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The sneee, to end all snitches.

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Author
Sir Dragon
Einherjar Yggdrasils
Ankle Biter's
#1 - 2013-07-12 18:35:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Sir Dragon
[do not add to this letter unless you have something constructive to say].
This letter is on the subject of altering CCP Eve's "zero tolerance" towards "Addons" and similar programs.
The letter considers the eventual outcome of having a "zero tolerence" in an universe of M.M.O.R.P.G.s that do not.
Player-social-biases are discussed along with their inability or incapability to read or comprehend E.U.L.A.s :
Social biases that leads to the player's banning by CCP Eve's crew.

I would like to begin by chooping directlly at the problem by saying,
consider lifting all perminent bans that have been issued by CCP towards CCP's Eve Players.
[added] not isk related offences.
[added] empahsize the "pilot thinks / believes "cheating" is ok . . due to "cannot / will-not read EULA".

What we may have here is a case of "people that like computers to much",
or in other words Hackers, getting banned for simply sticking to cyber-social-biases tought by all the other MMORPGs.
Via logical induction and inferences, it is quite simple to derive that those people are Hackers and love space ships.
(+)
What we have here is an ever growing number of players that were only following cyber-social-biases dictated/tought by all the other M.M.O.R.P.G.s' cultures. External social biases that completely accept all forms of "Addons".
[added] : I am not saying "allow addons".
[added] : Conisder that Aurora autopilots the ship to the "nearest" station, and CONCORD sends the pilot a letter saying "Flight Licence Revoked, as is something something, enjoy roaming the station".

Now, let us consider the low % of pilots that actaully read the E.U.L.A.; moreover, let us consider the number of pilots that are literate to the point of comprehending an E.U.L.A..


Now, consider the logical sequence that would almost always happen with new players :
An external cyber-social-bias that has tought pilots to accepts addons is firmly embedded in the pilots subconcious,
and (+)
the very real and very high % of pilots that were ' incapable of ' / 'unable to' read the E.U.L.A..


Step of your high horse for a minute and look at the battle field.
Increased attacks upon CCP's assets by hackers,
could that have anything todo with the shear volume of players that have been banned.


There are always acouple of rotten apples in the basket of this size,
such as players that deserve an entire year's ban (BUT NO MORE) for their clashes with CCP's zero tolerance.
Yet, consider when the "fellon" has been identified,
then re-identifying an violation is no longer "finding an needle in an hay stack".


CPP's zero tolerance for addons is also quite unethical:
banning of an individual for conducting activities that is very well accepted in all other M.M.O.R.P.G.S. is ultimatlly self defeating.
Also, the alteration of the "zero tolerance" would rend half the opposing hacking forces to your banner (assuming a glorious speech).
[added] again, I am not sying permit addons, i am saying get the rules into the face of the offending pilot: Just because you and all your friends are literate does not mean the rest of the world is. Aditionally, the act of punishment is effective if the restricted action is unrestricted later on . . compared to the illlogical action of an perminent ban, without warning or prior short-banns, is pointless due to . . . re read from paraghraph it is quite clear.


Seriously now,
would we reject a subscription from 1000+ pilots because you can't see the forest for the ego/caffeen/hangover.
How, also, would it not release the utility of an % # of your crew that is fending of cyber attacks when 1/2 of those cyber attacks would be rended NULL by simply doing this.


