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Dev Blog: Rebalancing and Renaming Industrials

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Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#41 - 2013-07-16 18:29:34 UTC
Valterra Craven wrote:
Zaknussem wrote:

Also, InterBus should have the haulers, not ORE.


This make no sense, why on earth would you give industrial ships to InterBus? They're a courier company similar to Red Frog Freight etc, they don't make ships. ORE does.

Courier is another way to say transport, which is what these ships actually do. And whose to say that InterBus couldn't come up with thier own lines of specialized ships, or have them built specifically for them. It would seem to be a natural progression.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#42 - 2013-07-16 18:33:17 UTC
Valterra Craven wrote:
Ranger 1 wrote:

Probably because the majority of us use industrials to haul modules and other items not covered by the specialized ships.

All of this has been covered, go read the main thread.

This is workable for now without devoting resources that simply aren't available right now.


I have read the threads and his responses. (Actually posted in the first one as well) My opinion still doesn't change. If you don't have the resources to do something correctly the first time, then don't waste time on it till you do.

Edited with link to my post in original thread: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=3258203#post3258203

Your choice, I'll take better until perfect can be implimented. Why would you not solve as many problems as possible as soon as possible., instead of putting the whole thing off (in it's current messed up state) until you can fix it all at once (whenever that might be). MMO's tend to develop in a series of iterations for a reason.

Or simply "Why put off til tomorrow the parts you can fix today".

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.
Illectroculus Defined
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#43 - 2013-07-16 18:36:18 UTC
Kinda disappointed that we don't get a new Tech 1 Caldari Hauler using a reskinned Bustard Hull, would have been so easy...
Panhead4411
Rothschild's Sewage and Septic Sucking Services
The Possum Lodge
#44 - 2013-07-16 18:39:24 UTC
So these changes are not going onto SiSi at all then eh? Just assuming you were going to ignore tester feedback anyway so you just decided to skip that step?

http://blog.beyondreality.se/shift-click-does-nothing    < Unified Inventory is NOT ready...
Esna Pitoojee
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#45 - 2013-07-16 18:46:52 UTC
WTF no. Bring back Badger Mk. II.
Rhapsody d'Elysium
Circle of Friends
#46 - 2013-07-16 18:49:41 UTC
Valterra Craven wrote:
Ranger 1 wrote:

Probably because the majority of us use industrials to haul modules and other items not covered by the specialized ships.

All of this has been covered, go read the main thread.

This is workable for now without devoting resources that simply aren't available right now.


I have read the threads and his responses. (Actually posted in the first one as well) My opinion still doesn't change. If you don't have the resources to do something correctly the first time, then don't waste time on it till you do.

Edited with link to my post in original thread: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=3258203#post3258203

I agree with Valterra. It would have been far better for ORE to develop the new industrials, and then have the other empires (those that have more than two haulers) decide to retire their redundant hulls from service.

Instead we have a half-finished system that is heavily biased towards Gallente and Caldari, with those of us that have trained other races (I'm Amarr afterall) essentially left out in the cold. Moving the new specialty ships over to ORE would have both been more thematic, but more importantly, put everybody on equal footing since the ORE Industrial skill would be required.
Valterra Craven
#47 - 2013-07-16 19:03:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Valterra Craven
Ranger 1 wrote:

Your choice, I'll take better until perfect can be implimented. Why would you not solve as many problems as possible as soon as possible., instead of putting the whole thing off (in it's current messed up state) until you can fix it all at once (whenever that might be). MMO's tend to develop in a series of iterations for a reason.

Or simply "Why put off til tomorrow the parts you can fix today".


This change appears to have taken significant time from at least one or more devs and doesn't really solve the stated problems.

The stated problem was that tieracide made Gal the obvious and really only choice to train for indys.

That is still the case with these changes.

Does one race have slightly better m3 hauler? Yes.
Does another race have a slightly faster hauler? Yes.
Does any of that matter? Nope.

SP is precious and given the choice if you only could train one race of haulers its still going to be Gallente. Not only do you get the same choice every other race has, "lots of m3" or "tanky and fast", but you also get choices that no other race has, specialized bays.... (an ammo bay is a kinda silly comparison compared to a REAL PI hauler.)

