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Untrained Alts are better scouts than trained alts.

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Angrathar 'WrathGate' LichKing
Doomheim
#1 - 2013-07-14 02:46:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Angrathar 'WrathGate' LichKing
Hello my name is Angrathar 'WrathGate' LichKing.

I am here to expose some fairly major issues with the game-play mechanic called PVP.

I've been around for 10 days.

In 10 days scouting for fleet operations I have lost:
74 Reapers
47 Pods
(coincidence but a cool one Big smile)

I am here to expose that untrained ALTs are INCREDIBLY overpowered.

If I were to train up my skills and get in around a 10m ISK pod, and fly in about 10m isk scout ship my costs would be somewhat significant. Not to mention the impossible logistics of the matter.

740m in ships, 470m in clones.

1.21b in 10 days.

about 4.21b per month... just for basic scouting.

But thankfully I am way to smart to train any skills on a scouting alt or use a non-noob ship.

D-Scan works just as well at 53k SP as it does at 53m skill-points.
Clever use of tactical safes and bookmarks work just as well.

And these are the major components of a scout.

Now to answer some questions:
ANGRATHAR!!! you have no tank! how could you provide ANY level of Intel with so little ehp?
Gate Cloaks (60 seconds)
5k ISK clone relocation.
I have a microphone.
I have a built-in jump-drive with an unlimited range and no requirement for a cyno.

That last one is the most amazing, I can simply change my clone station, and scout several locations hundreds of jump apart for 5k isk. Its brilliant.

Sure but you don't contribute to any kills, you just die
If you strike me down now, I will become more powerful than you can possibly imagine.

Aggression against me not only prevents the use of stations and gates, but also triggers 400+ dps against my aggressor, then my fleet jumps in gets tackle, and often even in death I can top damage via gate guns.

I get it Angrathar your fcking brilliant why brag about it?
Because clone costs are why this character type is so much more powerful than a normal player, not to mention an endless supply of ships with a magical logistics chain to replace my losses.

My suggestion?
Limit newbie ships to 1 per hour.
Swap the 5k clone relocation cost and the clone replacement costs.
Add a timer to clone relocation. And maybe even a LY based distance requirement.

This will prevent Angrathar 'WrathGate" LichKing from being the superior scout, and SP will actually make the scouting profession better, not worse.
Verunae Caseti
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#2 - 2013-07-14 02:55:23 UTC
My suggestions?

Stop dying so much you're; an embarassment.
Xequecal
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#3 - 2013-07-14 02:57:29 UTC
Not a fan of this. It's already bad enough that surviving in low sec or 0.0 requires multiple accounts, now you're proposing that people have to pay for multiple accounts for months before they become useful.
Inokuma Yawara
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#4 - 2013-07-14 03:44:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Inokuma Yawara
It will add realism to the game (an oxymoron for a sci-fi mmo), and add a level, or levels, of difficulty. Hmmm... I LLLLIKE IT!! Big smile The more challenging the better!

Perhaps a good way to make scouting viable is to create an actual scouting class, with appropriate skills and a good light scout ship with appropriate skills and modules. No use of clone station relocations, but an actual scout class with skills that allow evasion techniques and equipment. Of course, that means that the electronic warfare guys will have to be on the ball looking for these scouts. It should be very difficult, but not impossible to hunt down a scout. Which means the scout will have to be clever to evade detection.

It'll be kind of like anti-submarine warfare destroyers searching for fast attack submarines.

I give my endorsement to this idea!

Watch this space.  New exciting signature in development.
Solutio Letum
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#5 - 2013-07-14 03:50:31 UTC
Wait scouts die?
GreenSeed
#6 - 2013-07-14 04:05:29 UTC
scouts die, all the time. but podded? even if you are scouting null gates, you have plenty of ways of evading... and bubble camps usually don't even require a scout, even the crappiest intel channels report them.
Elvis Fett
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#7 - 2013-07-14 04:35:16 UTC
Last time I checked noob ships can't equip Cover Ops Cloaking Devices. I don't know I didn't read the Odyssey patch notes yet, so maybe they slipped that change in there. If CCP didn't slip that change in, there is your reason to fly a ship besides a noob ship, cloaky eyes are lovely.
Intar Medris
KarmaFleet University
#8 - 2013-07-14 04:57:48 UTC
Wow look another brain dead idiot has come up with a brilliant idea, but posted it in the wrong forum. F&I it that way ---->

I try to be nice and mind my business just shooting lasers at rocks. There is just way too many asshats in New Eden for that to happen.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#9 - 2013-07-14 05:10:48 UTC  |  Edited by: baltec1
This isn't WOW. In this game we like our hour old newbees being useful.
Riot Girl
You'll Cowards Don't Even Smoke Crack
#10 - 2013-07-14 06:26:36 UTC
How can you lose that many scout ships? Are you repeatedly flying into the same insta-lock gatecamp?

