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Fuel pellets, wh dwellers and PI - a new logistics problem coming ?
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Sebero Sinak
Doomheim
#1 - 2011-11-09 21:40:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Sebero Sinak
From what i've seen the pos fuel pellets will be made at stations and in ammo arrays....that means those pilots that do PI for their wh pos fuel but haven't trained production and manufacturing are going to get a bit of a shaft now i believe.

For you to use the PI resources as fuel you will have to carry them thru a wormhole to a station, process them into fuel pellets and then carry them back to your wormhole pos.

Before we start screaming about how abused we are - has anyone heard what the ammo array route of making fuel pellets will be like ?........ Will it be similar to any other manufacturing where you need a dedicated toon to train all the skills ? OR

Will making fuel pellets in arrays at pos be "lite" manufacturing ? similar to how PI tier's are "lite" manufacturing.


edit - Have read the good responses, thank you . So i will

A, swap the corp hanger for component assembly array - maybe get the ammo array too

B, the Fuel pellet BP won't need ME and PE like other bp's to be useful , even if there is some waste it's not a game breaker

C, make the Fuel pellets at the pos in wh

if that's right , like one poster said do that and go on about business
Mad Shopper
Mad Industrial Consortium
#2 - 2011-11-09 21:52:47 UTC
An ammo array is a structure you can put at your pos. No specific skills are required to use it, but production efficiency to 4 or 5 would help keep costs down. The array itself has low CPU and PPG requirements so adding one to your pos shouldn't be a problem.

Also I think they will allow them to be built in component arrays too. Since this array gives the highest storage space for CPU/PG I bet many WH dwellers already have one.
Emperor Salazar
Remote Soviet Industries
Insidious Empire
#3 - 2011-11-09 21:53:58 UTC
Sebero Sinak wrote:
From what i've seen the pos fuel pellets will be made at stations and in ammo arrays....that means those pilots that do PI for their wh pos fuel but haven't trained production and manufacturing are going to get a bit of a shaft now i believe.

For you to use the PI resources as fuel you will have to carry them thru a wormhole to a station, process them into fuel pellets and then carry them back to your wormhole pos.

Before we start screaming about how abused we are - has anyone heard what the ammo array route of making fuel pellets will be like ?........ Will it be similar to any other manufacturing where you need a dedicated toon to train all the skills ? OR

Will making fuel pellets in arrays at pos be "lite" manufacturing ? similar to how PI tier's are "lite" manufacturing.


What the hell are you trying to say?

Making fuel pellets will involve materials (P4 stuff you get from planets) and a bpo/bpc. Skill requirements will be negligible, though yes, as always, those with better skills will have an advantage. Go figure.

Ammo arrays have a .75 build time modifier and 5 build slots. Building at your POS will actually be more effective than a station.

Stop theorycrafting without full knowledge of the situation.
mxzf
Shovel Bros
#4 - 2011-11-09 21:54:18 UTC
Buy and anchor Ammo Assembly Array for 4M
Buy POS Pellet BPO for a small amount of ISK
Train Industry 1
Build Fuel Pellets

There shouldn't be any ME or Production Efficiency needed on the POS Fuel Pellets.
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat
Working Stiffs
#5 - 2011-11-09 22:01:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Tau Cabalander
Big problem with ammo arrays is their capacity is only 150,000 m3. I hope that is adjusted (buff for bombs).
Joshua Aivoras
Tech IV Industries
#6 - 2011-11-09 22:03:51 UTC
There also allowing them to be built in component assembly arrays, which you should use for storage anyway because they use less resources than a corp hangar.

After aquiring the Block Bpo, it will basically be business as usual, get PI from planets, import ice/water/ozone, make blocks.

Overall tower fuel use is going down, not to mention you can research the block bpo to furthur reduce waste. Can't wait.

95% of the players are loving EVE, the other 5%? On the forums.
mxzf
Shovel Bros
#7 - 2011-11-09 22:12:04 UTC  |  Edited by: mxzf
Joshua Aivoras wrote:
There also allowing them to be built in component assembly arrays, which you should use for storage anyway because they use less resources than a corp hangar.

After aquiring the Block Bpo, it will basically be business as usual, get PI from planets, import ice/water/ozone, make blocks.

Overall tower fuel use is going down, not to mention you can research the block bpo to furthur reduce waste. Can't wait.


I highly doubt you'll be able to research Fuel BPOs. I completely expect all materials to be extra materials and not affected by ME, the same as POS mods are.

Edit: To clarify, you'll be able to research either way, but I expect any research to have no effect on materials required.
Ariane VoxDei
#8 - 2011-11-09 22:30:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Ariane VoxDei
There is a bit of a logistic headache coming, but not like OP seems to think.

Either you make the fuel locally (at the pos) = just haul everything there like before = no saving, just wasting production hours to churn out the needed fuel.
Or you buy/transport the pellets from outside.

If from outside, the producers get YOUR logistic headache, collecting 8 different resources. Worst of which are the, by comparison, bulky amounts of ice products.
Which are a ****** pain in the arse to move around. Which also was part the reason for a derogatory statement i posted about it in a different context. It will be a horrible (and underpaid bottomfeeder) activity to manufacture those for others.

TBH this whole thing is not well thought through. There is some simplicity for the pos-feeders (some call it dumbing down), but no benefits what so ever, only downsides, if you decide to produce it locally (or you choose to become a blockproducer).
Ariane VoxDei
#9 - 2011-11-09 22:37:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Ariane VoxDei
mxzf wrote:
I highly doubt you'll be able to research Fuel BPOs. I completely expect all materials to be extra materials and not affected by ME, the same as POS mods are.

