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Why some people in Eve cant do PvP
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Ace Uoweme
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#21 - 2013-07-13 11:38:37 UTC
Rells wrote:
There is one clear reason why people in Eve cant do PvP. The simple reason is because they believe they can't.


All those words to mean: PvErs don't care to PvP.

Why?

They're not mouth breathers.

They see more in a game than for a "challenge" of -- more gank, less tank.

The only people giving PvP a bad name are the players playing it. When PvErs see PvPers -- with the stats -- to prove they are more than opportunists and cheap shotters hiding in some blob, then they might take it more seriously.

Just look at the incursions for an example. It's modeled after raids (which is PvE). Even the same mentality of higher skills and pimped out ships. It's about showing their progress, skills and getting rewarded for putting effort in to get both. It's not about cheap dessies with ions, it's about arriving and knowing your role and abilities in a fleet at a top level. Don't have level 5 skills or that pimped ship for pure DPS or Logi or tank, go back to gatecamping where you belong.

PvP =/= PvE when it comes to fighting even.

When I'm doing missions, I'm not in them to "escape PvP", I'm in them to learn max DPS and max tank. Because for me incursions is what I'd prefer to do, as that's what PvErs consider a "challenge". Not ganking newbs with ion blasters, then claiming to be pros (or hoping to get another gank if they have a maxed toon, as they don't do it without backup).

This is why I admire BL. Any two bit PvPer can kill a newb. It takes a much higher level PvPer to dive in and kill choice targets like the Special Forces do it (by the numbers). And they don't hang around to BS in local like 15 year-old bads. They get in do their job, and off the go to other targets. Pros.

If you're not going to play at a higher level, don't make excuses of why PvErs don't PvP. They see the usual junk that's regarded as "PvP". Not challenging. Bunch of horseplay. Pure waste of time, effort and even skills (if you seen them in raids, especially the mouth breathing type standing in fire, oh heck no, they can keep their PvP).

If I was to PvP in EvE, it'll be BL style nothing less. Otherwise, NPCs are more interesting than the mouth breathing BS that passes for PvP. Oh, they can gab, but at the end of the day what they have to show for it? A killmail full of killing pods?

I'll leave what passes for the usual PvP for the children.

_"In a world of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act." _ ~George Orwell
Obunagawe
#22 - 2013-07-13 11:43:13 UTC
Ace Uoweme wrote:

If I was to PvP in EvE, it'll be BL style nothing less. Otherwise, NPCs are more interesting than the mouth breathing BS that passes for PvP. Oh, they can gab, but at the end of the day what they have to show for it? A killmail full of killing pods?



But people who haven't PVPed (or hell, even if they have) can not get into BL. So yeah.
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#23 - 2013-07-13 11:58:37 UTC
While I agree with the OP, there are lots of solo players in EVE - and PvP isn't conducive to solo play. Faction Warfare is probably the closest to "unofficial" team play, but not everyone likes getting shot at randomly in high-sec, either. There's an underlying mentality with the people that inhabit low and null-sec, and this frenzied "FFA" play style is what discourages many players from venturing out from high-sec. You reap what you sow, and if PvP consists of players basically ganking and gate-camping every entrance into low-sec from high-sec - it's going to be lonely times, indeed.

The solution for increased PvP is a new game mechanic. Something like a tribute system whereby groups of players could "occupy" any gate into low-sec that would force an "entrance fee" -or- enter at your own risk. This would be optional and they could simply gate-camp as previous, too. The fee would entitle you to a set period of invulnerability from said corporation for the duration of your stay in that system. The fun would be in trying to find unguarded gates, sneaking in to run the blockades - and of course - outstaying your welcome.

Just a thought.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Rells
Lethal Riposte
#24 - 2013-07-13 13:52:45 UTC
I see so many excuses in this thread.

Excuse: "You cant PvP if you are solo!"
Rebuttal: You can and it is some of the most fun PvP around. You have to think out of the box and adapt your tactics to the situation. I have spent hours sitting off gates in a lonely T1 itty bitty frigate waiting for interceptors to bite on the bait. I have set up traps at planets that have killed entire frig squads in one shot. I have taken out tech 2 cruisers with tech 1 cruisers. Again you are spending all your time on the word "CAN'T". To solo pvp you have to understand the psychology of your opponent and then adapt your strategy to fit it.

Excuse: "I dont know how!"
Rebuttal: So learn then. Or figure it out. No one held my hand. When I started agony they all laughed and said it couldn't be done. They mocked us in local. The more of their ships we blew up the more they mocked. They had to have some outlet for the damage we were doing to their pretty ships.

