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Why some people in Eve cant do PvP

Author
Doc Severide
Doomheim
#61 - 2013-07-14 11:25:25 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Doc Severide wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
You're right about one thing though. If that kind of player wants to play EVE, they do have to tolerate PvP players. Because this is their game.
Bullshit, this is not any one persons style of play game. This game has much much more to offer beyond PVP. If it wasn't for lowly miners and manufacturing players, you wouldn't have anything to PVP with. If it wasn't for PVP'ers they wouldn't have anyone to sell their products to. There is a symbiotic relationship between all professions in EVE but too many arrogant PVPers think EVE is only about / for them...


I love how this is always the rallying cry of the ganked. "Yeah, well, we make your ships and pvp possible in the first place!" No, you don't. Because, guess what? The minute any of the sheep get fed up enough to declare loudly that they are taking their ball and going home(like the children they are), the marketeers, who are the people who do matter in all of this, will swoop in and take advantage of any holes in the economic viability of an area.

Someone else with thicker skin will deal with the realities of the game. Someone else will sell me my stuff. Hilariously, that someone will make a better profit now that Sheep #412 has quit because of the big, bad PvP bullies. That's capitalism, and it's why the sheep don't matter to anyone but themselves. All the sheep do is inflate the amount of isk in circulation.

Completely irrelevant. I have never once talked about quitting. And yes, we DO make your ships and PVP possible. If we stopped you would have to take time to make your own. Don't tell me that would make you happy... If you want to swoop into any holes, I can think of several where your ilk would fit nicely...

Everyone is always repeating the mantra "Don't Trust Anyone" ad nauseum... If I can't trust the guys I play with, why bother playing with them at all? Fly Solo...

Doc Severide
Doomheim
#62 - 2013-07-14 11:32:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Doc Severide
Rells wrote:
Arthur Aihaken wrote:

The only one "bleating" here is you. I mean, really - who are you trying to convince? This is a lame attempt to basically set unsuspecting players up as marks for your own amusement in low-sec. And as a matter of fact, a lot of the players camping in low-sec are cowards. Show up with anything more than an easy gank and they quickly scatter to the nearest station or POS. Most low-sec players are so desperate for combat that they shoot literally anything - even if it has no value whatsoever.


Really? And what challenge would you pose. What epic fight would you and your ilk offer? What fight can a sheep put up? I have more isk than you can imagine in your little mining barge. Your ships, your loot dont interest me. What interests me is a spectacular battle, overcoming the odds, proving conventional wisdom wrong. If you came into my line of sight, I would blow you up and pod you not out of a desire to get your stuff. Simply out of a contempt for those who act like sheep, who allow themselves to be led to slaughter and go out with a whimper. You are insignificant to the real PvPers in the game. ...

So someone who doesn't agree with your one sided view of EVE has to be told "Ohh I'm, big, bad and rich, therefore more important". You keep bleating about sheep when you are nothing more than a big mouth school yard bully. If being an Elite PVPer means turning into a prick that runs down every person who doesn't see things in the same fashion, no thanks...

(I just luv the hide post function)...)

Everyone is always repeating the mantra "Don't Trust Anyone" ad nauseum... If I can't trust the guys I play with, why bother playing with them at all? Fly Solo...

Ace Uoweme
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#63 - 2013-07-14 11:43:51 UTC
Doc Severide wrote:

So someone who doesn't agree with your one sided view of EVE has to be told "Ohh I'm, big, bad and rich, therefore more important". You keep bleating about sheep when you are nothing more than a big mouth school yard bully. If being an Elite PVPer means turning into a prick, no thanks...

(I just luv the hide post function)...)


It's typical rhetoric on PvP forums.

They talk the talk, but don't want to walk the walk.

When WoW upped the health of city guards to raid level, the PvPers cried to no end. Literally buckets of tears because there's a consequence of fighting the city guards. Not the mockery of pulling them like sheep for slaughter.

If the consequence that's in their favor, it's you that needs to "suck it up". But if anything hurts their carefree play style, they're but 12 year-olds denied ice cream.

Laziest and most double standard gamers in gaming are MMO PvPers. If it isn't cheap to play, they don't want to play.

_"In a world of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act." _ ~George Orwell

Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#64 - 2013-07-14 11:45:56 UTC
Quote:

Completely irrelevant. I have never once talked about quitting. And yes, we DO make your ships and PVP possible. If we stopped you would have to take time to make your own. Don't tell me that would make you happy... If you want to swoop into any holes, I can think of several where your ilk would fit nicely...


