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Stasis Web vs Tracking Computer w/ Tracking Speed Script

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Whitehound
#21 - 2013-07-12 23:52:18 UTC
Chris Winter wrote:
There's a really, really simple way to prove yourself wrong.

Take a fast ship with big guns (an attack BC, for example) and an MWD. Stick a buddy or an alt into a frigate. Have the buddy stay stationary while you orbit him at 10km or whatever. Oh hey, look at that, you'll miss.

Nothing wrong with this. However, the argument was on stationary targets and you did not know that it has special cases. Perhaps it was mean of me not to tell you about them right from the start, but it was also not me who wanted to make this into an argument. Only you wanted this.

So, yes, you will find to each of the three modules cases where they do not give you an advantage. I previously wrote:
Quote:
Nonsense. A TP also does not give a 37.5% advantage when used against a Titan. Nor is a TC with 30% much help when used against a stationary target or a 10x faster ship.

It is all there was to understand. Let me know when you are done arguing. I am only telling you.

Loss is meaningful. Therefore is the loss of meaning likewise meaningful. It is the source of all trolling.
Ireland VonVicious
Vicious Trading Company
#22 - 2013-07-13 00:16:31 UTC
The answer to the OP's question is based on the fitting.

If you are using a subsystem with drones you will see extra advantage to webs and tp's.

TC can easily be the best choice if you are having cap issues and all lasers for your dps.

I'd say TP is the most middle of the road option.

Webs are what you want if you are having issues with the close frigs (( High secondary gunnery skills or implant? ))
Chris Winter
Bene Gesserit ChapterHouse
The Curatores Veritatis Auxiliary
#23 - 2013-07-13 00:36:30 UTC
Your claim was:
Whitehound wrote:
No, they do not. You always deal full damage against stationary targets (within optimal range).


This claim has been proven false. Now you're claiming that you knew something else all along but didn't share it.

Sure, whatever.

As for there being cases where each of them doesn't help you...this is obviously true. If you're already hitting 100% of the time in all the scenarios you care about, none of them are going to help you.
Whitehound
#24 - 2013-07-13 08:24:37 UTC
Chris Winter wrote:
Your claim was:
Whitehound wrote:
No, they do not. You always deal full damage against stationary targets (within optimal range).


This claim has been proven false. Now you're claiming that you knew something else all along but didn't share it.

Ships are not stationary. They can only stand still, which is not the same. Stationary targets are things like stations, gates, cans, etc.. Everything without a propulsion.

Loss is meaningful. Therefore is the loss of meaning likewise meaningful. It is the source of all trolling.
Bertrand Butler
Cras es Noster
#25 - 2013-07-13 08:27:57 UTC
and...thread delivers.
Tauranon
Weeesearch
CAStabouts
#26 - 2013-07-13 08:45:30 UTC
Whitehound wrote:
Chris Winter wrote:
Your claim was:
Whitehound wrote:
No, they do not. You always deal full damage against stationary targets (within optimal range).


This claim has been proven false. Now you're claiming that you knew something else all along but didn't share it.

Ships are not stationary. They can only stand still, which is not the same. Stationary targets are things like stations, gates, cans, etc.. Everything without a propulsion.


There is no special case. Some objects simply have large signatures.

Guns have signature resolution, which is why you can make a medium gun have the same tracking figures as a small gun, yet the small gun still lands more hits on small fast moving targets.

I'm sure you can find an object in space with a small enough sig to be able to miss it from an orbit. Try a hyperion with 425mm railguns.
Whitehound
#27 - 2013-07-13 09:49:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Whitehound
Tauranon wrote:
There is no special case. Some objects simply have large signatures.

Guns have signature resolution, which is why you can make a medium gun have the same tracking figures as a small gun, yet the small gun still lands more hits on small fast moving targets.

I'm sure you can find an object in space with a small enough sig to be able to miss it from an orbit. Try a hyperion with 425mm railguns.

Ignore it and be sure about it, but it is a long standing fact that stationary targets in EVE, meaning stations, gates, cans and all else that do not have a propulsion and cannot move, posses no speed and no transversal speed and no angular velocity attribute. You can verify this with the overview, where you get no reading for stationary targets. It is not just 0, it is empty.

Just to be clear, this is not my opinion or a hunch of mine. It has been said for many years on the forums and on the help channels by other players. I then have not ever seen a miss against a stationary target to believe otherwise. If you believe otherwise then feel free to prove not just me wrong, but everyone else who has been saying this. I will however not sit down and run a test series against various objects only to convince someone who has never heard of it and then cannot believe it.

A couple more facts:
There was a time when ships at 0km range could not deal damage against other ships until CCP changed it after many years had past. I am sure you have never heard about this either, but you may find proof of this in some of the older patch notes, which is how I learned about it. I have never seen this myself and was surprised just like many others that this was possible.

