.  -Fozzie