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What is PVP to you and why do you like it?

Author
Cpt Arareb
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#21 - 2013-07-12 22:36:51 UTC
pvp for me is solo/ micro gang pvp
Skeln Thargensen
Doomheim
#22 - 2013-07-12 22:37:55 UTC
Alavaria wrote:
Skeln Thargensen wrote:
I'm pretty new to PvP myself. I mostly enjoy skulking around in my SB looking for soft targets or black ops fleets.

PvP has taken a new turn in which I shoot torpedos at TEST Alliance Please Ignore (and various pets) structures.

I hear it "generates content" for them when they need to show up for the resulting timer.


i hear you guys generated a lot of content for a bomber recently.

i can only commend this.

forums.  serious business.

Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#23 - 2013-07-12 22:40:27 UTC
Robert Saint wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:


To me, a kill is a kill. It means someone failed, and/or someone succeeded. Whether I succeeded in scouting him out and hunting him down with my gang, or whether I beat him straight up, it's still a kill.

Most people don't take the thought into account that there are a lot of factors besides "Oh they just had more people". No. They were better prepared than you, they batphoned faster/more efficiently than you did, they had a better fleet comp.

Or, you just didn't watch where you were going. A failure on your part is as good as a success on your adversary's part.

[Edit: Also, I reject the concept of equality as far it goes to "fair fights". No fights are fair and equal, except things like chess. And chess is boring as hell. Things being mixed up, different capabilities across the board, that's what make thing interesting.



That's a Fair answer.... although I do not agree with the weighted value/thrill of the kill as you do.
My nephew thinks as you do, and he's a good kid.



So, if I understand you correctly, you find more gratification in say, a 1v1 frigate/cruiser/whatever fight than in a gang roam killing singles? Fair enough, certainly.

I find as much gratification getting on comms, rolling out with the bros and going to make somebody have a bad day, whoever is unlucky enough to get caught, lol. As far as PvP goes, I have always believed in "different strokes".

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.

Robert Saint
The Grumpy Dogs
#24 - 2013-07-12 22:42:33 UTC
Ace Uoweme wrote:
PvP to me is the classic FPS definition: Player (human) vs Player (human) duking it out on a battlefield.



I've read many of your posts and you seem to find value in the match up?
Like any good superhero story, it's boring if one side is too OP..

Where in EVE can you find a good match up, where you feel it was a good fight and not a "gank", but one where you and your opponent chat afterwards about the battle. Is there a magic place for this?
Riot Girl
You'll Cowards Don't Even Smoke Crack
#25 - 2013-07-12 22:45:54 UTC
Robert Saint wrote:
one where you and your opponent chat afterwards about the battle. Is there a magic place for this?
No, Horde and Alliance aren't allowed to talk to eachother in case they hurt each other's feelings by saying mean things.
Samillian
Angry Mustellid
Lost Obsession
#26 - 2013-07-12 22:46:59 UTC
ZOOMDAKADAKDAKDA 'SPLODE!!!!!

Yup.....I think that covers it.

NBSI shall be the whole of the Law

Robert Saint
The Grumpy Dogs
#27 - 2013-07-12 22:49:08 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:


So, if I understand you correctly, you find more gratification in say, a 1v1 frigate/cruiser/whatever fight than in a gang roam killing singles? Fair enough, certainly.

I find as much gratification getting on comms, rolling out with the bros and going to make somebody have a bad day, whoever is unlucky enough to get caught, lol. As far as PvP goes, I have always believed in "different strokes".


I get the kicks factor you are talking about, and EVE certainly has that part covered.

It's the game of minds I find most challenging though in a PVP experience, chess or spaceships.
If you don't want a challenge, then roam with a gang looking for solos to own. If you get lucky, you will find another gang and then you have a real challenge or at least close to it. I would argue the later is much more memorable to your game play and gets a rewind moment in local.


