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New tier 3 battlecruisers have very low tank
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Ishtanchuk Fazmarai
#21 - 2011-11-09 22:39:49 UTC
They are Battlecruisers. They are ingame to bring big guns against enemy BS for a fraction of a BS cost, to the price of not having BS protection.

It's the first ship class in EVE to live to its real navy counterparts.

Roses are red / Violets are blue / I am an Alpha / And so it's you
Hans Jagerblitzen
Ice Fire Warriors
#22 - 2011-11-09 22:40:55 UTC
Zagam wrote:

There is absolutely no reason to have both tank and gank on a single hull.

You must have a weakness, and a strength.


Ever flown an Abaddon? Harbinger? Retribution? Plated Hurricane? Dual-rep Fleet Stabber? A Maelstrom?

Lots of ships have both tank and gank. Usually though, having both comes at the cost of speed, or lack of ewar, or lack of tackle. So no, some fits don't have to choose between the two. Most though, end up on a spectrum somewhere though, where increasing one decreases the other.

These tier 3 BC's though, are definitley not supposed to have tanks.

Think of them like larger sized destroyers - relatively weak hitpoint wise, but very hard hitting. Sniper HAC's are also a good analogy - the Tornado is similar to a Muninn in that it'll be weak and vulnerable to tackle and must kite its prey at range.

Anyone expecting to do PvE in these will be mostly disappointed, they are not meant to solo that kind of abuse. They are meant to be fielded in gangs amongst escort ships that can shred tackling frigates and proper logistical support. They are PvP in design, and will only be useful with a good amount of teamwork. Definitely not solo boats.

Bringing along a couple of destroyers will very much help these ship defend themselves from the small stuff.

As others have said, these are working as intended, I wouldn't expect any major adjustments.


CPM0 Chairman / CSM7 Vice Secretary
Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
#23 - 2011-11-09 22:42:15 UTC
Corina Jarr wrote:
These ships are not meant for fighting frigs, or even cruisers. They certainly are not meant to fly without support.




Hence the destroyers' boost (or removal of pen).

The idea is, the Tier 3 BC does the damage, the dessie or frigs keep the smaller ships off.

Kind of like a Penn & Teller act.




Bring back DEEEEP Space!
Jenshae Chiroptera
#24 - 2011-11-09 22:45:19 UTC
I think they also need a penalty to tracking and webs or something to ensure that they can only hit BC/BS+

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Diosas
Doomheim
#25 - 2011-11-09 22:48:50 UTC
Yes they are supposed to, they are pretty much gang gank ships. They are not really for solo purposes.
Name Family Name
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#26 - 2011-11-09 22:55:23 UTC
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote:
They are Battlecruisers. They are ingame to bring big guns against enemy BS for a fraction of a BS cost, to the price of not having BS protection.

It's the first ship class in EVE to live to its real navy counterparts.



looking at the blueprints, they're projected to be around 50 mill, using 8 big guns, so around the price of a Tier 1 BS.

Other than rig costs, there's not much of a difference betweeen a Tier 1 BS and a Tier 3 BC - not exactly a fraction of the price.
Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
#27 - 2011-11-09 22:56:08 UTC
7.63/10.

Deducted points for not enough rage.

Accidentally The Whole Frigate - For-newbies blog (currently on pause)
Jace Errata
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#28 - 2011-11-09 23:00:04 UTC
Once more for Great Justice:

Working as intended.

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Ishtanchuk Fazmarai
#29 - 2011-11-09 23:02:05 UTC
Name Family Name wrote:
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote:
They are Battlecruisers. They are ingame to bring big guns against enemy BS for a fraction of a BS cost, to the price of not having BS protection.

It's the first ship class in EVE to live to its real navy counterparts.



looking at the blueprints, they're projected to be around 50 mill, using 8 big guns, so around the price of a Tier 1 BS.

Other than rig costs, there's not much of a difference betweeen a Tier 1 BS and a Tier 3 BC - not exactly a fraction of the price.



What maths are you doing? A BC T3 haves the same guns (check), a cheaper tank and a cheaper hull plus cheaper rigs.

Roses are red / Violets are blue / I am an Alpha / And so it's you
Zions Child
Higashikata Industries
#30 - 2011-11-09 23:03:53 UTC
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Alara IonStorm
#31 - 2011-11-09 23:18:55 UTC
Roime wrote:
It is possible that these posters have someone to help them to get past the difficult EvE login screen


That issue is being addressed with the new Launcher.
Name Family Name
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#32 - 2011-11-10 00:07:21 UTC
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote:
Name Family Name wrote:
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote:
They are Battlecruisers. They are ingame to bring big guns against enemy BS for a fraction of a BS cost, to the price of not having BS protection.

It's the first ship class in EVE to live to its real navy counterparts.



looking at the blueprints, they're projected to be around 50 mill, using 8 big guns, so around the price of a Tier 1 BS.

Other than rig costs, there's not much of a difference betweeen a Tier 1 BS and a Tier 3 BC - not exactly a fraction of the price.



What maths are you doing? A BC T3 haves the same guns (check), a cheaper tank and a cheaper hull plus cheaper rigs.



The tank is cheaper, but also far lower, leaving the same EHP/ISK. Hull is approx 3-5 mill less, which is about the cost of one gun.