In conclusion, and beware the demonology . . . (its just letters)
What kind of self delusional [sensored] would impliment such an reaction towards it's companies subscribers? No one!
I would suggest that we have here an case of RL Corporate warfare, where we have been feed subterfuge and false statistics that ultamitely lead CCP to the self defeating "zero tolerance". An policy that cannot be changed by any regualr [muu muu] Joe cause Joe could never see through its ego, even if Eden IS burning!! So stop fighting your regular subscriber which is a space ship loving hacker that has better things todo then read 3k pages of EULA pr week and is via nature breed into following socialy acepted biases over all other things.
Pantera Home Videos:    http://pktube.onepakistan.com/video/ck2ykdBrDRM/Pantera-Vulgar-Video-Full-Completo.html  ;  http://pktube.onepakistan.com/video/xpma3u7OjfU/Pantera-Watch-It-Go-Full-Completo-CD1.html ;    http://pktube.onepakistan.com/video/yyO9rAx8eoQ/Pantera-Watch-It-Go-Full-Completo-CD2.html .
ISD Tyrozan
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
ISD Alliance
#2 - 2013-07-15 00:36:56 UTC
Thread has been moved to Jita Park Speakers Corner.

ISD Tyrozan

Captain

Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)

Interstellar Services Department

@ISDTyrozan | @ISD_CCL

Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#3 - 2013-07-15 01:43:49 UTC
You mean the people who got a warning for botting, and who then continued to do so, so got banned?

Or those who did direct client modification? Sure, /some/ of them might not have realised. But still, it's hard to call CCP 'unethical' for sticking to the word of the contract that these people signed.

Woo! CSM XI!

Fuzzwork Enterprises

Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter

Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#4 - 2013-07-15 06:08:39 UTC
No, they cheated and broke rules with punishments that could not have been more clearly expressed.

I am 100% opposed to any such amnesty. EVE's gameplay is founded on player interaction. People who bot steal the game from the rest of us. They distort the game economy and devalue player professions. They cause power imbalances. They cause resentment and disillusionment amongst players who don't cheat. They do harm.

To hell with them.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016

Frying Doom
#5 - 2013-07-15 06:27:56 UTC
Why was a thread directed at CCP moved to Jita Park?

But on topic.

Bots, RMTers and people who try to fudge the code, deserve a ban.

Frankly I think CCP is to soft on them.

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!

Bi-Mi Lansatha
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#6 - 2013-07-15 08:00:26 UTC
Sir Dragon wrote:
... consider lifting all perminent bans that have been issued by CCP towards CCP's Eve Players...

...let us consider the number of pilots that are literate to the point of comprehending an E.U.L.A....
Is part of your argument that those banned are just stupid?
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#7 - 2013-07-15 09:13:42 UTC
Steve Ronuken wrote:
You mean the people who got a warning for botting, and who then continued to do so, so got banned?

Or those who did direct client modification? Sure, /some/ of them might not have realised. But still, it's hard to call CCP 'unethical' for sticking to the word of the contract that these people signed.



People who are smart enough to tinker with the client code are smart enough to know that it's disallowed.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016

Sir Dragon
Einherjar Yggdrasils
Ankle Biter's
#8 - 2013-07-15 23:29:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Sir Dragon
Steve Ronuken wrote:
You mean the people who got a warning for botting, and who then continued to do so, so got banned?

Or those who did direct client modification? Sure, /some/ of them might not have realised. But still, it's hard to call CCP 'unethical' for sticking to the word of the contract that these people signed.



Unproven speculation.
Also, u are taking the worst case scenarios and using it to cast a shadow on all the other cases.

Ethics part :
Should the continued repetition of an act prove, to be, a folly then that act is unethical.

The act of being bound to what "people signed" :
What of illiterates?
What of all the "Joes" like me that are simply cyber-socially driven to accept any e.u.l.a.
We have to "program" around / with this, to that end of placing extreemly noticable warnings onto the pilot's console itself. And we must endouver to . . . eject our own egos . . . perceive from the Pilot's perspective to that end of understanding that perspective, that is usually oblivious to any rules or regulations (CCP's Eve is very strict).