And forget any corp that has you join to learn. Those corps used to (and possibly still do ... I dont know) send their pilots to Agony to learn. Agony unleashed demands a decent fee (though isk per hour wise it is pathetic) to take a course. We succeeded by offering quality experiences to our customers. "University" corps are almost always disorganized with some semblance of self-teaching and they might take you out on a roam. Agony puts pilots through hours of classroom work and then takes them out and shows them a coordinated fleet action. For the expereinced agony pilots its a bit like herding cats on PvP Basic. They are much more used to experienced pilots but it also damn fun to see some veteran with a ship just slightly smaller than his ego get blown up by a bunch of t1 frigs.

Excuse: "I just want to be left alone!!"
Rebuttal: You are the sheep I was referring to. The funny thing about sheep is that they bleet rather loudly. When they come on the forums they are nasty, with sharp insults for all who dare stand in the way of their "Epic quest" and uber ship of death. Yet in game they quake at the smallest risk and grind it out in interminable boredom. Sometimes, few times, I feel sorry for them.

The sheep flock to games like Eve was in the first years and try to turn them into WOW. They burn through content and then complain to the game company that they are out of content. They dont go make their way, they dont push the boundaries, they like to be comfortable and secure. And they also make judgements about other people for what they do in a video game. The sheep call the pvpers "murderer wannabes" and "psychotic" and so on. They have lost all perspective.

I have no problem killing sheep because they are beneath my notice and mutton tastes yummy when its cooked right.

Yes, in 2004 on my old character I was one of those evil pirates. My old character has the distinction of being among the few pilots that helped participate in the wiping out of concord in the old market hub of Yulai back when concord wasn't invincible.

Sheep are good for one thing. Consuming.

I have more respect for the smallest rookie pvping in his Rifter than I have for the sheep with the biggest ship and shinyest toys. They arent carebears. The old cartoon Carebears would fight for love and respect with their powers. The players I speak of are just sheep. Run of the mill, boring sheep.
Ace Uoweme
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#25 - 2013-07-13 13:54:55 UTC
Obunagawe wrote:
Ace Uoweme wrote:

If I was to PvP in EvE, it'll be BL style nothing less. Otherwise, NPCs are more interesting than the mouth breathing BS that passes for PvP. Oh, they can gab, but at the end of the day what they have to show for it? A killmail full of killing pods?



But people who haven't PVPed (or hell, even if they have) can not get into BL. So yeah.


:shakes head:

If you didn't get the message (it's about top skills and abilities), you'll never truly understand what PvErs look for and play for, and why PvP is looked at as "easier".

Progression for PvE types is questing; dungeoning; then raiding. Steady progression as their skills evolve and the content grows tougher. You don't just hop into a level 90 raid at level 10 and expect to survive 10 seconds, for example (heck, can't even get into them, they're level locked and iLevel locked anyway to prevent carrieds getting carried). You put your time in, learning the roles, your abilities so when you're at level 90 (or in EvE have the necessary level 5 skills and fly the specialized ships) you're ready to perform at the HIGHEST LEVEL.

To a PvPer missions are a waste of time, it's jumping in to pewpewpew that matters.

PvErs don't play like that, as their progression is a smooth curve. The only PvP that even resembles PvE is at the highest level - and because they finally got it, what that level 10 quester learns in his progression - organization and skills matter.

Getting into BL wasn't the point. The point is they're admired because they're at the pro level, which is like heroic raiders or avatar hunters. Not the gatecamping wannabe. They prove that they're good at what they do. That's what PvErs admire and try to get through in their progression. Everything else isn't worth the time, it's only the "end-game" that matters. Which in EvE is maxing out their skills and being a incursion runner, with their skillz and tricked out ships.

PvPers consider the reason PvErs don't want to PvP is they're afraid of dying. Nope (ask any raider how many times they die on a boss, especially during progression runs). It's the fear of getting behind on that progression curve.

If I lose a ship to a PvPer I don't even have time to cry or mourn the loss, I hop into another ship and doing what I was doing before. I got to get XYZ done, and now. If camped, login with another toon to do it at another location. The PvPer is gloating over it all stroking his ePeen, because he has nothing else to play for. He'll always be behind.

"Time is money, friend".

Until folks understand that, I'm not surprised of these threads.

_"In a world of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act." _ ~George Orwell
Rells
Lethal Riposte
#26 - 2013-07-13 14:02:52 UTC
Ace Uoweme wrote:

"Time is money, friend".

Until folks understand that, I'm not surprised of these threads.


