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Local Intel...
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Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#21 - 2013-07-12 13:48:57 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:
Thanks for looking at this issue from the other end of the discussion. Very refreshing....

I have to agree with Trii, the rewards would have to go up to match the rise in risk. Or possibly including some way of detecting what system the person is in, even if cloaked. Note, just detecting the system, not where in that system he is. At the constellation level, and given how such a detection mechanic works, it could be a fair amount of work. Or possibly both an increase to rewards and some form of detection...

Still, nice job thinking outside the box on this one.

I would say that knowing what system a person is, and being able to hunt for cloaked vessels, should be mutually exclusive concepts to each other.

If they can zero down the system, they should not be able to locate a cloaked vessel's specific location inside that system any more than they do now.

Make it so that intel requires more footwork, this is a huge sacrifice to cloaking to be found.
They want to know if a cloaked vessel is in that system, then nothing short of scanning it should do. Be proactive.

Knowing to look for someone from a constellation chat, then flipping a switch to simply know which system to look in, followed by a simple scan and poof, kentucky fried covops for dinner.
Take out any one of those steps, and I can be accepting of the rest. But constellation chat is still a freebie.
(If the tool to isolate systems does not work on cloaked vessels, WHILE CLOAKED, that is good enough too)

Just my opinion on what would be good game-play, from a PvE perspective.

Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked...
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#22 - 2013-07-12 13:58:11 UTC
Darth Kilth wrote:
Derath Ellecon wrote:

Usually the call is to remove local, works for wormholes. I live in wormholes and I don't mind not having local. But I also understand that might be too drastic.

You see, here is the problem, it works in Wormholes for a very specific reason... In wormholes you can 'controll' with a bit of work the Exits and entry's into your system, if you're on the ball you can just close exits you don't want continuously.
In 0.0 there is no such control, you can't clog up the star gate so you can't controll who has access to the system.

Changing local to a constellation level will just cause people to dock up when a Red/Orange/grey/neutral appears a few jumps earlier, not to mention this will mostly inconvenience smaller scale alliances/groups that don't have acces to the intell channels of a region.
....

Sure, the current system is not very good, but really, almost any change proposed doesn't do anything but make it easier to shut down a system with a cloaky or to suprise gank people.
And really, that's easy enough as it is with the ammount of idiots playing this game.

Too protective of PvE.

Because the devs want balance, and the vocal minorities keep screaming about fearing for safety, they have given them safety.
In spades. (IE: they are killing us with it, and using a spade to bury us under it)

But because balance dictates that risk and reward be tied together, they are reducing rewards in null.

The ice belts are now limited spawns, just like the higher end ore belts. Miners who don't explode needed another limit to keep from flooding the markets with ice products, and this was the solution they chose.

I like mining ice, and I don't need this solution. I would be MUCH happier having my barge / exhumer shot at than having no ice to mine.
(Yes, the belts respawn, BUT ONLY if fully cleared. And there are scrub ice items left behind by others that are far too numerous for me to clear and still be able to get the ice I need)

Freaking high sec is more dangerous than sov null right now, thanks to war decs and suicide ganking added to bounties.
I can avoid all of those issues far easier in null. And the ice got reduced for this reason.

Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked...
Maximus Andendare
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
#23 - 2013-07-12 16:46:01 UTC
Dracvlad wrote:
Now your suggestion would mean that I would not even try to do what I did for the last month, because it would be impossible to operate, it is as bad as removing local. Personally I would like CCP to open up a new mega large region which has a single gate entry point and it is too far from current space to cyno there. And lets see how that develops.

I take risks, but cold calculated ones, sorry but your idea would leave me doing missions in High Sec.
It's always funny to read these posts from people who want to live in null sec but be 100% safe in doing their activities. Guess what! You chose to move into hostile space. It's both unrealistic and impractical to assume that you'll be able to operate with 100% safety. In fact, if you want near-100% safety, you should probably have stayed in high sec.

Space is dangerous. Eve is a social game. Add those things up and you probably should get some friends to play with for your super-carebearing activities. But realize that Local is an unrealistic perfect intel tool that shifts the burden of intel responsibility off the player and into the realm of magic. You can instantly know who is in a system with you without any effort on your part. It makes living in "hostile" space very low risk. If you're concerned with someone who admittedly is not at their keyboard, get some friends to play along with and properly cover yourself. Be ready to counter anyone who could drop you. If you want to be a solo carebear then go do high sec.

I live in a C5 wormhole with no Local. What do my corpmates and I do? Use dscan and scanner. The burden of making sure we're safe is on all of us to check our dscans and scan for new signatures. It's true there's no gate system to always watch, but that makes it worse. I can't just bubble up the gates and go about my business, because someone else can roll into my hole without my knowledge, and their new wormhole can spawn anywhere. They can have a fleet waiting there to make quick work of our fleet. But we still operate just fine. We learned how to be vigilant and life went on.