[paraphrased into common]
Acts that deserve banning must be firmly placed in front of the pilots "nose".
We must endouver to understand that those pilots are just being human.
Pantera Home Videos:    http://pktube.onepakistan.com/video/ck2ykdBrDRM/Pantera-Vulgar-Video-Full-Completo.html  ;  http://pktube.onepakistan.com/video/xpma3u7OjfU/Pantera-Watch-It-Go-Full-Completo-CD1.html ;    http://pktube.onepakistan.com/video/yyO9rAx8eoQ/Pantera-Watch-It-Go-Full-Completo-CD2.html .
Sir Dragon
Einherjar Yggdrasils
Ankle Biter's
#9 - 2013-07-15 23:31:46 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
No, they cheated and broke rules with punishments that could not have been more clearly expressed.

I am 100% opposed to any such amnesty. EVE's gameplay is founded on player interaction. People who bot steal the game from the rest of us. They distort the game economy and devalue player professions. They cause power imbalances. They cause resentment and disillusionment amongst players who don't cheat. They do harm.

To hell with them.


Again, true, yet you are taking the worst case scenario and using it to cast a shadow on the rest of the "banned".
With the inevitalbe result of all bannable offenses receive the same unethical bann time of : infinite.

Pantera Home Videos:    http://pktube.onepakistan.com/video/ck2ykdBrDRM/Pantera-Vulgar-Video-Full-Completo.html  ;  http://pktube.onepakistan.com/video/xpma3u7OjfU/Pantera-Watch-It-Go-Full-Completo-CD1.html ;    http://pktube.onepakistan.com/video/yyO9rAx8eoQ/Pantera-Watch-It-Go-Full-Completo-CD2.html .
Sir Dragon
Einherjar Yggdrasils
Ankle Biter's
#10 - 2013-07-15 23:32:46 UTC
Frying Doom wrote:
Why was a thread directed at CCP moved to Jita Park?

But on topic.

Bots, RMTers and people who try to fudge the code, deserve a ban.

Frankly I think CCP is to soft on them.


Again, you also are taking the worst case scenarios and using them to . . . read what i said in my 2 uper responses.
Pantera Home Videos:    http://pktube.onepakistan.com/video/ck2ykdBrDRM/Pantera-Vulgar-Video-Full-Completo.html  ;  http://pktube.onepakistan.com/video/xpma3u7OjfU/Pantera-Watch-It-Go-Full-Completo-CD1.html ;    http://pktube.onepakistan.com/video/yyO9rAx8eoQ/Pantera-Watch-It-Go-Full-Completo-CD2.html .
Sir Dragon
Einherjar Yggdrasils
Ankle Biter's
#11 - 2013-07-15 23:34:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Sir Dragon
Bi-Mi Lansatha wrote:
Sir Dragon wrote:
... consider lifting all perminent bans that have been issued by CCP towards CCP's Eve Players...

...let us consider the number of pilots that are literate to the point of comprehending an E.U.L.A....
Is part of your argument that those banned are just stupid?



I am saying that we are fighting the nature of the regular "Joe".
Where our example pilot "Joe" is socially inclined to disregard E.U.L.A. reading and to get as many addons on its screen as possible.

Yes, very many people cannot read, [yet] that [fact] seams to escape allot of people.

No, the ban is not stupid; it is simply too long.
Additionally, by permitting banned players to re-enter CCP Eve's Universe after a years ban . . . then those accounts are "known" and do thus logaically not have to be "found" . . . thus this would save the CCP Eve's crew time in tracking the "fellon" 's new accounts.
Pantera Home Videos:    http://pktube.onepakistan.com/video/ck2ykdBrDRM/Pantera-Vulgar-Video-Full-Completo.html  ;  http://pktube.onepakistan.com/video/xpma3u7OjfU/Pantera-Watch-It-Go-Full-Completo-CD1.html ;    http://pktube.onepakistan.com/video/yyO9rAx8eoQ/Pantera-Watch-It-Go-Full-Completo-CD2.html .
Sir Dragon
Einherjar Yggdrasils
Ankle Biter's
#12 - 2013-07-15 23:44:14 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
Steve Ronuken wrote:
You mean the people who got a warning for botting, and who then continued to do so, so got banned?