Totally relevant, first of all. If you could get carebears to do anything in groups, at all, they'd have a seat on the CSM. They aren't organized by the very nature of their tunnel vision single player game mentality, the same mentality that makes them whine when people break their pixels.

So, no amount of them will mass quit that will make any effect, any at all, on my ability to buy ships from the marketeers, who shear the sheep every day in the market, and sell me the proceeds. So yes, if any of them take their ball and go home, I will still be able to buy ships. The very concept that if "we stopped you would have to make your own" is laughable.

Besides, you are also making the incorrect assumption that PvP players aren't self sufficient. I have mining ships. I have BPOs or plenty of BPCs for almost every T1 ship I fly (remember, if you get down to it, I buy the T2 ships from nullsec, not the carebears).

What, you think I can't manage to make my own Rifters, or Catalysts? It takes like 30 minutes to mine that much, and the BPOs cost like ten million isk. Roll

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.

Rhivre
TarNec
Invisible Exchequer
#65 - 2013-07-14 11:53:08 UTC
I do PvP, I just do not do it in a ship Twisted
Ace Uoweme
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#66 - 2013-07-14 12:12:02 UTC
Doc Severide wrote:
And yes, we DO make your ships and PVP possible. If we stopped you would have to take time to make your own. Don't tell me that would make you happy... If you want to swoop into any holes, I can think of several where your ilk would fit nicely...


Funny thing is they can't see that, because they're trained to see that those ships magically fall from trees.

If buying them in nullsec, guess who makes them? Guess who does the mining? Guess who has to babysit them?

Those nullsec guys mine in high-sec like anyone else. Seeing those null alliance cans prove it (no one uses the largest freight containers to mine in high-sec if they're a high-sec player...worthless, as they don't need to mine in volume to feed a "free" PvP habit).

Null sec is more dependent on high sec for their needs (all the researchers for T2 and T3 production are up here. Those BPOs don't go into null -- want another Rev destruction episode, and this time with priceless T2 BPOs??? -- endless copies do. They're busy making copies and mission running for data cores.

Only the ignorant would go around claiming "I just buy my ships in nullsec", as it shows they don't understand even the basics in how those ships even exist...at least anything larger than a tin can 1mil builds that serve as "PvP ships" to risk aversive PvPers.

_"In a world of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act." _ ~George Orwell

Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#67 - 2013-07-14 12:30:17 UTC
Let's not forget the hidden underlying truth: most PvP'ers that roam low and null-sec also have an alt mining or otherwise engaged in grinding missions in high-sec for ISK. Oh wait, next we'll be told they're "forced to" because of the lack of opportunities in low or null-sec... Convenient.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.

Ace Uoweme
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#68 - 2013-07-14 12:50:45 UTC
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
Let's not forget the hidden underlying truth: most PvP'ers that roam low and null-sec also have an alt mining or otherwise engaged in grinding missions in high-sec for ISK. Oh wait, next we'll be told they're "forced to" because of the lack of opportunities in low or null-sec... Convenient.


And if they need anything better than a cheap T1 and only flying in corp sanctioned fleets, they need to PvE for the datacores at least.

The balance in the equation is PvE exists to build the very ships that's needed to PvP. Ask the Goons, they have an high-sec army of alts feeding their T2/T3 ships in Fountain. They're primary a PvE outfit, but will fight for resources.

So if you hear CCP talk about the game is about fighting for resources (not territory) as the new promotion, yeah, PvE matters (and don't try to change the definition, people know what's up).

Can't PvP without a cheap means to keep fighting. Players fight with cheap T1 throw aways as a means to PvP. But they have to get the mats. An alliance can't provide players every ship, it's for fleet objective fights. So individuals mine or run up to Jita to buy the mats to build (because it's a full time job mining otherwise to keep the mats flowing).

The cannon fodder just thinks "easy ganks". But killing the golden goose just shows why they are cannon fodder. PvErs laugh all the way to the bank anyhow (there's no tears anyway).

As long as the PvPers have to stay in high-sec (all the production toons, especially for T2 and T3) because the risks are greater than the reward, null will always depend on high-sec for even their basic needs.

PvErs see the reality, and why they're in high-sec in the first place.

Risk vs Reward rules...and the CSMs aren't going to fix that, either.

