EVE General Discussion

So someone who doesn't agree with your one sided view of EVE has to be told "Ohh I'm, big, bad and rich, therefore more important". You keep bleating about sheep when you are nothing more than a big mouth school yard bully. If being an Elite PVPer means turning into a prick that runs down every person who doesn't see things in the same fashion, no thanks...

(I just luv the hide post function)...)

Totally relevant, first of all. If you could get carebears to do anything in groups, at all, they'd have a seat on the CSM. They aren't organized by the very nature of their tunnel vision single player game mentality, the same mentality that makes them whine when people break their pixels.

So, no amount of them will mass quit that will make any effect, any at all, on my ability to buy ships from the marketeers, who shear the sheep every day in the market, and sell me the proceeds. So yes, if any of them take their ball and go home, I will still be able to buy ships. The very concept that if "we stopped you would have to make your own" is laughable.

Besides, you are also making the incorrect assumption that PvP players aren't self sufficient. I have mining ships. I have BPOs or plenty of BPCs for almost every T1 ship I fly (remember, if you get down to it, I buy the T2 ships from nullsec, not the carebears).

What, you think I can't manage to make my own Rifters, or Catalysts? It takes like 30 minutes to mine that much, and the BPOs cost like ten million isk.

Funny thing is they can't see that, because they're trained to see that those ships magically fall from trees.

If buying them in nullsec, guess who makes them? Guess who does the mining? Guess who has to babysit them?

Those nullsec guys mine in high-sec like anyone else. Seeing those null alliance cans prove it (no one uses the largest freight containers to mine in high-sec if they're a high-sec player...worthless, as they don't need to mine in volume to feed a "free" PvP habit).

Null sec is more dependent on high sec for their needs (all the researchers for T2 and T3 production are up here. Those BPOs don't go into null -- want another Rev destruction episode, and this time with priceless T2 BPOs??? -- endless copies do. They're busy making copies and mission running for data cores.

Only the ignorant would go around claiming "I just buy my ships in nullsec", as it shows they don't understand even the basics in how those ships even exist...at least anything larger than a tin can 1mil builds that serve as "PvP ships" to risk aversive PvPers.

And if they need anything better than a cheap T1 and only flying in corp sanctioned fleets, they need to PvE for the datacores at least.

The balance in the equation is PvE exists to build the very ships that's needed to PvP. Ask the Goons, they have an high-sec army of alts feeding their T2/T3 ships in Fountain. They're primary a PvE outfit, but will fight for resources.

So if you hear CCP talk about the game is about fighting for resources (not territory) as the new promotion, yeah, PvE matters (and don't try to change the definition, people know what's up).

Can't PvP without a cheap means to keep fighting. Players fight with cheap T1 throw aways as a means to PvP. But they have to get the mats. An alliance can't provide players every ship, it's for fleet objective fights. So individuals mine or run up to Jita to buy the mats to build (because it's a full time job mining otherwise to keep the mats flowing).

The cannon fodder just thinks "easy ganks". But killing the golden goose just shows why they are cannon fodder. PvErs laugh all the way to the bank anyhow (there's no tears anyway).

As long as the PvPers have to stay in high-sec (all the production toons, especially for T2 and T3) because the risks are greater than the reward, null will always depend on high-sec for even their basic needs.

PvErs see the reality, and why they're in high-sec in the first place.

Risk vs Reward rules...and the CSMs aren't going to fix that, either.

Originally agreed with some of the OP's opening statements but his Raielling Fussilade against the sheep brought to my attention that he was kinda ill. Probably side effects of repeated reanimation. Like a punch drunk fighter, I'm still inclined to respect him despite his now off target blows.

If you want to PVP you have to be willing to lose, someone mentioned that already to put it mildly. Therefore PVP is for losers. PVE'ers don't like to lose, there fore PVE is for winners. All killboard stats are lopsided. When everybody is in gangs, everybody ends up with incredibly high numbers by design of the deceitful math. Lyers are despreate losers, killboard stats are a lie, therefore PVPers are liars. Gangs of liars are losers that can't stand to look in a real mirror. Ive been in the bottom of gang fights with a woman hitting me with her high heal, she was a loser as all killmail whores are. Landing a shot in a gank of many versus one does not make you a winner, therefore gang muggers are losers. How else could it be? PVP is for losers.

Well said, Rells.