Or those who did direct client modification? Sure, /some/ of them might not have realised. But still, it's hard to call CCP 'unethical' for sticking to the word of the contract that these people signed.



People who are smart enough to tinker with the client code are smart enough to know that it's disallowed.



Absolutlly.

What of quantification :
the lack of an active Eve-account does not quantifiy the fellon away from the "tinker[ing] with the client code".

Pantera Home Videos:    http://pktube.onepakistan.com/video/ck2ykdBrDRM/Pantera-Vulgar-Video-Full-Completo.html  ;  http://pktube.onepakistan.com/video/xpma3u7OjfU/Pantera-Watch-It-Go-Full-Completo-CD1.html ;    http://pktube.onepakistan.com/video/yyO9rAx8eoQ/Pantera-Watch-It-Go-Full-Completo-CD2.html .
Sir Dragon
Einherjar Yggdrasils
Ankle Biter's
#13 - 2013-07-15 23:51:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Sir Dragon
So let us sum up what we are seeing here:

Every single last reponse to this post has shown how we have
demonified the result of getting banned;
We are always looking at the worst case scenario and letting those scenarios place a shadow over all the other banned cases.

So what is that? A simple error in quantifcation and an run way crew with an plausible ego problem. That is when we define the 1st premise, of many, via emotion instead of logic (Counter is actaully a glass of water).

We are not comprehending all the other cases that are absolutlly not deserving of a perminent bans; thus, we have spawned an entire base of unethically banned players.

And i do enjoy being the Devils advocate. SO ASK f.f.s.
Pantera Home Videos:    http://pktube.onepakistan.com/video/ck2ykdBrDRM/Pantera-Vulgar-Video-Full-Completo.html  ;  http://pktube.onepakistan.com/video/xpma3u7OjfU/Pantera-Watch-It-Go-Full-Completo-CD1.html ;    http://pktube.onepakistan.com/video/yyO9rAx8eoQ/Pantera-Watch-It-Go-Full-Completo-CD2.html .
Frying Doom
#14 - 2013-07-16 00:27:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Frying Doom
Sir Dragon wrote:
Frying Doom wrote:
Why was a thread directed at CCP moved to Jita Park?

But on topic.

Bots, RMTers and people who try to fudge the code, deserve a ban.

Frankly I think CCP is to soft on them.


Again, you also are taking the worst case scenarios and using them to . . . read what i said in my 2 uper responses.

If you are illiterate and then able to read about a botting program or alter code you are doing very well indeed.
If you are to lazy to read the EULA and TOS, then get banned for botting, hacking etc.. then as they say ignorance of the law is no excuse.

Permanent bans do not occur for a first offense of botting, they do for hacking the code. If you are smart enough to hack the code you are smart enough to know what you are doing is bannable.

As to add-ons again, ignorance of the law is no excuse. Being lazy is not an excuse.

I was an ex-wow player myself many years ago and was looking for add-ons, I made the strange step of reading the EULA and TOS, I asked questions and subsequently did not get banned.

Again for you, if cyber culture requires laziness, then prepare to pay the reaper. The rules are put in front of the pilots noses, they are just being too lazy to read them.

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!

Vortexo VonBrenner
Doomheim
#15 - 2013-07-16 06:19:00 UTC
Illiterates are being cybersocially oppressed by being forced to read a EULA! Pitchfork and torch time!
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#16 - 2013-07-16 09:00:33 UTC
Sir Dragon wrote:


We are not comprehending all the other cases that are absolutlly not deserving of a perminent bans; thus, we have spawned an entire base of unethically banned players...


I disagree. They chose to cheat. They chose to ignore the rules. They deserve to be banned.

I have zero sympathy.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016

Dersen Lowery
The Scope
#17 - 2013-07-16 15:44:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Dersen Lowery
Sir Dragon wrote:
So what is that? A simple error in quantifcation and an run way crew with an plausible ego problem. That is when we define the 1st premise, of many, via emotion instead of logic (Counter is actaully a glass of water).