So it boils down to rig costs. Of course Tier 3 BS will vastly outmaneuver Tier 1 BS, so they will always get away as opposed to Tier 1 BS. Anyway - far from "a fraction of the price".
Frost Mistress
Angel Heart Ammo Co.
#33 - 2011-11-10 09:48:56 UTC
Name Family Name wrote:
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote:
Name Family Name wrote:
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote:
They are Battlecruisers. They are ingame to bring big guns against enemy BS for a fraction of a BS cost, to the price of not having BS protection.

It's the first ship class in EVE to live to its real navy counterparts.



looking at the blueprints, they're projected to be around 50 mill, using 8 big guns, so around the price of a Tier 1 BS.

Other than rig costs, there's not much of a difference betweeen a Tier 1 BS and a Tier 3 BC - not exactly a fraction of the price.



What maths are you doing? A BC T3 haves the same guns (check), a cheaper tank and a cheaper hull plus cheaper rigs.



The tank is cheaper, but also far lower, leaving the same EHP/ISK. Hull is approx 3-5 mill less, which is about the cost of one gun.

So it boils down to rig costs. Of course Tier 3 BS will vastly outmaneuver Tier 1 BS, so they will always get away as opposed to Tier 1 BS. Anyway - far from "a fraction of the price".



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Anny Jackson
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#34 - 2011-11-10 10:30:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Anny Jackson
Zagam wrote:

You have never PvPed, have you? And somehow, I don't think you've ever left hisec either...

In PvP, you generally have to choose between gank and tank. You can tank to no end (i.e.: you are Drake bait), and can't do jack for gank... or you can gank very well, and die in a fire the moment you get primaried.

There is absolutely no reason to have both tank and gank on a single hull.

You must have a weakness, and a strength.



And what about your pvp? I mean if you do some you'd see that out of 4 tier 3 BCs only Tornado has future as a damager for drake gangs. Naga is useles - as a close range damager it has no chances vs any BS (3-4 times less ehp with the same dps sucks). Gallente ship is crap because it's gallente, and amarr isn't great on same reason as Naga.
Elistea
BLUE Regiment.
#35 - 2011-11-10 10:41:25 UTC
lexa21 wrote:
Short: If You think that new battlecruisers have REALLY LOW effective hit points and tank please type something like agree or signed as an answer to this topic.

Long: I was on test server few days ago. I saw new battlecruisers. They have a problems.
1st no chance to take of any frigate in disruptor range.
2nd they have no shields\armor\structure or resources to change this situation. I tried active and passive tank but in first situation there were no cap regeneration to fit actual hp regeneration (300 ehp/sec on faction npc without ab is the top situation on t2 modules) in second there is no chance to fit it better than cruiser with big pen... guns.In fact there were no pg and cap to fit dual armor rep, no cap for stable large shield booster work, no base hp and pg for good passive tank.

Ok. Weakness against small ships is a payment for great dps. But low tank make those ships useless in pve and their only role in pvp would be suicide impossible missions (except minmatars one).

This is my point of view and i want CCP knows if i`m not alone. Thks for reading.


*Facepalm*
Raven Ether
Doomheim
#36 - 2011-11-10 11:27:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Raven Ether
Agreed. Even a "glass cannon" needs to last so it can actually fire said cannon. They should at least be somewhat close to tier 1 battlecruiser hp.

edit: love the trolls, their tears are so tasty.
Fon Revedhort
Monks of War
#37 - 2011-11-10 16:36:22 UTC
As far as I see you can easily overtank it with 1600mm RT plate, DC, 2 eanms plus 3 trimarks - and that's a crapload of EHP.

"Being supporters of free speech and free and open [CSM] elections... we removed Fon Revedhort from eligibility". CCP, April 2013.
Tanya Powers
Doomheim
#38 - 2011-11-10 17:36:40 UTC
Corina Jarr wrote:
They certainly are not meant to fly without support.


Except Tornado and his generous mid slots for buffer seems everything else is really paper thin, couldn't keep alive any Naga in fleet fight (on SISI), since I was in my fake Basilisk Talos or Oracle weren't my primary concern but the Tornado was clearly the easiest for reps.

Maybe just a matter of guys fitting but the Tornado with arty or 800 was clearly cake to remote unless of course you have more than 5 or 6 bc's/bs's shooting at.

CCP gime some sp on SISI please, I'd like to test the new Oneiros and see if it became really interesting for gang fleets Ugh
Kuhn Arashi
State War Academy
Caldari State
#39 - 2011-11-11 00:17:21 UTC
Should stop trying to compare these ships to their similar hulls.
They are very niche ships. Not meant to compete with things equal to their size or smaller.

Infact, the biggest and most immediate role I see for these ships (aside from suidice ganking)
Is welping capital ships.

Supercaps already had troubles against the hurricane fleets and now we're getting faster, more ganktastical
Battlecruisers while the supercaps are getting nerfed to be able to be even less effective against them.

And inline with rock - paper - scissors of eve, battleships and hac fleets, and normal BC's will tear them up.
You know, those mythical support fleets that supercaps are supposed to need with them.
Raven Ether
Doomheim
#40 - 2011-11-11 11:34:10 UTC
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote:
They are Battlecruisers. They are ingame to bring big guns against enemy BS for a fraction of a BS cost, to the price of not having BS protection.





Right now they look like they will cost almost as much or more than tier 1 battleships.



Sure, just a fraction of the cost.



Those fantastic models have been thrown to the garbage bin with that lame "niche" role.