Jyuno Terkar
Bundeswehr Securities
#28 - 2013-07-12 22:52:19 UTC
PvP to me is a means to an end. I enjoy PvP when it's in pursuit of something, not just for the sake of doing it. What that PvP can be is many things, running from the honorable 1v1 to the ganks, from the small gang warfare to the blob, miners competing for asteroids to the traders selling it on the market.
Carribean Queen
Vadimus Quarrier Works
#29 - 2013-07-12 23:26:16 UTC
PVP, or also known as Player Vs. Penis occurs after getting blue balled multiple times by FW people who cloak and/or stab their ships. The only option to repair this is vigorous masturbation.
Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#30 - 2013-07-12 23:35:37 UTC
It's something that lost ym interest slowly but surely ever since it became apaprent that a **** ton of people who participate in it spend more time/energy **** talking than actually playing the game. Win ro lose, success or defeat, you will always find someone to question your sexuality or insult your mother. I'm playing video games to chill and let the BS of a real life day go out. Not to have yet another kind fo BS to deal with.

I don't mean to say everybody is like that of course but the bad apples are still numerous. I let the people interested have fun at it and they can even interact with me when the game rules permit it but I am not really actively looking for it.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#31 - 2013-07-12 23:42:01 UTC
Robert Saint wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:


So, if I understand you correctly, you find more gratification in say, a 1v1 frigate/cruiser/whatever fight than in a gang roam killing singles? Fair enough, certainly.

I find as much gratification getting on comms, rolling out with the bros and going to make somebody have a bad day, whoever is unlucky enough to get caught, lol. As far as PvP goes, I have always believed in "different strokes".


I get the kicks factor you are talking about, and EVE certainly has that part covered.

It's the game of minds I find most challenging though in a PVP experience, chess or spaceships.
If you don't want a challenge, then roam with a gang looking for solos to own. If you get lucky, you will find another gang and then you have a real challenge or at least close to it. I would argue the later is much more memorable to your game play and gets a rewind moment in local.




Ah, so you objected to my chess comment then, that makes sense.

It isn't that I have no aptitude for it, merely that I do not, nor have I ever, found chess to be challenging/enjoyable for the challenge. Particularly since, by the 5th or 6th move of the game, the game has been determined. The rest of it is just the losing player figuring it out eventually. Same reason I hate StarCraft-style RTS games, they are so build order oriented that the game is won or lost before the players even make contact. It just rubs me the wrong way.

Yeah, perhaps gang roaming isn't a challenge when you jump on one guy. But it is PvP, and it's part of what I consider to be fun about it. It is always particularly good fun when you manage to jump another gang. Funny enough though, even flying a 7-8 man cruiser gang, I have seen even battlecruiser gangs twice our size scatter just because we managed to jump to 0 on them. (scouting RULES)

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.

Ace Uoweme
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#32 - 2013-07-13 01:07:14 UTC
Robert Saint wrote:
Ace Uoweme wrote:
PvP to me is the classic FPS definition: Player (human) vs Player (human) duking it out on a battlefield.



I've read many of your posts and you seem to find value in the match up?
Like any good superhero story, it's boring if one side is too OP..

Where in EVE can you find a good match up, where you feel it was a good fight and not a "gank", but one where you and your opponent chat afterwards about the battle. Is there a magic place for this?


EvE isn't a good "match up", considering it's a skills game, but quickly throws it away to make it like a FPS game.

In FPS games they have gear normalization. You can unlock more powerful weapons, but that buck private can kill a general with his pistol just as easy as the general can with an AK-47. That is how EvE operates in fighting mechanics.

In WoW, gear matters along with skill. To "match up" in arenas you are rated by the difficulty of your opponents based on previous wins. Kill a team with higher MMR, your rating goes up and vice versa if you're defeated. The odds are that the higher MMR players will win, because not only gear matters (top arena players are in 2200 gear which has better stats) their proficiency (knowing their class abilities well and counter tactics). EvE doesn't even have a rating system to judge proficiency like a true FPS game. EvE just scores who killed what and what was lost, no other stats apply.

