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Ability to decloak ships?
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Onomerous
Caldari Black Hand
Caldari Tactical Operations Command
#41 - 2013-07-15 12:56:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Onomerous
Hileksel Tarmik wrote:
Hello.

As a member of a null-sec industry corporation, I have seen first-hand what a Covert-Ops ship can do to a system while being AFK. Maybe I should start with some facts.

Mining ships are mostly easy kills, with somewhat low defences, and not very good align times. Currently, one of the most used tactics to keep these ships alive is to warp to a safe point whenever Intel suggests there is danger.

When an AFK cloaker is in system, it is considered a bad idea to move out of a safe zone with any ship, as many cloakers have the ability to use cynosaural fields and smartbombs.

It is a commonly used tactic to sit in a system with a cloaked ship while AFK. This prevents mining, and to an extent, local travel, as many pilots know the possible capabilities of many cloaked ships. However, they usually don't even know what ship the cloaker is in.

I realise there is a good reason there is cloaking. It adds a very interesting aspect to the game. The problem many people have, is the fact that an enemy player, corp, or even an alliance, can send one ship into a system, have it sit cloaked for an entire day, and disrupt activity in that system without even pressing a button on the keyboard.

Question: "Hey, why not move to another system?"
Answer: "Because someone is AFK cloaked in that one too!"(And the next one... Oh wait, they have the same last names...)

On the alliance level, this is a huge reward, with little risk. Cripple enemy logistics, for the price of a covert ship. And most of the time, that ship comes home safe after a week.

The biggest problem is AFK cloakers. Some suggestions to fix this are:

Fuel for Cloaks: It would solve the problem. However, this adds extra cost to running a cloaked ship. Some other balance related issues have been raised as well.

Dead-Man Switch: Can be botted around easily

Anti Cloak Weapons/Scanners: This affects not only AFK cloakies, but active ones. This solution would need to be carefully analyzed and well thought out before implementation, as it could easily shift the balance too far.

In threads like this, link to other, older threads on the topic. There are many suggested ideas on this topic, and if you can put your support behind them, and your ideas, they may become a reality.

EDIT: I can see where people are coming from on the Local Chat issue. There are other threads focusing on in this issue. My personal favorite is an option to go into "Silent" mode. It would shut down chat, fleet, market, and any other NeoCom functions that would require outside communications, and in return, you can not be seen on Local. I know that this solution is not perfect, but to me, it makes sense. If you are not communicating, you should not be visible on a chat channel.


I need proof please!! An AFK cloaker is killing ships in your system? That is one frigging awesome EVE player if he can kill stuff while AFK!! ;)

Just think how bad it would be if there was no local??!! Gasp, the horror!!! EVE should have a type of space that has no local and see how it goes?? ;)

As long as it is one ship + null sex style local, I see no problem. If you are worried they may bring tons of friends in with a cyno then that is a different issue with a definite solution.
Debora Tsung
Perkone
Caldari State
#42 - 2013-07-15 14:53:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Debora Tsung
Tachibane Kanade wrote:

Hello,

The reason started after watching Mad Ani's stream. He is streaming the Fountain war (I am greatful to him for that). But, at the same time I started thinking about the whole cloaking mechanics because basically the alliance in that system is totally unable to do anything to try and flush him out of their system.


Oh, but that's not true. last time I watched Ani's stream someone asked if he ever has been killed while streaming, and he answered with a yes. Mind You, he's usually quite far away from the ships he's watching, and still someone managed to decloak and kill him, so I'd say it's fine.

Stupidity should be a bannable offense.

Fighting back is more fun than not.

Sticky: AFK Cloaking Thread It's not pretty, but it's there.
Debora Tsung
Perkone
Caldari State
#43 - 2013-07-15 15:35:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Debora Tsung
On a completely unrelated side note, I also want afk docking to be a bannable offense.

Whever I'm mining or running missions and those devious bastards are sitting their stations AFK, I feel that uneasy thingling between my shoulders, that feeling that You're being watched, HOUNDED! I know they're just waiting for an oportunity to kill me, take my shineys, disgrace my corpse PUBLICLY!

AFK docking is completely unbalanced and therefore ruins my gameplay, perfect safety for zero effort, nobody should have that!

I pondered what to do about that, for a very long time until I found the perfect solution.

I'll petition CCP and gather signatures on that topic until they give me what I am entitled to , until I finally get what I deserve!

Stupidity should be a bannable offense.

Fighting back is more fun than not.

Sticky: AFK Cloaking Thread It's not pretty, but it's there.
Onomerous
Caldari Black Hand
Caldari Tactical Operations Command
#44 - 2013-07-15 16:28:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Onomerous
Debora Tsung wrote:
On a completely unrelated side note, I also want afk docking to be a bannable offense.