Its a video game. If you want ot make money, log off and go do something productive.
Evei Shard
Shard Industries
#27 - 2013-07-13 14:15:55 UTC
There are thousands of games available to the average PvE player. Many of them have PvP aspects. Something that always gets glossed over (deliberately I suspect) is that Eve is one of the best games in the industry, and it is the #1 science fiction "space game" that you can play right now.
This is going to attract a *lot* of people who have no interest in the killmail-PvP aspect of the game.
They are going to look at Eve and say "ug, the non-consentual PvP is a pain, but the rest of the game is just awesome", and they are going to go headlong into the game to try and make it without killmail-PvP.

They aren't "risk averse". They aren't "sheep". They are people who want to play a well made space based game and have fun doing so. Their only realistic option in regards to quality, depth, options, and so on, is Eve Online. Everything else pales in comparison.

They put up with killmail-PvP, because the PvE in Eve is worth it to them.

Profit favors the prepared
Seven Koskanaiken
Shadow Legions.
#28 - 2013-07-13 14:24:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Seven Koskanaiken
Evei Shard wrote:
There are thousands of games available to the average PvE player. Many of them have PvP aspects. Something that always gets glossed over (deliberately I suspect) is that Eve is one of the best games in the industry, and it is the #1 science fiction "space game" that you can play right now.
This is going to attract a *lot* of people who have no interest in the killmail-PvP aspect of the game.
They are going to look at Eve and say "ug, the non-consentual PvP is a pain, but the rest of the game is just awesome", and they are going to go headlong into the game to try and make it without killmail-PvP.

They aren't "risk averse". They aren't "sheep". They are people who want to play a well made space based game and have fun doing so. Their only realistic option in regards to quality, depth, options, and so on, is Eve Online. Everything else pales in comparison.

They put up with killmail-PvP, because the PvE in Eve is worth it to them.


Some would argue that Eve is not a space game, but that it's an economic and social simulator with some space crap thrown on top.
Ace Uoweme
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#29 - 2013-07-13 14:35:43 UTC
Rells wrote:
Ace Uoweme wrote:

"Time is money, friend".

Until folks understand that, I'm not surprised of these threads.


Its a video game. If you want ot make money, log off and go do something productive.


10/10 for trolling to get 3 votes.

That in itself I rest my case on the average intelligence of a PvPer -- if it's not painted, pointed and flashing as the new gate animation, they still couldn't understand what they're even talking about.

ShockedLolBear

_"In a world of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act." _ ~George Orwell
Alpheias
The Khaleph
#30 - 2013-07-13 14:37:14 UTC
Ace Uoweme wrote:
Rells wrote:
Ace Uoweme wrote:

"Time is money, friend".

Until folks understand that, I'm not surprised of these threads.


Its a video game. If you want ot make money, log off and go do something productive.


10/10 for trolling to get 3 votes.

That in itself I rest my case on the average intelligence of a PvPer -- if it's not painted, pointed and flashing as the new gate animation, they still couldn't understand what they're even talking about.

ShockedLolBear


I don't think he was trolling. I think he was being brutally honest.

Agent of Chaos, Sower of Discord.

Don't talk to me unless you are IQ verified and certified with three references from non-family members. Please have your certificate of authenticity on hand.
Carlitos Udan
Doomheim
#31 - 2013-07-13 14:49:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Carlitos Udan
Rells wrote:
wall of text here.


I agree. My alt was a mission runner for years until he got into a PVP group not but several months ago. I was worried that I would be massacred as not a day later, our little corp declared war on another corporation who proceeded to bring in a professional mercenary alliance to keep us occupied.

Skip to several weeks later as 3 of us, with only our CEO being the professional PVP'er went in against two of the alliances professional pilots with outclassed weaponry (as far as I know, only our CEO was using T2 weapons).

A minute in and our CEO's hurricane was dust, having been a priority target yet me and my remaining fellow pilot kept at it until by some fluke, we'd destroyed the two enemy ships. Now I'm working on setting up a division to carry out Kill right attacks for players ill equipped to collect on them and looking back, I realise that not a week ago, I would have cowered in station the minute those wartargets came into local.

Now I'd be more then happy to go in with my fellow corpmates and punch up some kills for our board.

Everyone can do PVP if they get support to practise, fits to use as references to build their ships and help from their fellow players and if they do get that, they'll learn to love it.
Yusef Brion
Big Yellow Pidgeon Inc.
#32 - 2013-07-13 15:08:58 UTC
Rells wrote:
I have no respect for sheep. But i have the highest respect for the small little wolverine that makes the grizly bear think "im not THAT hungry"

In there lies the key. Winning in Eve isnt a matter of skill points or isk. Its a matter of intelligence, understanding of psychology and proficiency at the arts of war.


I wasn't with you at first, but you are quite the salesman. Grand finale.