There is nothing "better" about these changes and it doesn't solve any problems.
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#48 - 2013-07-16 19:03:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Ranger 1
Rhapsody d'Elysium wrote:
Valterra Craven wrote:
Ranger 1 wrote:

Probably because the majority of us use industrials to haul modules and other items not covered by the specialized ships.

All of this has been covered, go read the main thread.

This is workable for now without devoting resources that simply aren't available right now.


I have read the threads and his responses. (Actually posted in the first one as well) My opinion still doesn't change. If you don't have the resources to do something correctly the first time, then don't waste time on it till you do.

Edited with link to my post in original thread: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=3258203#post3258203

I agree with Valterra. It would have been far better for ORE to develop the new industrials, and then have the other empires (those that have more than two haulers) decide to retire their redundant hulls from service.

Instead we have a half-finished system that is heavily biased towards Gallente and Caldari, with those of us that have trained other races (I'm Amarr afterall) essentially left out in the cold. Moving the new specialty ships over to ORE would have both been more thematic, but more importantly, put everybody on equal footing since the ORE Industrial skill would be required.

I'm sure in a perfect world they would have preferred to snap their fingers and simply restructure everything (and come up with new models, skills, etc.) in one go.

However, it's not a perfect world of unlimited time and resources.

A move of these ships to ORE (or elsewhere) would have required new art assets be created. For the moment, that's not possible so we have improvements made that were possible to do, but there is still a ways to go.

Remember, this really wasn't much of an issue (despite claims to the contrary) until the skills progression got reworked. It's going to take a bit of time, and they are perfectly useful for most of us. If you need a specialty hull, for the moment train Gallante.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.
Valterra Craven
#49 - 2013-07-16 19:06:22 UTC
Ranger 1 wrote:
If you need a specialty hull, for the moment train Gallante.


This right here was the crux of the problem before the changes, and still is after the changes.

Waste of time.
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#50 - 2013-07-16 19:08:15 UTC
Valterra Craven wrote:
Ranger 1 wrote:

Your choice, I'll take better until perfect can be implimented. Why would you not solve as many problems as possible as soon as possible., instead of putting the whole thing off (in it's current messed up state) until you can fix it all at once (whenever that might be). MMO's tend to develop in a series of iterations for a reason.

Or simply "Why put off til tomorrow the parts you can fix today".


This change appears to have taken significant time from at least one or more devs and doesn't really solve the stated problems.

The stated problem was that tieracide made Gal the obvious and really only choice to train for indys.

That is still the case with these changes.

Does one race have slightly better m3 hauler, Yes.
Does another race have a slightly faster hauler? Yes.
Does any of that matter? Nope.

SP is precious and given the choice if you only could train one race of haulers its still going to be Gallente. Not only do you get the same choice every other race has, "lots of m3" or "tanky and fast", but you also get choices that no other race has, specialized bays.... (an ammo bay is a kinda silly comparison compared to a REAL PI hauler.)

There is nothing "better" about these changes and it doesn't solve any problems.

Personally, I wouldn't bother with training Gallante on most of my characters, as they don't haul minerals, ore, or PI goods.
They haul modules and equipment primarily... and occasionally large quantities of ammunition for resupply purposes, but thats not Gallante.
I do have some characters that would benefit from the Gallante specialty bays. and for them it makes sense... but certainly not for the majority of them. More general cargo space has it's distinct advantages, as does faster travel time.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#51 - 2013-07-16 19:09:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Ranger 1
Valterra Craven wrote:
Ranger 1 wrote:
If you need a specialty hull, for the moment train Gallante.


This right here was the crux of the problem before the changes, and still is after the changes.

Waste of time.

Incorrect of course.
The problem was that if you needed any kind of hauler, train Gallante. Now, if you need speed or more general cargo capacity, choose the appropriate race.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.
Tenchi Sal
White Knights of Equestria
#52 - 2013-07-16 19:10:41 UTC
Most of the new players to the game will exclusively train Gallante now.
Valterra Craven
#53 - 2013-07-16 19:11:36 UTC
Ranger 1 wrote:

Personally, I wouldn't bother with training Gallante on most of my characters, as they don't haul minerals, ore, or PI goods.
They haul modules and equipment primarily... and occasionally large quantities of ammunition for resupply purposes, but thats not Gallante.
I do have some characters that would benefit from the Gallante specialty bays. and for them it makes sense... but certainly not for the majority of them. More general cargo space has it's distinct advantages, as does faster travel time.