_"In a world of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act." _ ~George Orwell

Rells
Lethal Riposte
#69 - 2013-07-14 15:14:05 UTC
The reality is that muche of the gravitation of the economy to high sec is the doing of the sheep. There was a time when you had to go to nullsec to get components to build high end items but the sheep bleated loudly and often and then megabyte got added to mission drops. CCP assured us that it was only small amounts and that we were being paranoid thinking they were destroying the nullsec economy. Then they added level 4 missions which allowed high sec people to get nullsec quality rats in high sec.we warned about that but the sheep bleated loudly. Now the situation is that when it comes to risk vs reward has become such at there is no risk to building in high sec and you can do anything in high sec that you used to be able to do in nullsec only. As time has gone on CCP has introduced most of their economic incentives and the ability to build certain things in high sec, causing nullsec to be emptied based on the bleating of the sheep.

Now years later CCP is trying to push people into low sec and into 0.0 with gimmicks and tricks it won't work because the vast majority of the papers, hundreds of incredibly bright players, have been pushed out of the game by the motivations of sheep not willing to fight for their gains but rather requiring the game designers to make concord invincible and secure their work in utter safety Imposed by game mechanics rather than their own capabilities. Then as soon as they put some gain in nullsec or low sec that isn't in high sec, the sheep start to bleat loudly yet again and CCP relents.

Personally I think all of the pvpers in the game should call for a truce and seal off low sec to all high sec sheep.
Muestereate
Minions LLC
#70 - 2013-07-14 15:41:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Muestereate
Originally agreed with some of the OP's opening statements but his Raielling Fussilade against the sheep brought to my attention that he was kinda ill. Probably side effects of repeated reanimation. Like a punch drunk fighter, I'm still inclined to respect him despite his now off target blows.

If you want to PVP you have to be willing to lose, someone mentioned that already to put it mildly. Therefore PVP is for losers. PVE'ers don't like to lose, there fore PVE is for winners. All killboard stats are lopsided. When everybody is in gangs, everybody ends up with incredibly high numbers by design of the deceitful math. Lyers are despreate losers, killboard stats are a lie, therefore PVPers are liars. Gangs of liars are losers that can't stand to look in a real mirror. Ive been in the bottom of gang fights with a woman hitting me with her high heal, she was a loser as all killmail whores are. Landing a shot in a gank of many versus one does not make you a winner, therefore gang muggers are losers. How else could it be? PVP is for losers.
Phaade
Proioxis Assault Force
Rogue Caldari Union
#71 - 2013-07-14 17:53:55 UTC
I get my target to half structure........


then his falcon alt lands.


That is why I can't solo pvp.
Alaric Faelen
Ascendance
Goonswarm Federation
#72 - 2013-07-14 18:10:12 UTC
Well said, Rells.

The core issue is always Risk vs Reward, which is badly broken in many areas. But none moreso than in the player's heads.

First there is the widespread problem of self-esteem being linked to performance in a video game. So that any loss whatsoever becomes a reflection on themselves and damages their ego. This is fostered by a PvE system that offers zero risk for massive reward, while individual PvP fights in Eve often have lots of risk for very little immediate reward. You are an all powerful god over entire fleets of NPC's, but at the mercy of some pirate in a Rifter....

The obsession over singular win/loss comes from people that have very little of either. The point of being immortal is that winning and losing is a numbers game. All PvP'ers lose ships and pods. People that PvP for a 'living' in Eve see it as a whole. It's not that I have never lost ships, it's that I have killed more than I've lost- or even that I killed more expensive ships than the ones I flew, or against specific people or groups....even on this level, PvP goes beyond singular win/loss futility. It's not dueling.

Secondly, there is scope to PvP. All that PvP happening in Fountain is for a reason- the land grab for R64 moons. It isn't just simply for the sake of generating a killmail. If you give PvP some depth this way, then loss isn't so clearly bad. The hero dictor pilot often dies very early in a fight, but his death isn't just a destroyed ship, he has bubbled an entire enemy fleet so that his fleet can fight, or flee. The Falcon that gets primaried into powder but not before taking out half the enemy's locks, has not simply 'lost'.

There being no point to PvP in Eve is a failing of the player, not the game.
Seven Koskanaiken
Shadow Legions.
#73 - 2013-07-14 18:25:34 UTC
Rells wrote:
Personally I think all of the pvpers in the game should call for a truce and seal off low sec to all high sec sheep.


Yeah...we're all with you up until heeeeeeere.........
Ace Uoweme
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#74 - 2013-07-14 18:37:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Ace Uoweme
Rells wrote:
The reality is that muche of the gravitation of the economy to high sec is the doing of the sheep. There was a time when you had to go to nullsec to get components to build high end items but the sheep bleated loudly and often and then megabyte got added to mission drops. CCP assured us that it was only small amounts and that we were being paranoid thinking they were destroying the nullsec economy.