Oh god.
Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
#11 - 2013-07-14 07:14:05 UTC
Quote:
Angrathar 'WrathGate' LichKing



I'm sure someone will tell you to go back to WoW but with a name like that, it looks like you never left.

Bring back DEEEEP Space!
Scatim Helicon
State War Academy
Caldari State
#12 - 2013-07-14 07:16:06 UTC
If you had trained into a covops and had some basic self-preservation knowledge you most likely wouldn't have died at all, and you wouldn't be alerting the people you are scouting of your presence by blundering into their gatecamps over and over.

Every time you post a WiS thread, Hilmar strangles a kitten.
grrlet
Leper Outcast Unclean
#13 - 2013-07-14 07:39:17 UTC  |  Edited by: grrlet
You guys are failing horribly at trying to insult this guy by saying he dies to much. If you read the OPs post, he dies on purpose so he can move to a different location and scout the next jump.

OP - Move Clone, Jump, Scout, Die (which engages gate guns)
Buddies - Jump, kill what he scouted.
OP - Move Clone, Undock, Jump, Scout, Die (which engages gate guns)
Buddies - Jump, kill what he scouted.
repeat over and over.

He has zero chance of failure and zero risk without having to make any sort of investment (training, stealthy ship, etc...) Those would just add risk and chances of failure potentially making his scouting less successful. Which is oddly backwards =)



Edit: added a point =)
DSpite Culhach
#14 - 2013-07-14 07:59:42 UTC
I love how so many people, rather then point out to CCP that so many existing rules in the EVE universe make no sense to start with, actually suggest that the rules that make no sense should in fact be patched with more rules that make no sense.

EVE is a massive tangle of rules to stop idiots doing things so idiotic that they would end up annoying too many people that are actually playing - and more importantly, PAYING, for some entertainment. We all know this, so why add to that tangle?





I apparently have no idea what I'm doing.
Templar Knightsbane
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#15 - 2013-07-14 09:51:59 UTC
Scout = Ok
Scout who can cloak = Good
Scout who can cloak and combat probe = Really Good
Scout who can cloak, combat probe, point, tank and boost = Amazing
Matt Petirov
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#16 - 2013-07-14 10:44:42 UTC
Verunae Caseti wrote:
My suggestions?

Stop dying so much you're; an embarassment.


lol'd +1
Yusef Brion
Big Yellow Pidgeon Inc.
#17 - 2013-07-14 11:04:52 UTC
Angrathar 'WrathGate' LichKing wrote:

Aggression against me not only prevents the use of stations and gates, but also triggers 400+ dps against my aggressor, then my fleet jumps in gets tackle, and often even in death I can top damage via gate guns.

I get it Angrathar your fcking brilliant why brag about it?
Because clone costs are why this character type is so much more powerful than a normal player, not to mention an endless supply of ships with a magical logistics chain to replace my losses.

My suggestion?
Limit newbie ships to 1 per hour.
Swap the 5k clone relocation cost and the clone replacement costs.
Add a timer to clone relocation. And maybe even a LY based distance requirement.

This will prevent Angrathar 'WrathGate" LichKing from being the superior scout, and SP will actually make the scouting profession better, not worse.


I think you make a good point, but I have invited some really bad people to play this game. (I'm sorry to everyone else, they are really bad at eve, no joke) Some people must be burned repeatedly before they learn not to touch the stove. I can't agree with you on the noob ship limit. I think your other suggestions have some merit though. I've always thought that is the reason they don't let you log two characters on the same acct at the same time; everyone would be multiboxing with an untrained scout one jump in front of them.

grrlet wrote:
You guys are failing horribly at trying to insult this guy by saying he dies to much. If you read the OPs post, he dies on purpose so he can move to a different location and scout the next jump.