More general cargo space is always an advantage. This was never being debated. The problem is that the differences between m3 in the races is so small that its not worth quibbling about. If you are getting roughly the same general m3 as the other races + two specialized bays it doesn't make since to train anything else.
Valterra Craven
#54 - 2013-07-16 19:13:51 UTC
Ranger 1 wrote:
Valterra Craven wrote:
Ranger 1 wrote:
If you need a specialty hull, for the moment train Gallante.


This right here was the crux of the problem before the changes, and still is after the changes.

Waste of time.

Incorrect of course.
The problem was that if you needed any kind of hauler, train Gallante. Now, if you need speed or more general cargo capacity, choose the appropriate race.


No one "needs" 1 sec faster align times or 500-1000 more m3 past 30k m3.

Everyone needs to spend their SP time wisely.
MeBiatch
GRR GOONS
#55 - 2013-07-16 19:14:22 UTC
Tenchi Sal wrote:
Most of the new players to the game will exclusively train Gallante now.


good for them. afaik the itty 5 was the best and now its not... so if you dont need special bays... gal are far from the best.

though for 0.0 ratting the mineral one will be usefull for hauler spawns.

There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... CCP Goliath wrote:

Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#56 - 2013-07-16 19:15:20 UTC
Valterra Craven wrote:
Ranger 1 wrote:

Personally, I wouldn't bother with training Gallante on most of my characters, as they don't haul minerals, ore, or PI goods.
They haul modules and equipment primarily... and occasionally large quantities of ammunition for resupply purposes, but thats not Gallante.
I do have some characters that would benefit from the Gallante specialty bays. and for them it makes sense... but certainly not for the majority of them. More general cargo space has it's distinct advantages, as does faster travel time.


More general cargo space is always an advantage. This was never being debated. The problem is that the differences between m3 in the races is so small that its not worth quibbling about. If you are getting roughly the same general m3 as the other races + two specialized bays it doesn't make since to train anything else.

If you have no need for specialty bays, why would you waste time cross training Gallante? Smile

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.
Aeril Malkyre
Knights of the Ouroboros
#57 - 2013-07-16 19:15:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Aeril Malkyre
This is a great update. Good work Rise, and thanks for listening!

For those that didn't read the original threads, there was much rabbling about evening out numbers of hulls for all the races, or making them all ORE, etc etc. But Rise made it appropriately clear that the time and resources aren't there, and that they have some industry changes planned for the future that may impact things. They didn't want to implement seismic shifts in the industrial line before that happens. These changes are useful, bring the hauling capacities closer together to prevent the 'there can be only one' problem, and restore some of the racial flavor to the hulls. I'm looking forward to it.

Edit to add: Rise, you may want to update the second round thread to add the new names to each of the hulls? Would simplify people browsing who aren't familiar with the thread.
Valterra Craven
#58 - 2013-07-16 19:17:52 UTC
Ranger 1 wrote:

If you have no need for specialty bays, why would you waste time cross training Gallante? Smile


The answer is you wouldn't cross train Gallente, you would "only" train Gallante.
Estella Osoka
Cranky Bitches Who PMS
#59 - 2013-07-16 19:19:08 UTC
Why not just make the "extra" Iterons into ORE industrials, and require them to use the ORE Industrial skill?
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#60 - 2013-07-16 19:21:10 UTC
Valterra Craven wrote:
Ranger 1 wrote:

If you have no need for specialty bays, why would you waste time cross training Gallante? Smile


The answer is you wouldn't cross train Gallente, you would "only" train Gallante.

Now you're being obtuse.

If you fly Amarr, Caldari, or Minmatar ships you'd be cross training Gallante. If I fly Amarr, and like most people I want the largest general cargo hold, why on earth would I feel forced to cross train Gallante?

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.