Whever I'm mining or running missions and those devious bastards are sitting their stations AFK, I feel that uneasy thingling between my shoulders, that feeling that You're being watched, HOUNDED! I know they're just waiting for an oportunity to kill me, take my shineys, disgrace my corpse PUBLICLY!

AFK docking is completely unbalanced and therefore ruins my gameplay, perfect safety for zero effort, nobody should have that!

I pondered what to do about that, for a very long time until I found the perfect solution.

I'll petition CCP and gather signatures on that topic until they give me what I am entitled to , until I finally get what I deserve!


I want to ban immediate docking up/POS'ing up in NS!! If a non-blue comes into system, you cannot go within 1 au of a dock or POS for 20 seconds. I need a way to combat them getting safe before I can blow them up. Seems to be balanced as there isn't much I can do to stop them from doing it as soon as I enter local.
Debora Tsung
Perkone
Caldari State
#45 - 2013-07-16 07:38:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Debora Tsung
Onomerous wrote:
I want to ban immediate docking up/POS'ing up in NS!! If a non-blue comes into system, you cannot go within 1 au of a dock or POS for 20 seconds. I need a way to combat them getting safe before I can blow them up. Seems to be balanced as there isn't much I can do to stop them from doing it as soon as I enter local.


I can express naught but support for this idea. It's downright brilliant, visionary.

I also propose that everyone who wants to leave or enter his POS should have to disable the POS' shields for at least 20 seconds.

Stupidity should be a bannable offense.

Fighting back is more fun than not.

Sticky: AFK Cloaking Thread It's not pretty, but it's there.
Mag's
Azn Empire
#46 - 2013-07-16 07:57:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Mag's
This thread is now getting places. I whole heartedly agree with my 2 previous poster friends.

I would also like to suggest that when undocking, there is a 25% chance of module over heat, 50% chance of shield loss and 75% chance of armour loss. After any loss your ship is flagged for a minute and warp disabled.

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
Keira Kashuken
Daikoku Innovations
#47 - 2013-07-16 09:09:45 UTC
Can you actually explain the problem other than referring to a stream and talking about whats supposedly not fair and all?

Why exactly does EvE needs a way to decloak ships at long ranges?
Sura Sadiva
Entropic Tactical Crew
#48 - 2013-07-16 09:21:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Sura Sadiva
Keira Kashuken wrote:
Can you actually explain the problem other than referring to a stream and talking about whats supposedly not fair and all?

Why exactly does EvE needs a way to decloak ships at long ranges?


But it's UNFAIR!

My alliance has a policy to stop ratting and dock a neutral is in local. So if they stay there for hours is impossible to rat! And our daily farming quotes drop down! Not like we can deal with the risk and accept some loss! In 0.0 whole systems and regions got scared and is impossible to undock.

And all this done by someone in a T1 frigate and AFK!

This is clearly a bugged game mechanics!

And no, do not try to make pointsd and explain me, I'll know you're only trying to **** me, no evidence or logic can change my monolithic faith and I'll start to loop in circular self-referential arguments.
Rowells
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#49 - 2013-07-16 11:10:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Rowells
I think being able to probe down a cloaked ship is all that's necessary. It won't really affect anyone who's actually interacting or scouting the system or participating in any kind of blops activities.

Cloaking itself is fine and there is no need for a decloaking module. It seems a little odd that as soon as someone makes a safe and cloaks up, no amount of players, skills, effort, etc. can do anything about it. I cannot think of a single example in any situation where you can hide anywhere perfectly without the chance of being found. And the fact that all of your probes, dscan, and other sensors work perfectly fine while cloaked, makes it almost as bad as the local chat problem. But I don't think that needs to be changed either. If you are in a hostile system, making yourself safe shouldn't be as simple as fitting a cheap module. And while local may be broken, I don't think that eliminating it completely would solve this.
Debora Tsung
Perkone
Caldari State
#50 - 2013-07-16 11:49:55 UTC
Rowells wrote:
I think being able to probe down a cloaked ship is all that's necessary. It won't really affect anyone who's actually interacting or scouting the system or participating in any kind of blops activities.

Cloaking itself is fine and there is no need for a decloaking module. It seems a little odd that as soon as someone makes a safe and cloaks up, no amount of players, skills, effort, etc. can do anything about it. I cannot think of a single example in any situation where you can hide anywhere perfectly without the chance of being found. And the fact that all of your probes, dscan, and other sensors work perfectly fine while cloaked, makes it almost as bad as the local chat problem. But I don't think that needs to be changed either. If you are in a hostile system, making yourself safe shouldn't be as simple as fitting a cheap module. And while local may be broken, I don't think that eliminating it completely would solve this.