To be clear: I am speaking of myself, not talking about you sarcastically.
I have been on the internet forever, but I still have a lot of trouble discerning a sarcastic post that agrees with the OP but can find no solution, from a post that is making fun of OP while completely missing the point. I think this robs me of some of the enjoyment others feel at making or reading posts of this nature.

Back on point though, he is making some investment, grrlet, because it costs to move even an untrained clone, yes? The problem is that the investment is miniscule compared to the payoff for his fleet.

I do question your motives, Angrathar. If this tactic works so well for you, why expose it?

The more I read the forums over the years, the more I swear. To god. That the typos are intentional mistakes. Part o f the encryption.
Khanh'rhh
Sparkle Motion.
#18 - 2013-07-14 12:20:59 UTC
Scatim Helicon wrote:
If you had trained into a covops and had some basic self-preservation knowledge you most likely wouldn't have died at all, and you wouldn't be alerting the people you are scouting of your presence by blundering into their gatecamps over and over.

This right here. I can't even remember the last time I lost a scout ship. Even my hero-tackle Cheetah went down with a ~50:1 K/D

You seem to be just jumping into a system and dying - this is an incredibly poor form of scouting for a massive number of reasons and there's no need to nerf being bad at the game.

If you were even partially competent you would be cloaked, reporting not the gang on the gate, but the composition of their backup one system away, and how long your guys have before they get there.

If you're actually only 10 days into the game, then for mercies sake learn the game before you suggest changes.

"Do not touch anything unnecessarily. Beware of pretty girls in dance halls and parks who may be spies, as well as bicycles, revolvers, uniforms, arms, dead horses, and men lying on roads -- they are not there accidentally." -Soviet infantry manual,

Angrathar 'WrathGate' LichKing
Doomheim
#19 - 2013-07-14 23:25:30 UTC
Khanh'rhh wrote:
Blah.


The advantages of high SP do not outweigh the advantages of no SP,

Yet another overpowered ability is the name change.

I will be biomassing and starting off with a clean identity.

Try that with your 50m skill point "scout".
Beekeeper Bob
Beekeepers Anonymous
#20 - 2013-07-15 00:01:15 UTC
Angrathar 'WrathGate' LichKing wrote:
Hello my name is Angrathar 'WrathGate' LichKing.

I am here to expose some fairly major issues with the game-play mechanic called PVP.

I've been around for 10 days.

In 10 days scouting for fleet operations I have lost:
74 Reapers
47 Pods
(coincidence but a cool one Big smile)

I am here to expose that untrained ALTs are INCREDIBLY overpowered.

If I were to train up my skills and get in around a 10m ISK pod, and fly in about 10m isk scout ship my costs would be somewhat significant. Not to mention the impossible logistics of the matter.

740m in ships, 470m in clones.

1.21b in 10 days.

about 4.21b per month... just for basic scouting.

But thankfully I am way to smart to train any skills on a scouting alt or use a non-noob ship.

D-Scan works just as well at 53k SP as it does at 53m skill-points.
Clever use of tactical safes and bookmarks work just as well.

And these are the major components of a scout.

Now to answer some questions:
ANGRATHAR!!! you have no tank! how could you provide ANY level of Intel with so little ehp?
Gate Cloaks (60 seconds)
5k ISK clone relocation.
I have a microphone.
I have a built-in jump-drive with an unlimited range and no requirement for a cyno.

That last one is the most amazing, I can simply change my clone station, and scout several locations hundreds of jump apart for 5k isk. Its brilliant.

Sure but you don't contribute to any kills, you just die
If you strike me down now, I will become more powerful than you can possibly imagine.

Aggression against me not only prevents the use of stations and gates, but also triggers 400+ dps against my aggressor, then my fleet jumps in gets tackle, and often even in death I can top damage via gate guns.

I get it Angrathar your fcking brilliant why brag about it?
Because clone costs are why this character type is so much more powerful than a normal player, not to mention an endless supply of ships with a magical logistics chain to replace my losses.

My suggestion?
Limit newbie ships to 1 per hour.
Swap the 5k clone relocation cost and the clone replacement costs.
Add a timer to clone relocation. And maybe even a LY based distance requirement.

This will prevent Angrathar 'WrathGate" LichKing from being the superior scout, and SP will actually make the scouting profession better, not worse.


You understand that spotter alts work better if they can cloak and stay alive...right?

Signature removed - CCP Eterne
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