The more I read the forums over the years, the more I swear. To god. That the typos are intentional mistakes. Part o f the encryption.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#33 - 2013-07-13 15:10:49 UTC
Evei Shard wrote:
There are thousands of games available to the average PvE player. Many of them have PvP aspects. Something that always gets glossed over (deliberately I suspect) is that Eve is one of the best games in the industry, and it is the #1 science fiction "space game" that you can play right now.
This is going to attract a *lot* of people who have no interest in the killmail-PvP aspect of the game.
They are going to look at Eve and say "ug, the non-consentual PvP is a pain, but the rest of the game is just awesome", and they are going to go headlong into the game to try and make it without killmail-PvP.

They aren't "risk averse". They aren't "sheep". They are people who want to play a well made space based game and have fun doing so. Their only realistic option in regards to quality, depth, options, and so on, is Eve Online. Everything else pales in comparison.

They put up with killmail-PvP, because the PvE in Eve is worth it to them.


Sorry, but that's just about the definition we use of "risk averse" "sheep" and I'll go ahead and add "carebear", "pubbie" and "casual" in there too.

You're right about one thing though. If that kind of player wants to play EVE, they do have to tolerate PvP players. Because this is their game. This is the game for everyone who liked Ultima Online the way it was before QQ from the casuals killed it. This the game for people who like to not have to sit through whatever panda-themed half assed storyline some hemp smoking crab-gif addict in Irvine, CA decided to cram down our throats. This is the game for people who believe that PvP isn't just some 14 year old kid with haxx screaming obscenities at you in a twitchy regurgitation of the latest fps on Xbox Live.

This is our game.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Doc Severide
Doomheim
#34 - 2013-07-13 15:53:28 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
You're right about one thing though. If that kind of player wants to play EVE, they do have to tolerate PvP players. Because this is their game.
Bullshit, this is not any one persons style of play game. This game has much much more to offer beyond PVP. If it wasn't for lowly miners and manufacturing players, you wouldn't have anything to PVP with. If it wasn't for PVP'ers they wouldn't have anyone to sell their products to. There is a symbiotic relationship between all professions in EVE but too many arrogant PVPers think EVE is only about / for them...

Everyone is always repeating the mantra "Don't Trust Anyone" ad nauseum... If I can't trust the guys I play with, why bother playing with them at all? Fly Solo...
Cannibal Kane
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#35 - 2013-07-13 16:14:27 UTC
When I started EVE...

I believe I could fly... I believed i could touch the sky... and killed a Drake with many others in lowsec. Which got me hooked on PVP.

However.. i know people that play EVE not for PVP. And it is not because they think they can't. They just dont want to.

"Kane is the End Boss of Highsec." -Psychotic Monk
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#36 - 2013-07-13 16:52:25 UTC
Doc Severide wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
You're right about one thing though. If that kind of player wants to play EVE, they do have to tolerate PvP players. Because this is their game.
Bullshit, this is not any one persons style of play game. This game has much much more to offer beyond PVP. If it wasn't for lowly miners and manufacturing players, you wouldn't have anything to PVP with. If it wasn't for PVP'ers they wouldn't have anyone to sell their products to. There is a symbiotic relationship between all professions in EVE but too many arrogant PVPers think EVE is only about / for them...


I love how this is always the rallying cry of the ganked. "Yeah, well, we make your ships and pvp possible in the first place!" No, you don't. Because, guess what? The minute any of the sheep get fed up enough to declare loudly that they are taking their ball and going home(like the children they are), the marketeers, who are the people who do matter in all of this, will swoop in and take advantage of any holes in the economic viability of an area.

Someone else with thicker skin will deal with the realities of the game. Someone else will sell me my stuff. Hilariously, that someone will make a better profit now that Sheep #412 has quit because of the big, bad PvP bullies. That's capitalism, and it's why the sheep don't matter to anyone but themselves. All the sheep do is inflate the amount of isk in circulation.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Beekeeper Bob
Beekeepers Anonymous
#37 - 2013-07-13 17:06:01 UTC
TLDR, And congrats on knowing everything about everyone....Oops

Signature removed - CCP Eterne
Xen Solarus
Furious Destruction and Salvage
#38 - 2013-07-13 18:35:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Xen Solarus
Jorden Ishonen wrote:

In a game where anyone can explode you, at any time, not being prepared for the eventuality is rather silly. If someone doesn't want to do combat PvP, that's fine and their choice. They just need to know how to a. minimize risks of getting blown up and b. accept loss when it eventually does happen.