At best EvE is a hybrid.

_"In a world of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act." _ ~George Orwell

Forum Clone 77777
Doomheim
#33 - 2013-07-13 01:10:59 UTC
Guys.. I think.. I really think this thread is a trap.. o,O
Robert Saint
The Grumpy Dogs
#34 - 2013-07-13 01:19:27 UTC
Forum Clone 77777 wrote:
Guys.. I think.. I really think this thread is a trap.. o,O


Are we all being too civilized, is that it?

It is difficult to understand what motivates others to do things and why they enjoy this or other PVP gaming activities.

It is rather clear from my posts in this and other threads that I am more of the "We fight with honor" type of player, but since that is not all that obvious in EVE, it is also helpful to new players, PVE players and the general understanding of what PVP means to EVE's player base as a collective.

This understanding really helps those adverse to participating in PVP in EVE.

Most PVE players just think the PVP crowd players are jerks.....so this is a chance to talk about it.... that's all.. we're all gamers!

Rells
Lethal Riposte
#35 - 2013-07-13 02:23:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Kraythen
Robert Saint wrote:
So EVE is a difficult game to figure out, as I try to balance my personal understanding of what Player Vs Player is.

Although, I have my personal view of what PVP, I would very much like to hear what anyone who is brave enough to post in GD.... as would others who read these threads.

Post with your MAIN, otherwise you're missing the point.

1) What is PVP to you?
2) Why do you like it?



With PVP you are fighting a thinking opponent, not a computer that can be mapped out and defeated with either the right setup or force. You can change a setup but your opponent can counter that setup. You can bring significant force but the other oponent can counter with tactics. Its ever changing, moving, difficult to perfect and that is what makes it worth doing.

Any person with half a brain can excel in PvE. It takes exceptional strategists and tacticians to excel at pvp.

To take out a fleet of 50 hacs with less than 20 players, takes skill. To hit and destroy ships of superior power with a coordinated tech 1 frig attack piloted by raw 2 week newbies takes skill. To modify tactics to allow 15 destroyers to decimate a 30 person mixed HAC, BS, Inty, Interdictor, Cruiser fleet takes exceptional skill, communication, guile and perseverance. Add to that the risk of losing your ship and clone and you have an experience unlike any other.

In short, PVE is boredom of the kind that kills people. Those who excel at pvp do pve because they have to to make money. They would much rather be out fighting.

Browse the Agony Unleashed youtube channel. This is the corp I founded and it is still going strong proving that conventional wisdom isnt.

http://www.youtube.com/user/AgonyUnleashedPVP/feed?filter=2
Verunae Caseti
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#36 - 2013-07-13 03:12:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Verunae Caseti
Robert Saint wrote:
Do you feel that it is more rewarding to win in a PVP matchup if the odds are somewhat technically equal, and your skill was the deciding factor? Or are you perfectly comfortable being part of a gang that defeats a solo player that didn't have a chance?


That absolutely depends on what type of game I'm playing and what my goals are.

If you consider sports to be PvP, then balanced games are much more fun. I'd rather have a challenging game of pick-up basketball where the other team gives me a good run for my money than play a bunch of n'er-do-wells with two left feet who can't dribble the ball or find the backboard with a GPS.

But, take a game like No Limit Texas Hold'em with a few thousand dollars on the table, and I would MUCH rather go up against a bunch of rank-ass amateurs who wouldn't know a flush if they were trying to get rid of a bad case of post-Taco-Bell diarrhea.

