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The Marauder that attacks!

Author
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#21 - 2013-07-16 14:03:32 UTC
DataRunner Touch wrote:
Hey! Just wanted to provide my input. Seeing you are doing an emergency jump to a bookmarked location and not to a cyno, how about instead of landing ontop of that book marked location, you land in the system at a random location, and at EXTREME speed (Thus taking time to slow down so you can warp off to a gate or what ever have you.)

Perfectly reasonable, and not an obstacle to this working as intended.

The landing being sloppy makes perfect sense, and I could see it not being permitted on grid with other objects too.
(No emergency station landings, if people are in the landing system that want your kill mail, you picked the wrong system.)

It is a tactical obvious detail that it will be in bad shape, with less than 20% cap if any left at all, and unprepared for any fight.

Then it has to successfully limp home. At LEAST one warp to a POS or Outpost to be repaired, if not supported by remote repping players.
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#22 - 2013-07-16 14:07:36 UTC
Arya Regnar wrote:
I propose this.

The emergency escape portals you into one of the 3 systems in which there was the most ship deaths in the last hour at a random stargate 17 km away from it and flags you suspect.

Interesting idea, but landing in high sec should be impossible, and if it was fighting already being flagged should be a non issue.

The only bypass, which might affect some, is if it was within jump range of low sec after a null sec fight.

In that case, you are being handed a cakewalk gank on an expensive ship already, if it lands within your ability to ambush it.
Not an unreasonable tradeoff, since the pilot might already have a bounty in addition to whatever his wreck drops.
Get some.
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#23 - 2013-07-16 14:17:56 UTC
Danika Princip wrote:
Nikk Narrel wrote:
Danika Princip wrote:
Hearthstones in EVE?

No.

You played that game too, eh?

Been awhile since I did, but I recognized that.

No, this is something to yank you out of combat going badly, and only one time a day.

It exists specifically so players will take otherwise insane risks, and stir up trouble.

Everything else: don't fly what you can't afford to lose.
This Marauder: once a day, you can try anything with no risk, IF you remember to hit the darned panic button before you pop.

Not any harder to beat in a fight, it just lives to fight another day more often than any other boat would.

Key point: It is designed for the risk taking.
You won't necessarily win more often, but you will get to try to win more often.



In wow terms, it's bubble and hearth. Do you remember how much people hated that?

This is EVE, nothing should ever come without risk. If you give these things a get out of jail free card, people WILL find a way to abuse the hell out of it.

People abuse everything, that possible consideration will handicap every idea if it becomes grounds to limit things.

This idea is risk management, in that the Marauder is not eliminating risk, but creating a means to retreat.

YOU CAN STILL CATCH IT.

The ship can still explode, but once per day you need to know where to find it first.

You DO make good points, Danika Princip, but the current gameplay dynamic is creating a likely unintended result.

Power blocks are focusing defenses in such a way, that no ship cheap enough to be reasonably lost by the average player has any realistic chance of threatening them.

Expensive ships and fittings are too often demanded, prohibitively so in many cases, which creates a deterrent effect.

Ship cheap enough to risk losing? No chance.
Ship expensive enough to have a chance? Too valuable to risk, for many players.

Net result? Get a bigger blob, or GTFO.

Are all players so poor that this paints them out of PvP? Of course not. But enough are unwilling to gamble with the odds not in their favor.

This is the casino offering the Marauder club one free spin a day, to drum up business.
Danika Princip
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#24 - 2013-07-16 19:59:11 UTC
Nikk Narrel wrote:

People abuse everything, that possible consideration will handicap every idea if it becomes grounds to limit things.

This idea is risk management, in that the Marauder is not eliminating risk, but creating a means to retreat.

YOU CAN STILL CATCH IT.

The ship can still explode, but once per day you need to know where to find it first.

You DO make good points, Danika Princip, but the current gameplay dynamic is creating a likely unintended result.

Power blocks are focusing defenses in such a way, that no ship cheap enough to be reasonably lost by the average player has any realistic chance of threatening them.

Expensive ships and fittings are too often demanded, prohibitively so in many cases, which creates a deterrent effect.

Ship cheap enough to risk losing? No chance.
Ship expensive enough to have a chance? Too valuable to risk, for many players.

Net result? Get a bigger blob, or GTFO.

Are all players so poor that this paints them out of PvP? Of course not. But enough are unwilling to gamble with the odds not in their favor.

This is the casino offering the Marauder club one free spin a day, to drum up business.



My escape point is a safespot in one of the nearest friendly station systems. How do you know which one I'm going to, how do you catch me in the time it takes me to jump there and warp to a station or POS? What's the jump range on these things, or is that unlimited too? If so, I get a free, invulnerable hauler to make small-ish Jita runs every two days.

As a member of a power bloc, I can assure you that cheap ships are fine. Talwars, Caracals, Celistis, bombers, wolves, none of these are expensive, and all are used constantly. Hell, there was a fleet of prophecies flying around earlier. The main Battleship fleet doctrines of both sides are t1 (Megas and Rokhs) too, so those hardly break the bank either.

No ship is going to make a difference to a bloc solo. A ship that can just jump away the second it finds odds not in it's favour is not going to change this. At best, you'd make it a bit harder for ratters in systems away from the front. If you want to do that, you can just run a tengu or something for half the price of the marauder hull alone.
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#25 - 2013-07-16 20:51:59 UTC
Danika Princip wrote:
My escape point is a safespot in one of the nearest friendly station systems. How do you know which one I'm going to, how do you catch me in the time it takes me to jump there and warp to a station or POS? What's the jump range on these things, or is that unlimited too? If so, I get a free, invulnerable hauler to make small-ish Jita runs every two days.