As for PvPers preferring helpless targets, of course they do! A few seconds of work, and BAM, free loot. Does that mean they shrink from a fair fight? Not necessarily. But if you don't do anything make yourself a wolverine, like the OP says, then you have no one to blame but yourself if you get devoured like the weak sheep you are.


Oh i completely agree. Clicking the undock button might as well come with a warning that death can and probably will occur. But i also believe that people in highsec should make the natural progression from high to low and null. EvE's learning curve is like a mountain, and highsec is an important area that allows newer players to get the feel for the game in "relative" safety to the other more dangerous areas.

Personally, i think this is where things are going wrong. With more and more "supposed" PvP players just using highsec as their hunting ground, the risk vs reward of moving to the other areas don't match up. If these players are already having issues in the area that supposed to be alot safer, then there is absolutely no incentive to move to the more dangerous places. The risk of lowsec is insanely high when compared to the reward. Might as well stay in highsec. Thus, pirates are one of the causes of the problem, and they have turned lowsec into a wasteland of their own creation. Only the lucky few make the sensible move to the blue donut, where the risk is low and the rewards high.

I still find it funny when i see people bang on with their highsec hating rhetoric, seemingly to justify ganking anything in sight that doesn't actually pose a threat, whilst simultaneously encouraging the very people they rant about to stay exactly where they are.

I'd suggest they go to the areas where the "real" PvP is occuring, but then they'd have to deal with players that actually shoot back! Where would the fun be in that?? Shocked

Post with your main, like a BOSS!

And no, i don't live in highsec.  As if that would make your opinion any less wrong.  
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#39 - 2013-07-13 18:55:43 UTC
Xen Solarus wrote:
Jorden Ishonen wrote:

In a game where anyone can explode you, at any time, not being prepared for the eventuality is rather silly. If someone doesn't want to do combat PvP, that's fine and their choice. They just need to know how to a. minimize risks of getting blown up and b. accept loss when it eventually does happen.

As for PvPers preferring helpless targets, of course they do! A few seconds of work, and BAM, free loot. Does that mean they shrink from a fair fight? Not necessarily. But if you don't do anything make yourself a wolverine, like the OP says, then you have no one to blame but yourself if you get devoured like the weak sheep you are.


Oh i completely agree. Clicking the undock button might as well come with a warning that death can and probably will occur. But i also believe that people in highsec should make the natural progression from high to low and null. EvE's learning curve is like a mountain, and highsec is an important area that allows newer players to get the feel for the game in "relative" safety to the other more dangerous areas.

Personally, i think this is where things are going wrong. With more and more "supposed" PvP players just using highsec as their hunting ground, the risk vs reward of moving to the other areas don't match up. If these players are already having issues in the area that supposed to be alot safer, then there is absolutely no incentive to move to the more dangerous places. The risk of lowsec is insanely high when compared to the reward. Might as well stay in highsec. Thus, pirates are one of the causes of the problem, and they have turned lowsec into a wasteland of their own creation. Only the lucky few make the sensible move to the blue donut, where the risk is low and the rewards high.

I still find it funny when i see people bang on with their highsec hating rhetoric, seemingly to justify ganking anything in sight that doesn't actually pose a threat, whilst simultaneously encouraging the very people they rant about to stay exactly where they are.

I'd suggest they go to the areas where the "real" PvP is occuring, but then they'd have to deal with players that actually shoot back! Where would the fun be in that?? Shocked


Seems to me, that this is more of a "chicken and egg" kind of circumstance.

An argument can easily be made that people are turning highsec into a hunting ground lately for the very reason that the risk averse avoid lowsec in the first place. So, they go to where there is a large number of viable targets.

In Arizona, they have a lot of mountain lions living in the hills and mountains in the southern part of the state. In the summer months when the food gets more sparce, they move into the lower elevation areas and start picking off herds in the farmlands. Once they get some food, they got back to the mountains until they get hungry again. They'll hunt where the prey is, regardless.

Same thing here.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Seven Koskanaiken
Shadow Legions.
#40 - 2013-07-13 19:44:32 UTC
Xen Solarus wrote:

Personally, i think this is where things are going wrong. With more and more "supposed" PvP players just using highsec as their hunting ground, the risk vs reward of moving to the other areas don't match up. If these players are already having issues in the area that supposed to be alot safer, then there is absolutely no incentive to move to the more dangerous places. The risk of lowsec is insanely high when compared to the reward. Might as well stay in highsec. Thus, pirates are one of the causes of the problem, and they have turned lowsec into a wasteland of their own creation. Only the lucky few make the sensible move to the blue donut, where the risk is low and the rewards high.


So the only people on the risk side of the equation in hisec leave and that...somehow provides more incentive for those avoiding risk to leave hisec...what.....