In video games, again - it varies. Quick-twitch games like Team Fortress or Counterstrike tend to be more fun if the competition is rather even and games can go either way, then it feels exhilarating to win a match. But games like EVE can paint a different picture. Here "fairness" is more of a long-term concept, whereas individual encounters I seek to have an "unfair" advantage over my opponents whenever possible. If they want to even the playing field, they have every opportunity to join a corporation/alliance larger and more powerful than mine and come back and serve me a piping-hot or icy-cold dish of revenge. The game plays out over a much longer time frame and therefore the "evenness" of individual encounters is not as important as the balance of the game in the long run, and the ability of players to move within the social structure of the game and affect change.

This is one of EVE's great successes. By sticking to a single server, actions tend to have far-reaching and long-lasting consequences that you can't just run and hide from with a "name change" or a "server transfer."
BiscuitMonsterr
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#37 - 2013-07-13 04:12:55 UTC
Robert Saint wrote:
BiscuitMonsterr wrote:


1) To me, PvP is difficult, complicated, boring and pointless. I don't enjoy it, I'm no good at it, and in 10 years of MMOs, I've not yet ever felt I'm missing out on much by avoiding it. The closest I come to 'participating' in PvP is when I successfully come back from losec after a ninja mining trip without encountering another player; I consider those times PvP victories.

2) I don't.


This is a fantastic and honest answer..

thank you!


Question though: You most likely have played a game of Monopoly with someone before on the kitchen table. That is PVP in a sense, why is online so different? Is it the bully mentality that comes across?


I play a lot of boardgames (not monopoly though, its engine is broken), and I'm as good at them as my regular gaming group, which enables me to enjoy wins on occasion. With MMO PvP, I'm for some reason unable to attain a level of skill high enough to not just repeatedly be defeated in short order, which obviously isn't much fun. I don'mt play chess with a good friend because he's simply so much better than me that it's pointless. Chess is also a good example of a boardgame I don't really enjoy because it has no narrative, really, and MMO PvP also doesn't have any story, whereas a PvE mission or quest does (however poor they are). I need narrative to enjoy content if it's confrontational, usually. I don't play multiplayer CoD because it's repetitive and has no narrative.

Another aspect which turns me off is the bully/smacktalk/immaturity of a lot of PvPers. Talk of 'harvesting tears' makes me /facepalm tbh. I'm a big fan of comicbooks, and I've never seen Spiderman teabag the Green Goblin whilst saying 'loloHTFU noob u fail!' etc.

PvP all too often looks like 12-yr olds chest-pounding in a sandpit.
Robert Saint
The Grumpy Dogs
#38 - 2013-07-13 06:57:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Robert Saint
BiscuitMonsterr wrote:


PvP all too often looks like 12-yr olds chest-pounding in a sandpit.



I completely agree, and as a father of 5 kids, it's sad that PVP gamers think ganging up on solo players is winning, and they somehow did something amazing.

It's the publisher fault I feel for giving players so much freedom and not adding a more structured and entertaining PVP experience in game.... at least on some level.

I don't think it's actually possible in this game since it's so deeply convicted to open world only after ten years of the same thing, it's not changing.
Riot Girl
You'll Cowards Don't Even Smoke Crack
#39 - 2013-07-13 06:59:31 UTC
Robert Saint wrote:
PVP gamers think ganging up on solo players is winning

It is.
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#40 - 2013-07-13 07:01:16 UTC
PvP is any combat or activity in game that leads to combat. Market trades are not really PvP imo because they are consentual. Both side agree to the outcome whereas in true PvP both side are in conflict and the outcome is determined by other factors - ship, skill, luck.

Likewise PvE in null low high is not PvP until a player attacks and transforms it into PvP. Avoiding PvP is not PvP it is the inverse of PvP and while highly difficult and requiring skill at times still not PvP until you fail at it.

My PvP is war decs against alliances, I engage in cat and mouse games, and the occasional hit and run on a member who makes a mistake and becomes separated vulnerable. I use spies, locator agents, research each member often taking weeks of prep. My goal is to kill as many as possible without getting killed. I enjoy the thrill of the hunt and outsmarting the many.

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)