What does this even mean?

...

The "first strike" is there for people who just assume that CCP is indifferent to bots and hacks. It's pretty soft. If you're arguing on behalf of the people who were perma-banned then sorry, no sale. Sure, they will occasionally get a false positive, which sucks, but in the overwhelming majority of cases the people who are permanently banned were banned for crapping up the game with bots and code injection exploits which were knowingly used to gain an unfair advantage over other players (in the best case! and for RMT and credit card fraud in the worst), and the game is better off without them.

Proud founder and member of the Belligerent Desirables.

I voted in CSM X!

Sir Dragon
Einherjar Yggdrasils
Ankle Biter's
#18 - 2013-07-16 18:44:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Sir Dragon
Bolting the lid shut and boiling away the barking . . .
I do believe that I got my point accross . . .
It is human nature that we are fighting:
to presume that each new player is an EULA expert,
or even literate to the point of being able to read such, is utter folly.

And for the 4th time . . .
Does anyone notice how every single post is automatically refering to the worst case scenarios?
Stop bloody refering to the worst case scenarios : credit card fraud, code changing, bots.

Every single last on of ya, has used the demonified Bott or Code Changer to run a moke with the very essence of this letter; which is, read the bloody post.

Here, an analogy :
I met a man in Jail that was there for parking ticket violations,
he told me that he could not get out of jail cause in that jail there was a group of mean people that did terrible things.
Pantera Home Videos:    http://pktube.onepakistan.com/video/ck2ykdBrDRM/Pantera-Vulgar-Video-Full-Completo.html  ;  http://pktube.onepakistan.com/video/xpma3u7OjfU/Pantera-Watch-It-Go-Full-Completo-CD1.html ;    http://pktube.onepakistan.com/video/yyO9rAx8eoQ/Pantera-Watch-It-Go-Full-Completo-CD2.html .
Dersen Lowery
The Scope
#19 - 2013-07-16 21:13:28 UTC
Sir Dragon wrote:
Every single last on of ya, has used the demonified Bott or Code Changer to run a moke with the very essence of this letter; which is, read the bloody post.


The people doing this have read your post. In your post, you say two particularly damning things:

1) everyone who has been banned should be unbanned;

2) if you just let people hack the game, they won't be so tempted to compromise and DDoS it.

Right off the bat, you're not talking about people with parking tickets. The people who have been banned have been banned precisely for hacks, botting or RMT, or some combination of those. Those are, unsurprisingly, the people who would resort to attacking the game itself. So you're talking about amnesty for the very people who CCP wants out of the game. You can post all the non sequiturs you can think of, but that doesn't change the content of your original post.

The implicit threat in #2 is a nice touch, by the way:

Sir Dragon wrote:
How, also, would it not release the utility of an % # of your crew that is fending of cyber attacks when 1/2 of those cyber attacks would be rended NULL by simply doing this.


Nice game you got there. Shame if something happened to it, amirite?

Proud founder and member of the Belligerent Desirables.

I voted in CSM X!

Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#20 - 2013-07-17 08:41:44 UTC
Sir Dragon wrote:
Bolting the lid shut and boiling away the barking . . .
I do believe that I got my point accross . . .
It is human nature that we are fighting:
to presume that each new player is an EULA expert,
or even literate to the point of being able to read such, is utter folly.

And for the 4th time . . .
Does anyone notice how every single post is automatically refering to the worst case scenarios?
Stop bloody refering to the worst case scenarios : credit card fraud, code changing, bots.

Every single last on of ya, has used the demonified Bott or Code Changer to run a moke with the very essence of this letter; which is, read the bloody post.

Here, an analogy :
I met a man in Jail that was there for parking ticket violations,
he told me that he could not get out of jail cause in that jail there was a group of mean people that did terrible things.



You're not getting your bot farm unbanned. Deal with it.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016

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