All the nullbears should get adjusted to the idea that CCP is going to change Local at some point. It shouldn't be removed, necessarily, because it is still a chat channel. But it should definitely not be a crutch, as it currently is, or some perfect, effortless, no risk, intelligence-gathering tell-all.

It's also really funny when people say that an AFK cloaker is some sort of "threat" and can "shut down" an entire system, because you're scared your super-carebear behavior is going to be disrupted. How can someone not at their keyboard "shut down" anything? Just be ready for a good fight. FFS, Eve is about having good fights. If you're not looking for good fights, go back to high sec if you want safety for your super carebear.

Enter grid and you're already dead, destined to be reborn and fight another day.

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nahjustwarpin
SUPER DUPER SPACE TRUCKS
#24 - 2013-07-12 17:16:23 UTC
Maximus Andendare wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:
Now your suggestion would mean that I would not even try to do what I did for the last month, because it would be impossible to operate, it is as bad as removing local. Personally I would like CCP to open up a new mega large region which has a single gate entry point and it is too far from current space to cyno there. And lets see how that develops.

I take risks, but cold calculated ones, sorry but your idea would leave me doing missions in High Sec.
It's always funny to read these posts from people who want to live in null sec but be 100% safe in doing their activities. Guess what! You chose to move into hostile space. It's both unrealistic and impractical to assume that you'll be able to operate with 100% safety. In fact, if you want near-100% safety, you should probably have stayed in high sec.

Space is dangerous. Eve is a social game. Add those things up and you probably should get some friends to play with for your super-carebearing activities. But realize that Local is an unrealistic perfect intel tool that shifts the burden of intel responsibility off the player and into the realm of magic. You can instantly know who is in a system with you without any effort on your part. It makes living in "hostile" space very low risk. If you're concerned with someone who admittedly is not at their keyboard, get some friends to play along with and properly cover yourself. Be ready to counter anyone who could drop you. If you want to be a solo carebear then go do high sec.

I live in a C5 wormhole with no Local. What do my corpmates and I do? Use dscan and scanner. The burden of making sure we're safe is on all of us to check our dscans and scan for new signatures. It's true there's no gate system to always watch, but that makes it worse. I can't just bubble up the gates and go about my business, because someone else can roll into my hole without my knowledge, and their new wormhole can spawn anywhere. They can have a fleet waiting there to make quick work of our fleet. But we still operate just fine. We learned how to be vigilant and life went on.

All the nullbears should get adjusted to the idea that CCP is going to change Local at some point. It shouldn't be removed, necessarily, because it is still a chat channel. But it should definitely not be a crutch, as it currently is, or some perfect, effortless, no risk, intelligence-gathering tell-all.

It's also really funny when people say that an AFK cloaker is some sort of "threat" and can "shut down" an entire system, because you're scared your super-carebear behavior is going to be disrupted. How can someone not at their keyboard "shut down" anything? Just be ready for a good fight. FFS, Eve is about having good fights. If you're not looking for good fights, go back to high sec if you want safety for your super carebear.


just make 0.0 have income like wh per hour and there should be no problem
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#25 - 2013-07-12 17:31:47 UTC
nahjustwarpin wrote:
just make 0.0 have income like wh per hour and there should be no problem

Honestly, if they would just fix the mickey mouse levels of risk, this would seem an obvious point.

+1

Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked...
Derath Ellecon
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#26 - 2013-07-12 17:45:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Derath Ellecon
nahjustwarpin wrote:
just make 0.0 have income like wh per hour and there should be no problem


Oh please.

First off. The only WH classes that really make OMG mad isk are C5/C6 with their cap escalation waves. And let's see, to do a C5 site you need at a minimum

1 Triage capable Archon.
2 Moros/Revelation dreadnaughts.
1 Carrier, any race.
1 Loki.
1 Armour and Skirmish capable fleet booster. (Information is also recommended.)
1 Noctis.

So that's what, 8-10 Billion isk on the field to run these sites. Even then these sites can be tough enough to kill your fleet, regardless of players coming in.

At any given time, you will have half the flieet in Triage/siege. The escalation waves are 6-8 battleship class sleepers that all scram. So if someone does come in, chances are you won't be warping away to safety.

Tell me, how many areas of 0.0 does ratting require that level of fleet participation?

In lower class wormholes you can still make good isk. But you still have to work pretty hard to get it. It's not like WH's have that nice "SOV upgraded guaranteed number of anoms at any given time so I can rat all day without rolling statics etc" stuff. Plus WH income isn't "immediate bounties every tick" It has to be salvaged, transported, and sold.