As a member of a power bloc, I can assure you that cheap ships are fine. Talwars, Caracals, Celistis, bombers, wolves, none of these are expensive, and all are used constantly. Hell, there was a fleet of prophecies flying around earlier. The main Battleship fleet doctrines of both sides are t1 (Megas and Rokhs) too, so those hardly break the bank either.

No ship is going to make a difference to a bloc solo. A ship that can just jump away the second it finds odds not in it's favour is not going to change this. At best, you'd make it a bit harder for ratters in systems away from the front. If you want to do that, you can just run a tengu or something for half the price of the marauder hull alone.

Jump range was pointed out to be same as a BLOPs, so it is the shortest in the game.
You will probably want JDC 4 or 5 to max this out, but even so it will be less than 8ly range.

If you insist on basing from a friendly station system, you cannot use your panic jump outside of that range. This can become a severe limit if your territory doesn't have nearby hostile neighbors.

This will increase hostile activities for TWO reasons:

One: Cheaper to use one ship multiple times, than continually replacing a cheap ship repeatedly. Unless you have a lot of play time, (a lot being context dependent I admit), you can't do much more than one good run a night.

Two: There is a player mindset, I can only guess how many players fit this, where they want a powerful ship that doesn't need to be replaced predictably.
Give them a ship, let them know it is only as good as the pilot, but once per day it can bail out of combat to a fallback system.

It is an incentive to take risks, not a cheap one, but the incentive that if they are skilled, and take the right precautions, they can PvP and probably avoid replacing their expensive ship too.
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#26 - 2013-07-19 16:37:49 UTC
It occurs to me, that this would be a quasi buff to the PvE function of this craft as well.

The problem is, like any attempt to jump, the destination system cannot be out of range, or in a place that blocks jumping.
(A cyno jammer would block this, as would any high sec system)

A PvE mission going wrong? You are free to jump into any null or low sec system in your range.
If you are operating out of high sec, that could mean you are trading one kind of problem for a possible different type.

May not always be a winning strategy, but it is an option to consider.
Elsbeth Taron
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#27 - 2013-08-19 07:54:31 UTC
Marauders have problems that need to be addressed but this bubble and squeak approach doesn't do that. The expense, ludicrous sensor strength and daft bonuses make it virtually worthless for anything except timid hisec missions. Fix those items and suggestions like this one wouldn't surface.
Whitehound
#28 - 2013-08-19 08:53:09 UTC
The idea seems to be direct work-around of the rule: do not fly what you cannot afford to lose.

It would have to violate the 60 second PvP timer to be of any practical consequence.

I am definitely not liking it.

Loss is meaningful. Therefore is the loss of meaning likewise meaningful. It is the source of all trolling.

Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#29 - 2013-08-19 14:59:22 UTC
Elsbeth Taron wrote:
Marauders have problems that need to be addressed but this bubble and squeak approach doesn't do that. The expense, ludicrous sensor strength and daft bonuses make it virtually worthless for anything except timid hisec missions. Fix those items and suggestions like this one wouldn't surface.

Where is the tech 2 specialization, if all it does is the same thing a faction boat does?
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#30 - 2013-08-19 15:00:31 UTC
Whitehound wrote:
The idea seems to be direct work-around of the rule: do not fly what you cannot afford to lose.

It would have to violate the 60 second PvP timer to be of any practical consequence.

I am definitely not liking it.

That would be described as "An exception to the rule"

They happen quite frequently in real life. In a game, whatever the devs make possible happens.
Mournful Conciousness
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#31 - 2013-08-19 16:38:44 UTC
I think you guys almost had it there.

How about: a high slot module that prohibits a cyno being activated on the same grid as the ship that is fielding it, at the same time as emitting a high powered ECM burst. It might also emit a warp disruption field that means people warping to that location experience some variance in where they land. Useable once per 5 minutes or thereabouts, and uses lots of cap.

Cynos could be created anywhere else in system. This module only fittable to marauders.

This prevents a hot-drop blob but does not prevent the cynoing-in of reinforcements. They will simply arrive 60 seconds later, giving the marauder time to somehow, maybe evade capture.

This give a lone marauder a disengagement option, and allows it to be used usefully in a roam. It also means that the presence of a marauder means that a fight can escalate over the course of a few minutes rather than being over immediately on lighting of a cyno.

Thoughts?

Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".

Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#32 - 2013-08-19 17:01:53 UTC
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
I think you guys almost had it there.

How about: a high slot module that prohibits a cyno being activated on the same grid as the ship that is fielding it, at the same time as emitting a high powered ECM burst. It might also emit a warp disruption field that means people warping to that location experience some variance in where they land. Useable once per 5 minutes or thereabouts, and uses lots of cap.

Cynos could be created anywhere else in system. This module only fittable to marauders.

This prevents a hot-drop blob but does not prevent the cynoing-in of reinforcements. They will simply arrive 60 seconds later, giving the marauder time to somehow, maybe evade capture.

This give a lone marauder a disengagement option, and allows it to be used usefully in a roam. It also means that the presence of a marauder means that a fight can escalate over the course of a few minutes rather than being over immediately on lighting of a cyno.

Thoughts?

It still leaves a big, deterrent sized, chunk of risk on the table.

The OP takes the ship class name as inspiration, and asks the question: What would make people attack more often?
The answer, in this case, is if attacking was more cost efficient.

Since this is a specific class of ships, and specialized in a manner that is normally reflected in the class name, this type of ship should be the most cost efficient to attack with.

Is it free of risk? Absolutely not.

It has two glaring limits: The once per day nature of the ability, and the fact that the pilot is landing at his hoped for safe spot in no condition to fight.
Considering he had to land in either null or low sec, exactly HOW safe is a battleship that was considered too messed up to continue in it's fight from moments earlier? You don't trigger this effect unless you expect to lose, otherwise.
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