Pouring some new oil into the fire, eh? Lol

You should know that skilled probers only need about 5 seconds to scan someone down.

So if ppl can suddenly scan down cloaked ships, I want to be able to deploy mobile decoys without uncloaking.

And I want something to expell docked players from their stations, because it's clearly unbalanced since I can't do anything against docked players.

Stupidity should be a bannable offense.

Fighting back is more fun than not.

Sticky: AFK Cloaking Thread It's not pretty, but it's there.
Sura Sadiva
Entropic Tactical Crew
#51 - 2013-07-16 12:04:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Sura Sadiva
Debora Tsung wrote:


You should know that skilled probers only need about 5 seconds to scan someone down.

So if ppl can suddenly scan down cloaked ships, I want to be able to deploy mobile decoys without uncloaking.
And I want something to expell docked players from their stations, because it's clearly unbalanced since I can't do anything against docked players.


But... maybe... with a new kind of probe called "cover probes", more expansive, and requiring astronometrics at 5 would be balanced....

And docking is different, I can dock in my own system, so it's fair.
But allowing to someone AFK to kill people and to destory, alone, whole regions is not balanced at all!
Rowells
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#52 - 2013-07-16 12:23:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Rowells
Debora Tsung wrote:
Pouring some new oil into the fire, eh? Lol

You should know that skilled probers only need about 5 seconds to scan someone down.

So if ppl can suddenly scan down cloaked ships, I want to be able to deploy mobile decoys without uncloaking.

And I want something to expell docked players from their stations, because it's clearly unbalanced since I can't do anything against docked players.


You should also know that the 5-second time only applies when A) you have probes pre-positioned and B) you know the general area of the ship. You will never be able to find a random safe with just one go.

And I'm assuming the automatic undock is in reference to the decloaking module that I suggested against. But I geuss you could just flip the station to your alliance and wait for him to make his move. Works pretty much the same way.
Debora Tsung
Perkone
Caldari State
#53 - 2013-07-16 12:25:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Debora Tsung
Sura Sadiva wrote:
Debora Tsung wrote:


You should know that skilled probers only need about 5 seconds to scan someone down.

So if ppl can suddenly scan down cloaked ships, I want to be able to deploy mobile decoys without uncloaking.
And I want something to expell docked players from their stations, because it's clearly unbalanced since I can't do anything against docked players.


But... maybe... with a new kind of probe called "cover probes", more expansive, and requiring astronometrics at 5 would be balanced....

And docking is different, I can dock in my own system, so it's fair.
But allowing to someone AFK to kill people and to destory, alone, whole regions is not balanced at all!


Maybe we can implement some kind of repulsor modules for mining barges that push all hostile ships off grid as soon as activated. :)

EDIT: After all We want both sides to have equally alanced modules to force everyone to play like everyone wants! Lol

Stupidity should be a bannable offense.

Fighting back is more fun than not.

Sticky: AFK Cloaking Thread It's not pretty, but it's there.
Debora Tsung
Perkone
Caldari State
#54 - 2013-07-16 12:42:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Debora Tsung
Rowells wrote:

You should also know that the 5-second time only applies when A) you have probes pre-positioned and B) you know the general area of the ship. You will never be able to find a random safe with just one go.

And I'm assuming the automatic undock is in reference to the decloaking module that I suggested against. But I geuss you could just flip the station to your alliance and wait for him to make his move. Works pretty much the same way.


A) Bless odyssey for You can now deploy probes in a predefined pattern! Lol

B) Generaly speaking near one of the planets or other celestial bodies.You an set Your scan radius large enough to get all safe spots nearby and at the same time small enough to catch anything with the first scan.

So, in short: NO! BAD IDEA! Big smile

Where's the link to the collection of "anti cloaking" thread when you need it. Lol

NoNo, it doesn't work the same way. The dockling expellant module (sounds like some chemical added to some laundry detergent) would just force undock someone from a station AND warp him away 100km in a straigt line, and It'd ofc have a cycle time of 1 minute. It'd be PERFECTLY BALANCED! Nobody should enjoy perfect safety for zero effort once logged in!

Stupidity should be a bannable offense.

Fighting back is more fun than not.

Sticky: AFK Cloaking Thread It's not pretty, but it's there.
Debora Tsung
Perkone
Caldari State
#55 - 2013-07-16 12:47:25 UTC
Sura Sadiva wrote:
But... maybe... with a new kind of probe called "cover probes", more expansive, and requiring astronometrics at 5 would be balanced....

And docking is different, I can dock in my own system, so it's fair.
But allowing to someone AFK to kill people and to destory, alone, whole regions is not balanced at all!


My god you may be on to something... Who would've thought that Astrometrics 5 as a prerequirement could make something balanced! Shocked

Stupidity should be a bannable offense.

