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What people call transversal velocity is actually angular velocity
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#21 - 2013-07-17 02:08:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Mara Rinn wrote:
Labels, Tippia! The purple and red straight arrows are traversal velocity, the blue and green curved ones are angular velocity. Is that diagram part of a blog post?

It's some ancient junk I had lying around since the late 'aughties, when the same question came up. I think I explained what was what in a forum post that accompanied it.

Also, pff! The red and purple arrows (and text) talk about vt, the green and blue ones about va, so obviously it's transversal and angular velocity, respectively. P
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#22 - 2013-07-17 02:22:02 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Also, pff! The red and purple arrows (and text) talk about vt, the green and blue ones about va, so obviously it's transversal and angular velocity, respectively. P


Obviously!

Day 0 Advice for New Players
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#23 - 2013-07-17 02:38:21 UTC
Incidentally, this is also why in (real) orbital mechanics, you have to slow down in order catch up with an object that is orbiting faster than you do… P
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#24 - 2013-07-17 06:15:51 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Its just as difficult to hit a ship at zero velocity while orbiting as it is to hit an object orbiting at speed while you are stationary.

Of course, since the relative motion is the same. Also, this.

Stand in the middle of a room, get a person to point their arm at you you while walking in a circle. Likewise point your arm at them. If all things are equal your arm and theirs should have roughly the same traversal in degrees of movement.

Why then does the person moving have close to zero degrees while youe own arm has a full 360 degrees.

Answer - EvE physics / math / geometry are ******** and therefore any discussion of EvE physics relative to real life is pointless. We can call transversal / angular velocity interchangably because theyre just junk.

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#25 - 2013-07-17 06:23:14 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Why then does the person moving have close to zero degrees while youe own arm has a full 360 degrees.
Because their arms are tied to the respective person's frame of reference. In EVE, guns are not.

Neither the maths nor the geography is ******** — they just don't use the frames of reference you're expecting. As a result, the relative motion between the two points is the same.

Quote:
We can call transversal / angular velocity interchangably because theyre just junk.
No we can't, because they measure completely different things.
Arduemont
Rotten Legion
#26 - 2013-07-17 06:45:33 UTC
You should feel bad about this thread.

"In the age of information, ignorance is a choice." www.stateofwar.co.nf
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#27 - 2013-07-17 09:56:38 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Why then does the person moving have close to zero degrees while youe own arm has a full 360 degrees.
Because their arms are tied to the respective person's frame of reference. In EVE, guns are not.

Neither the maths nor the geography is ******** — they just don't use the frames of reference you're expecting. As a result, the relative motion between the two points is the same.

What is the reason for knowing the angular velocity and transversal speed? Hull based or gun based? If your ship is travelling across the bow of another ship at a 90 degree angle and the other ship is stopped is there a difference when the other ship is moving at the same speed in regards to angular velocity?

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#28 - 2013-07-17 10:08:44 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:
What is the reason for knowing the angular velocity and transversal speed? Hull based or gun based? If your ship is travelling across the bow of another ship at a 90 degree angle and the other ship is stopped is there a difference when the other ship is moving at the same speed in regards to angular velocity?

You want to know the angular speed because it's what matters to your guns.
You want to know the transversal since, as Mara Rinn pointed out, it tells you how well you can match their manoeuvres.

At the very instant you cross the target's line of travel, the target's speed doesn't matter, but as soon as you are even a fraction off that line, it will start to add or subtract from your relative motion.
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#29 - 2013-07-17 10:20:27 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:
What is the reason for knowing the angular velocity and transversal speed? Hull based or gun based? If your ship is travelling across the bow of another ship at a 90 degree angle and the other ship is stopped is there a difference when the other ship is moving at the same speed in regards to angular velocity?

You want to know the angular speed because it's what matters to your guns.
You want to know the transversal since, as Mara Rinn pointed out, it tells you how well you can match their manoeuvres.

At the very instant you cross the target's line of travel, the target's speed doesn't matter, but as soon as you are even a fraction off that line, it will start to add or subtract from your relative motion.

So when the game engine is only using relative velocity as opposed to actual velocities we're not using real life physics n math except at 0 transversal?

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#30 - 2013-07-17 10:25:07 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:
So when the game engine is only using relative velocity as opposed to actual velocities we're not using real life physics n math except at 0 transversal?

We're using the same physics and maths as always — it's just that we're looking at point objects without any kind of frame of reference of their own. There is nothing “unreal” about it.
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#31 - 2013-07-17 11:30:53 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:
So when the game engine is only using relative velocity as opposed to actual velocities we're not using real life physics n math except at 0 transversal?

We're using the same physics and maths as always — it's just that we're looking at point objects without any kind of frame of reference of their own. There is nothing “unreal” about it.

There is when the OP uses real life examples (two cars on a road) in the thread as well as the obvious unrealness of it.

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)
Scrutt5
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#32 - 2013-07-17 11:35:31 UTC
Wall of text but actually spot on!

+1
Zappity
New Eden Tank Testing Services
#33 - 2013-07-17 12:06:30 UTC
I've been using angular ever since I read up on turret tracking calculations. I have never understood why people use transversal. Good job OP.

Arduemont wrote:
You should feel bad about this thread.


Why? Good thread.

Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec and nullsec.
Plastic Psycho
Necro-Economics
#34 - 2013-07-17 12:06:44 UTC
Who really gives a damn?
This game has never aspired to rocket science. Nor even rigorous higher math.
Zappity
New Eden Tank Testing Services
#35 - 2013-07-17 12:09:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Zappity
Plastic Psycho wrote:
Who really gives a damn?
This game has never aspired to rocket science. Nor even rigorous higher math.


Snip.

Edit: you know what? If you can't be bothered to read the OP just keep using transversal and be happy.

Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec and nullsec.
Tiber Ibis
The Paratwa Ka
#36 - 2013-07-17 12:18:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Tiber Ibis
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
I'm just trying to raise awareness that transversal velocity is not what people treat it as. I'd say I succeeded there.Cool

Must admit, this used to annoy me when people kept banging on about transversal velocity in TS all the time and telling everyone how they should use it. And when I tried to explain to them to use angular they didn't seem to understand or were blinkered into believing transversal is the only way. Very strange, and made me wonder if they actually read the transversal reading they have on their overview or just like to bang on about to it everyone else to sound clever.

The only important ones to have are angular and radial. Transversal is nice if you have the screen real estate to fit it on although all the relevant information comes from angular which is basically a product of the transversal and distance from the target. Radial is very useful for telling you how fast a target is approaching or retreating.
Tiber Ibis
The Paratwa Ka
#37 - 2013-07-17 12:21:26 UTC
Tippia wrote:
You want to know the transversal since, as Mara Rinn pointed out, it tells you how well you can match their manoeuvres.

Hmm never thought about using transversal like that. I guess that is for throwing of people orbits etc then.
Weiz'mir
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#38 - 2013-07-17 13:22:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Weiz'mir
Tiber Ibis wrote:
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
I'm just trying to raise awareness that transversal velocity is not what people treat it as. I'd say I succeeded there.Cool

Must admit, this used to annoy me when people kept banging on about transversal velocity in TS all the time and telling everyone how they should use it. And when I tried to explain to them to use angular they didn't seem to understand or were blinkered into believing transversal is the only way. Very strange, and made me wonder if they actually read the transversal reading they have on their overview or just like to bang on about to it everyone else to sound clever.

The only important ones to have are angular and radial. Transversal is nice if you have the screen real estate to fit it on although all the relevant information comes from angular which is basically a product of the transversal and distance from the target. Radial is very useful for telling you how fast a target is approaching or retreating.


+1

My only concern is why tracking speed of turrets - which is a fundamental information - isn't shown along with the distances and damages information when you put your mouse over your modules.

Hope CCP will add this information soon.

I have always thougt that transversal velocity is useless if you know the velocity of the ennemy ship and its radial velocity.

However, reading Mara, I wonder if at the end of the day I shouldn't replace the velocity by the transversal velocity in my overview (not enough room for both).

After all, who cares of the "absolute" speed of a ship ? What matters is its relative speed, which is known thanks to the transversal velocity.

Am I right ?
Tiber Ibis
The Paratwa Ka
#39 - 2013-07-17 13:42:56 UTC
Weiz'mir wrote:
Tiber Ibis wrote:
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
I'm just trying to raise awareness that transversal velocity is not what people treat it as. I'd say I succeeded there.Cool

Must admit, this used to annoy me when people kept banging on about transversal velocity in TS all the time and telling everyone how they should use it. And when I tried to explain to them to use angular they didn't seem to understand or were blinkered into believing transversal is the only way. Very strange, and made me wonder if they actually read the transversal reading they have on their overview or just like to bang on about to it everyone else to sound clever.

The only important ones to have are angular and radial. Transversal is nice if you have the screen real estate to fit it on although all the relevant information comes from angular which is basically a product of the transversal and distance from the target. Radial is very useful for telling you how fast a target is approaching or retreating.


+1

My only concern is why tracking speed of turrets - which is a fundamental information - isn't shown along with the distances and damages information when you put your mouse over your modules.

Hope CCP will add this information soon.

I have always thougt that transversal velocity is useless if you know the velocity of the ennemy ship and its radial velocity.

However, reading Mara, I wonder if at the end of the day I shouldn't replace the velocity by the transversal velocity in my overview (not enough room for both).

After all, who cares of the "absolute" speed of a ship ? What matters is its relative speed, which is known thanks to the transversal velocity.

Am I right ?

The absolute speed of the ship should be left on for sure. This can give you a lot of useful information as to whether the opponent is MWD or AB fitted, or using boosts or other speed enhancing modules. Transversal wouldn't directly give you that information. I'm in the same position too, not enough screen real estate to fit on everything so transversal had to be sacrificed.
Ciyrine
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#40 - 2013-07-17 14:45:36 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Its just as difficult to hit a ship at zero velocity while orbiting as it is to hit an object orbiting at speed while you are stationary.

Of course, since the relative motion is the same. Also, this.


wrong

1) a ship orbiting you generates angular change = hard to track

2) you orbiting a target generates NO angular change = should be easy to track

The game physics treats 2) the same as 1) which is either a failure in the game designers physics understanding or a game balance thing.

The reason i say game balance thing because the fastest ship in a fight will always be the one orbiting. The slower ship will never generate an orbit motion, the slower ship will only manage to elongate the faster ships orbit into an oval.

Which means the fastest ship in a fight would experience zero angular/tracking problems trying to hit the slower ship. Which would make speed even more "king stat" in a frig vs frig fight. The way they have it setup now even the slower frig still has a fighting chance