The formula to turret tracking was made by players and existed before the wiki came to life. CCP has so far not disclosed their server code and all formulas are approximations. For some things will you not find a formula and sometimes can one find opposing formulas.

So go ahead, and believe you know all the answers and then use it to start arguments only to get taught by someone else about facts you have been missing. I know I do not have them all, but I certainly like to know more, which is why I know about all these things.

TL;DR: bite me.

Loss is meaningful. Therefore is the loss of meaning likewise meaningful. It is the source of all trolling.
Jani Padecain
Panama Investment Bank
#28 - 2013-07-13 12:58:05 UTC
Don´t mind me. I´m just going to park this link in here.

Velocities:
http://wiki.eveuniversity.org/Velocities

Turret damage:
http://wiki.eveuniversity.org/Turret_Damage

And back to the topic.
Since the lack of dronebay in Zealot. Fit a web..
Chris Winter
Bene Gesserit ChapterHouse
The Curatores Veritatis Auxiliary
#29 - 2013-07-13 20:25:37 UTC
Whitehound wrote:
Ships are not stationary. They can only stand still, which is not the same. Stationary targets are things like stations, gates, cans, etc.. Everything without a propulsion.

Fairly certain that in the English language, "stationary" means "not moving."

Everyone else in the thread figured that out.
Whitehound
#30 - 2013-07-13 20:50:00 UTC
Chris Winter wrote:
Whitehound wrote:
Ships are not stationary. They can only stand still, which is not the same. Stationary targets are things like stations, gates, cans, etc.. Everything without a propulsion.

Fairly certain that in the English language, "stationary" means "not moving."

Everyone else in the thread figured that out.

The word itself has got many meanings and not just "not moving". It entirely depends on the context it is being used in. In the context of EVE is there a difference between "stationary targets" and "stationary ships". You could have asked. Only you then want to argue, still. Why is that?

Loss is meaningful. Therefore is the loss of meaning likewise meaningful. It is the source of all trolling.
xPredat0rz
Project.Nova
The Initiative.
#31 - 2013-07-14 06:46:43 UTC
Whitehound wrote:
Chris Winter wrote:
Whitehound wrote:
Ships are not stationary. They can only stand still, which is not the same. Stationary targets are things like stations, gates, cans, etc.. Everything without a propulsion.

Fairly certain that in the English language, "stationary" means "not moving."

Everyone else in the thread figured that out.

The word itself has got many meanings and not just "not moving". It entirely depends on the context it is being used in. In the context of EVE is there a difference between "stationary targets" and "stationary ships". You could have asked. Only you then want to argue, still. Why is that?


Hate to break it to you but all structures(Ihubs, SBUs, TCUs, POSes, Stations) are stationary structures. While yes you could say in real physics they are orbiting something etc i got that. You take your Turret based Battleship. Park it 5km away from large easy to shoot structure and shoot it while neither of you are moving and you will not hit for full damage. There is still a % chance to hit. You will even miss said insanely large structure with perfect skills.


Take same structure and shoot it with missiles. If it doesnt move they should hit for full damage-resists. Missiles dont need to track and what you are shooting has an insanely large sig radius correct? They dont always hit for 100% damage


Take Fighters. With perfect skills do 1k dps on a carrier. They do not do full damage as they have to track and there is still a % chance to hit.

Your wrong.
Gorn Arming
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#32 - 2013-07-14 07:24:26 UTC
Whitehound wrote:
Webs (60%) are better than TPs (37.5%) and TCs (30%), but only work within 9km-14km range.

TPs work a bit better than TCs, but require a lock (just like webs), have a long cycle time and are limited by an optimal range and falloff.

TCs are the weakest, but are the easiest to use and can be switched to gain more range.

Comparing web strength to a TC's tracking bonus is idiotic; you're not comparing the same attribute.

A web reduces the target's velocity by 60%, which is equivalent to increasing your tracking (assuming your own ship is stationary) by 1/(1-0.6) = 250%, not by a mere 60%. A web obviously won't help against transversal generated by your own ship's movement--but then you can set that to zero any time you like.

This is like third grade math, here.
Mina Sebiestar
Minmatar Inner Space Conglomerate
#33 - 2013-07-14 08:43:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Mina Sebiestar
Whitehound wrote:
Chris Winter wrote:
TCs can actually help you against a stationary target, if you're orbiting it. Webs, however, won't.

No, they do not. You always deal full damage against stationary targets (within optimal range). You probably did not know that.

The point also was that each module works differently and the pilot needs to know this before he/she can make use of the gain.