Fighting back is more fun than not.

Sticky: AFK Cloaking Thread It's not pretty, but it's there.
Rowells
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#56 - 2013-07-16 12:51:32 UTC
Debora Tsung wrote:
Rowells wrote:

You should also know that the 5-second time only applies when A) you have probes pre-positioned and B) you know the general area of the ship. You will never be able to find a random safe with just one go.

And I'm assuming the automatic undock is in reference to the decloaking module that I suggested against. But I geuss you could just flip the station to your alliance and wait for him to make his move. Works pretty much the same way.


A) Bless odyssey for You can now deploy probes in a predefined pattern! Lol

B) Generaly speaking near one of the planets or other celestial bodies.You an set Your scan radius large enough to get all safe spots nearby and at the same time small enough to catch anything with the first scan.

So, in short: NO! BAD IDEA! Big smile

Where's the link to the collection of "anti cloaking" thread when you need it. Lol

NoNo, it doesn't work the same way. The dockling expellant module (sounds like some chemical added to some laundry detergent) would just force undock someone from a station AND warp him away 100km in a straigt line, and It'd ofc have a cycle time of 1 minute. It'd be PERFECTLY BALANCED! Nobody should enjoy perfect safety for zero effort once logged in!


You're absolutely right. I am so tired of having to work for these kills nowadays. EVE has gotten so much harder lately, hasn't it?
Debora Tsung
Perkone
Caldari State
#57 - 2013-07-16 13:30:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Debora Tsung
Rowells wrote:
You're absolutely right. I am so tired of having to work for these kills nowadays. EVE has gotten so much harder lately, hasn't it?


Absolutely true my friend, I loathe hard work involved in getting myseelf a killmail.

That reminds me, I really want that warp disruption ammo for my missiles as proposed in one of those other threads, then I could finally shoot victims at 200km range and they couldn't run away or warp to me. That would be awesome! Cool

Stupidity should be a bannable offense.

Fighting back is more fun than not.

Sticky: AFK Cloaking Thread It's not pretty, but it's there.
Onomerous
Caldari Black Hand
Caldari Tactical Operations Command
#58 - 2013-07-16 14:14:30 UTC
Sura Sadiva wrote:
Debora Tsung wrote:


You should know that skilled probers only need about 5 seconds to scan someone down.

So if ppl can suddenly scan down cloaked ships, I want to be able to deploy mobile decoys without uncloaking.
And I want something to expell docked players from their stations, because it's clearly unbalanced since I can't do anything against docked players.


But... maybe... with a new kind of probe called "cover probes", more expansive, and requiring astronometrics at 5 would be balanced....

And docking is different, I can dock in my own system, so it's fair.
But allowing to someone AFK to kill people and to destory, alone, whole regions is not balanced at all!


(note: I cannot detect if they are trolling, using sarcasm or if they are really that lacking in brain matter)

AFK killing and destroying? Damn that is one awesome EVE player. I would bet the best that ever played. They don't have to be at their keyboard to get kills? Wait a second.. are they using a PVP bot maybe? And they can kill in other regions beside the one they are in?? All by themselves? This AFK killing cloaker is surely winning EVE!!!
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#59 - 2013-07-16 14:30:49 UTC
Onomerous wrote:
Sura Sadiva wrote:
Debora Tsung wrote:


You should know that skilled probers only need about 5 seconds to scan someone down.

So if ppl can suddenly scan down cloaked ships, I want to be able to deploy mobile decoys without uncloaking.
And I want something to expell docked players from their stations, because it's clearly unbalanced since I can't do anything against docked players.


But... maybe... with a new kind of probe called "cover probes", more expansive, and requiring astronometrics at 5 would be balanced....

And docking is different, I can dock in my own system, so it's fair.
But allowing to someone AFK to kill people and to destory, alone, whole regions is not balanced at all!


(note: I cannot detect if they are trolling, using sarcasm or if they are really that lacking in brain matter)

AFK killing and destroying? Damn that is one awesome EVE player. I would bet the best that ever played. They don't have to be at their keyboard to get kills? Wait a second.. are they using a PVP bot maybe? And they can kill in other regions beside the one they are in?? All by themselves? This AFK killing cloaker is surely winning EVE!!!


True ninja pilots do not even need to log in at all.

They think violent thoughts, and NPCs "accidentally" shoot targets into explosions.

Splode-Jutsu for the win!!

Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked...
Danika Princip
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#60 - 2013-07-16 19:46:40 UTC
Rowells wrote:


You should also know that the 5-second time only applies when A) you have probes pre-positioned and B) you know the general area of the ship. You will never be able to find a random safe with just one go.




Keep the probes close in on your fleet, keep them cycling, and you're literally immune to stealth bombers.

Why do you want to buff blobs?