The core issue is always Risk vs Reward, which is badly broken in many areas. But none moreso than in the player's heads.

First there is the widespread problem of self-esteem being linked to performance in a video game. So that any loss whatsoever becomes a reflection on themselves and damages their ego. This is fostered by a PvE system that offers zero risk for massive reward, while individual PvP fights in Eve often have lots of risk for very little immediate reward. You are an all powerful god over entire fleets of NPC's, but at the mercy of some pirate in a Rifter....

The obsession over singular win/loss comes from people that have very little of either. The point of being immortal is that winning and losing is a numbers game. All PvP'ers lose ships and pods. People that PvP for a 'living' in Eve see it as a whole. It's not that I have never lost ships, it's that I have killed more than I've lost- or even that I killed more expensive ships than the ones I flew, or against specific people or groups....even on this level, PvP goes beyond singular win/loss futility. It's not dueling.

Secondly, there is scope to PvP. All that PvP happening in Fountain is for a reason- the land grab for R64 moons. It isn't just simply for the sake of generating a killmail. If you give PvP some depth this way, then loss isn't so clearly bad. The hero dictor pilot often dies very early in a fight, but his death isn't just a destroyed ship, he has bubbled an entire enemy fleet so that his fleet can fight, or flee. The Falcon that gets primaried into powder but not before taking out half the enemy's locks, has not simply 'lost'.

There being no point to PvP in Eve is a failing of the player, not the game.

And you ignore Technetium, which the Goons exploited, being only available in null.

0/10.

Balance is balance.

And why cannon fodder need not be in any leadership positions!

I don't think I'm wearing enough tinfoil to protect me from this mutton conspiracy...

I took one of the first agony classes somewhere back in mid 2006. Up until that time I had been mining and was getting bored stiff. Using what I had learned I took a 5 man frig gang out for a nullsec roam and managed to trap and kill a vagabond. After that my mining days were over and I never looked back.

You all cloister up in your own little sections of the game and proclaim that you're style of play is the best. The vast majority of you are fools. Fools, because you don't realize that not only are YOU right when you state your method of play is needed, but EVERYONE ELSE'S method is TOO.

- Carebears provide the infrastructure.

- Highsec bandits inject the risk that NEEDS to be there.

- Lowsec provides the demand for more powerful but slighty more expensive ships.

- Nullsec demands the big ships, capitals and supers.

If you think that carebears don't do their part to keep Eve running along, then you're an idiot who can't see past his nose. But it's more than simple distribution of resources. There's a scaling, a tutourial if you will, that takes place behind the scenes.

- Highsec fleets fight NPCs, while learning to work together. Doing missions, they learn how to manage resources, deal with multiple targets attacking them, deal with ECM and other basic tactics. Missions are easy because they're supposed to be. They're where you start

- Incursions provide players the trial by fire needed to hone their skills; you have a role and you play it or the house of cards falls down. It shows you how different doctrins work, how another player's skills are needed for your own skills to work to their fullest.

- Faction Warfare lets people test their skills in solo and small group PvP, leading up to larger fights on Ihubs and teaching people to deal with pirates and gate camps. They should have learned a role and how to play it when they were in highsec fleets and incursions, and the should have learned to listen to their FCs, or to be good FCs themselves. It also pushes the player out into soloing more through running complexes- teaches to keep your eye on the D-scan, evaluate situations and decide which fights are winnable and which ones aren't, and how to deal with escalation- because more hostile players could warp in at any time. It teaches awareness of not only the system you're in, but the surrounding systems too.

- Nullsec is the next level of these skills, leading up to large engagements dealing with many different mechanism inside the whole who all need to do their part or risk ships hundreds of times more expensive than theirs. It gives players who've mastered these skills a chance to carve out their own space.

- Wormhole takes a completely different turn, forcing you to be cautious and take risks that you couldn't have planned for. Large fleet engagements take days-weeks to set up, and there is no running back to safe territory if something goes wrong. WH space is the ultimate loner's paradise.


This is the tutourial built into the game itself; new players have every tool they need to learn to succeed. It's just that some find one thing and jump right into it, ignoring everything else. I'm not saying that nullsec or WH space or FW is better than anything else. I'm saying that they all require and teach skills that can't be found elsewhere; skills that every combat focused player should learn eventually.

Branch the **** out people. Specialization is for insects.