Check the threadnought and stop spreading misinformation. There are dev statements to the effect that there is no reason to not make them ME-researchable and no hint that they will be "loss free".
Dunno where you guys keep getting those lossless illusions, the pos and posmods blueprints are not lossless either, and have 10% base waste.
Jenn Makanen
Doomheim
#10 - 2011-11-09 22:52:15 UTC
suggestion right now is 5% waste. ME 7 to remove all but 2 isotope waste. 20 to remove it all
Leonard Dukes
Arbitrage Holdings Corporation
#11 - 2011-11-09 23:03:13 UTC
CCP Greyscale wrote:


We're going to allow component assembly arrays to build fuel blocks too because why not.

[...]

You'll be able to reprocess fuel blocks in the normal way, getting back all the materials etc.
Currently they're configured to be researchable, with fairly short durations. I'm seeing some questions about this here - is there a strong reason why these need to be unresearchable? I don't have an industry designer on hand right now or I'd ask them :)


Source
Brock Nelson
#12 - 2011-11-09 23:16:40 UTC
As I have previously mentioned in a different thread, Ammo (or Component) Assembly Array doesn't take up much CPU/Power, so you might as well throw one up at the Tower and the time bonus is an added benefit.

Signature removed, CCP Phantom
Apollo Gabriel
Kill'em all. Let Bob sort'em out.
Ushra'Khan
#13 - 2011-11-10 03:47:24 UTC
I think the idea was VERY well thought out. W-space however was not a major factor in it. For NON-w-space people this idea is great, especially if you're fueling a few POS, you just load and go.

For those of you in W-space if you dont have industry, well you should have had to before.

We make a LOT of ******* isk, we can afford it.
Always ... Never ... Forget to check your references.   Peace out Zulu! Hope you land well!
Derath Ellecon
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#14 - 2011-11-10 03:58:39 UTC
Basically for WH pos it will be the same, as far as what you have to haul in or out. You will just have the extra step of combining it to make fuel blocks in the appropriate array. Someone annoying but I will take that in exchange for anchoring times.

Now just yank off the 75% cap on refining arrays and I will really be happy.
Tanya Powers
Doomheim
#15 - 2011-11-10 19:01:41 UTC
Sebero Sinak wrote:
For you to use the PI resources as fuel you will have to carry them thru a wormhole to a station, process them into fuel pellets and then carry them back to your wormhole pos.


Wh PI is really awesome, all you have to do is sell it in high sec and buy pellets, most prob you'll win isk on the process, not like in high sec.
Mal Nina
The Red Circle Inc.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#16 - 2011-11-11 00:39:55 UTC
This is great news, and that from a WH dweller who does PI, and has to fuel the pos. no more trying to figure out what the optimal fuel levels are for each POS... no more feeding fuel types in one at a time, now just drag and drop... whallah, pos is full. Worth having to make pellets, logs, or boulders.

I have to drag ice up anyway, no big deal. Thankyou, now while you are at it... fix my rorq compression so I just drag and drop the ores in and don't have to have all the stupid amounts memorized...some thing like your new customs offices. Ore hold = input on the left, then in the middle four circles where I start up whatever compression I am doing and to the right my cargo hold for output. compression runs for continious 1 minute cycles so long as there is enough ore in the hold.

As for offlining and onlining... finally my polymer arrays will not take 20 minutes to change out... Hallaluja! however, make them easier and allow me to just drag and drop! of course it would be the best of all worlds if I did not need to offline and online to change out reactions!.....
Bloody Wench
#17 - 2011-11-11 22:21:06 UTC
Honestly don't see it being a big deal. Assuming ofcourse that the production speed is far in excess of the consumption speed so that I don't have to have the manufacturing array online all the time.

If it's 2-7 days run time to produce a months worth of fuel, then who cares.

[u]**Shepard Wong Ogeko wrote: **[/u]  CCP should not only make local delayed in highsec, but they should also require one be undocked to use it. Then, even the local spammers have some skin in the game. Support a High Resolution Texture Pack
Scrapyard Bob
EVE University
Ivy League
#18 - 2011-11-11 22:50:19 UTC
Bloody Wench wrote:
Honestly don't see it being a big deal. Assuming ofcourse that the production speed is far in excess of the consumption speed so that I don't have to have the manufacturing array online all the time.

If it's 2-7 days run time to produce a months worth of fuel, then who cares.


Best estimate is about 1.31 days w/ Industry V and a POS array (ammo or component) and PE 10-15 to make 30.5 days of large tower fuel.

732 batches need (each batch produces 40 pellets), 5 minutes base time per batch.
PE 15 is about 248 seconds/batch.
Industry V drops that another 20% to 207 sec
POS array drops that by 0.75, so about 155 sec per batch.

155 sec x 732 batches = 31.5 hours (1.31 days)

And the implant could drop that another few percent.
Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
#19 - 2011-11-12 16:44:17 UTC
Any discussion from CCP about pre-seeding the BPO's?
Derath Ellecon
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#20 - 2011-11-12 18:40:53 UTC
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
Any discussion from CCP about pre-seeding the BPO's?



My understanding is that there will not be any pre-seeding of the BP's. Instead the changover will occur during a future downtime patch after the winter expansion to allow everyone to make the fuel.