Not to burst your bubble but you will never do full dmg on stationary object even if you are at optimal at full stop shooting at station even if it is under web or tp your dmg read out will be from barely hit to wreck..

to my knowledge only missiles will do constant dmg on something stationary

You choke behind a smile a fake behind the fear

Because >>I is too hard
Whitehound
#34 - 2013-07-14 09:58:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Whitehound
xPredat0rz wrote:
Hate to break it to you but all structures(Ihubs, SBUs, TCUs, POSes, Stations) are stationary structures. While yes you could say in real physics they are orbiting something etc i got that. You take your Turret based Battleship. Park it 5km away from large easy to shoot structure and shoot it while neither of you are moving and you will not hit for full damage. There is still a % chance to hit. You will even miss said insanely large structure with perfect skills.

The hit'n'miss chance uses the transversal speed, which for stationary targets or at least some of them does not exist and so one deals full damage (not accounting for randomness) against these. Some objects can be targeted, but one deals 0 damage. Those exist, too.

I then do not really care for exceptions within exceptions when the whole point was that there are exceptions for all of them. The conversation is only spinning in a circle now.

Loss is meaningful. Therefore is the loss of meaning likewise meaningful. It is the source of all trolling.
Whitehound
#35 - 2013-07-14 10:00:46 UTC
Gorn Arming wrote:
Comparing web strength to a TC's tracking bonus is idiotic; you're not comparing the same attribute.

A web reduces the target's velocity by 60%, which is equivalent to increasing your tracking (assuming your own ship is stationary) by 1/(1-0.6) = 250%, not by a mere 60%. A web obviously won't help against transversal generated by your own ship's movement--but then you can set that to zero any time you like.

This is like third grade math, here.

I did not start the comparison, but the OP did. I do not see it as being idiotic. You then have only proven yourself wrong when you say a web can be the equivalent to an increase in tracking. What was your point again?

Loss is meaningful. Therefore is the loss of meaning likewise meaningful. It is the source of all trolling.
Bertrand Butler
Cras es Noster
#36 - 2013-07-14 10:33:53 UTC
There are some times when its best to admit you were wrong and stop posting.
There are some times when its best to admit nothing and keep derping until everyone else is too tired to talk to you anymore.

Both times are good times.
Ralph King-Griffin
New Eden Tech Support
#37 - 2013-07-14 10:40:29 UTC
Bertrand Butler wrote:
There are some times when its best to admit you were wrong and stop posting.
There are some times when its best to admit nothing and keep derping until everyone else is too tired to talk to you anymore.

Both times are good times.



At least the latter provided me this mornings entertainment,
Far better than watching pepa pig with the kids.

Murderers of Negotiable Motivations

=]|[=
Uppsy Daisy
State War Academy
Caldari State
#38 - 2013-07-14 11:00:25 UTC
Ralph King-Griffin wrote:
Bertrand Butler wrote:
There are some times when its best to admit you were wrong and stop posting.
There are some times when its best to admit nothing and keep derping until everyone else is too tired to talk to you anymore.

Both times are good times.



At least the latter provided me this mornings entertainment,
Far better than watching pepa pig with the kids.


I dunno.

I think I would have preferred to watch Daddy Pig gettin' down with some muddy puddles than contributing to this one...
Whitehound
#39 - 2013-07-14 11:22:50 UTC
Bertrand Butler wrote:
There are some times when its best to admit you were wrong and stop posting.
There are some times when its best to admit nothing and keep derping until everyone else is too tired to talk to you anymore.

Both times are good times.

Stop with this BS. You are not even on topic.

I was never wrong to begin with. Some have only now start to realize that there is more to it than simple percentages. I am happy to go along with them and this thread as long as they keep learning about it and how the modules can be used to improve tracking. The percentages I have listed are simply the gains one can get from each module, and I have pointed it out before. Obviously are some still learning how to use each module and when, which can be seen in their comments. It is then cool that they are trying to prove me wrong. Only you are derping here.

Loss is meaningful. Therefore is the loss of meaning likewise meaningful. It is the source of all trolling.
Kadesh Priestess
Goryn Clade
#40 - 2013-07-14 11:53:53 UTC
Whitehound wrote:
Webs (60%) are better than TPs (37.5%) and TCs (30%), but only work within 9km-14km range.
In turret damage formula, there's single factor which decides how well will you hit ship if it's within optimal range. It includes turret tracking speed, turret signature resolution, target angular velocity, target signature radius.

Tracking computer gives you +30% tracking, target painter is equivalent of +37.5% tracking, web is equivalent of up to +150% tracking if it slows down target ship to have 40% of its initial angular speed.

Sometimes its effect is lesser (if you're ought to fly fast, or you're bad pilot and can't reduce angular speed by manual piloting after gaining necessary distance control with web, or due to influence of target ship agility if it orbits you at high speed on low orbit), but it should remain much stronger than TP or TC within web range in most, if not all cases.
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