And you ignore Technetium, which the Goons exploited, being only available in null.

0/10.

Balance is balance.

And why cannon fodder need not be in any leadership positions!

_"In a world of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act." _ ~George Orwell

AligatorVer1337
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#75 - 2013-07-14 18:56:59 UTC
Good read, true story.

It sucks when a high sec corp, who happens to use guns all the times to kill npc's can't kill a wardeccer who happens to be alone in his corp. Not that they can't kill but they're scared of their assets. That's just sad. This game isn't your real life where you can't **** up or you'd lose your job. Hell even in real life you are a person. Fight for yourself, fight for your right.





to paaaartyyyyy
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#76 - 2013-07-14 22:34:47 UTC
I don't think I'm wearing enough tinfoil to protect me from this mutton conspiracy...

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.

smokeAjoint
Catch And Release Privateering
#77 - 2013-07-15 00:14:15 UTC
Mann gegen Mann

is this off topic?

** legalize it**

Noluck Ned
Mystical Knights
Greater Solitude Commonwealth
#78 - 2013-07-15 02:41:00 UTC
I took one of the first agony classes somewhere back in mid 2006. Up until that time I had been mining and was getting bored stiff. Using what I had learned I took a 5 man frig gang out for a nullsec roam and managed to trap and kill a vagabond. After that my mining days were over and I never looked back.
Shedemei Silfar
Miskatonic Mercantile
#79 - 2013-07-15 03:13:14 UTC
To the OP:

Awesome post

to the rest of you that took issue with it and got into PvE vs PvP:

this is valuable information for people who WANT to PvP but think they can't. He wasn't talking about PvP vs PvE.

To the OP:

do you think you could teach people how to be effective board warriors? I mean... sheesh who wants to read all that shyte. Please can you teach them to be brief, and for the love of God, to have a freaking sense of humour? Then you would be even more legendary than for frig PvP ;)

Kyle Maltese
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#80 - 2013-07-15 07:44:11 UTC
You all cloister up in your own little sections of the game and proclaim that you're style of play is the best. The vast majority of you are fools. Fools, because you don't realize that not only are YOU right when you state your method of play is needed, but EVERYONE ELSE'S method is TOO.

- Carebears provide the infrastructure.

- Highsec bandits inject the risk that NEEDS to be there.

- Lowsec provides the demand for more powerful but slighty more expensive ships.

- Nullsec demands the big ships, capitals and supers.

If you think that carebears don't do their part to keep Eve running along, then you're an idiot who can't see past his nose. But it's more than simple distribution of resources. There's a scaling, a tutourial if you will, that takes place behind the scenes.

- Highsec fleets fight NPCs, while learning to work together. Doing missions, they learn how to manage resources, deal with multiple targets attacking them, deal with ECM and other basic tactics. Missions are easy because they're supposed to be. They're where you start

- Incursions provide players the trial by fire needed to hone their skills; you have a role and you play it or the house of cards falls down. It shows you how different doctrins work, how another player's skills are needed for your own skills to work to their fullest.

- Faction Warfare lets people test their skills in solo and small group PvP, leading up to larger fights on Ihubs and teaching people to deal with pirates and gate camps. They should have learned a role and how to play it when they were in highsec fleets and incursions, and the should have learned to listen to their FCs, or to be good FCs themselves. It also pushes the player out into soloing more through running complexes- teaches to keep your eye on the D-scan, evaluate situations and decide which fights are winnable and which ones aren't, and how to deal with escalation- because more hostile players could warp in at any time. It teaches awareness of not only the system you're in, but the surrounding systems too.

- Nullsec is the next level of these skills, leading up to large engagements dealing with many different mechanism inside the whole who all need to do their part or risk ships hundreds of times more expensive than theirs. It gives players who've mastered these skills a chance to carve out their own space.

- Wormhole takes a completely different turn, forcing you to be cautious and take risks that you couldn't have planned for. Large fleet engagements take days-weeks to set up, and there is no running back to safe territory if something goes wrong. WH space is the ultimate loner's paradise.


This is the tutourial built into the game itself; new players have every tool they need to learn to succeed. It's just that some find one thing and jump right into it, ignoring everything else. I'm not saying that nullsec or WH space or FW is better than anything else. I'm saying that they all require and teach skills that can't be found elsewhere; skills that every combat focused player should learn eventually.

Branch the **** out people. Specialization is for insects.