This also means if you get interrupted while running sites, you bug out and make NOTHING. Have to POS up cause a neut came in your 0.0 system? you still get bounties for every kill up till you hit warp.

So when you factor that in, Sub cap escalation WH's probably doesn't on average beat 0.0 isk/hr income.
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#27 - 2013-07-12 17:53:29 UTC
Derath Ellecon wrote:
nahjustwarpin wrote:
just make 0.0 have income like wh per hour and there should be no problem


Oh please.

First off. The only WH classes that really make OMG mad isk are C5/C6 with their cap escalation waves. And let's see, to do a C5 site you need at a minimum

1 Triage capable Archon.
2 Moros/Revelation dreadnaughts.
1 Carrier, any race.
1 Loki.
1 Armour and Skirmish capable fleet booster. (Information is also recommended.)
1 Noctis.

So that's what, 8-10 Billion isk on the field to run these sites. Even then these sites can be tough enough to kill your fleet, regardless of players coming in.

At any given time, you will have half the flieet in Triage/siege. The escalation waves are 6-8 battleship class sleepers that all scram. So if someone does come in, chances are you won't be warping away to safety.

Tell me, how many areas of 0.0 does ratting require that level of fleet participation?

In lower class wormholes you can still make good isk. But you still have to work pretty hard to get it. It's not like WH's have that nice "SOV upgraded guaranteed number of anoms at any given time so I can rat all day without rolling statics etc" stuff. Plus WH income isn't "immediate bounties every tick" It has to be salvaged, transported, and sold.

This also means if you get interrupted while running sites, you bug out and make NOTHING. Have to POS up cause a neut came in your 0.0 system? you still get bounties for every kill up till you hit warp.

So when you factor that in, Sub cap escalation WH's probably doesn't on average beat 0.0 isk/hr income.

I don't know he meant that context of income like you described.

For the teamwork demanded to beat these, you would certainly earn the ISK.

For the opportunity to do it at all, that would be a boon to null. One it does not merit with the current free and safe nature, in my opinion.

Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked...
Maximus Andendare
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
#28 - 2013-07-12 18:19:36 UTC
Nikk Narrel wrote:
Derath Ellecon wrote:
nahjustwarpin wrote:
just make 0.0 have income like wh per hour and there should be no problem


Oh please.

First off. The only WH classes that really make OMG mad isk are C5/C6 with their cap escalation waves. And let's see, to do a C5 site you need at a minimum

1 Triage capable Archon.
2 Moros/Revelation dreadnaughts.
1 Carrier, any race.
1 Loki.
1 Armour and Skirmish capable fleet booster. (Information is also recommended.)
1 Noctis.

So that's what, 8-10 Billion isk on the field to run these sites. Even then these sites can be tough enough to kill your fleet, regardless of players coming in.

At any given time, you will have half the flieet in Triage/siege. The escalation waves are 6-8 battleship class sleepers that all scram. So if someone does come in, chances are you won't be warping away to safety.

Tell me, how many areas of 0.0 does ratting require that level of fleet participation?

In lower class wormholes you can still make good isk. But you still have to work pretty hard to get it. It's not like WH's have that nice "SOV upgraded guaranteed number of anoms at any given time so I can rat all day without rolling statics etc" stuff. Plus WH income isn't "immediate bounties every tick" It has to be salvaged, transported, and sold.

This also means if you get interrupted while running sites, you bug out and make NOTHING. Have to POS up cause a neut came in your 0.0 system? you still get bounties for every kill up till you hit warp.

So when you factor that in, Sub cap escalation WH's probably doesn't on average beat 0.0 isk/hr income.

I don't know he meant that context of income like you described.

For the teamwork demanded to beat these, you would certainly earn the ISK.

For the opportunity to do it at all, that would be a boon to null. One it does not merit with the current free and safe nature, in my opinion.
Yeah, honestly, I don't think anyone would object to null sec having a higher stream of income IF it required a fleet to go along with it to accomplish it. Besides, that'd be an awesome way to promote a more "bottom up" income flow (as opposed to the current "top down" alliance moon-generated income stream. Create a big pve system in null that requires coordination, make whatever loot redeemable at player-built outposts and the alliance can tax the loot spoils. Players make isk, alliances make isk. But by "big pve," I don't necessarily mean that it'd just be caps + triage. All forms of pve should be welcome, as long as it requires a fleet to do so, be it RR BS, T3 + Logi, frigs, etc.

As was correctly pointed out, in order for us to bring home the bacon--and indeed make ANY money off pve in our C5--we need a well-coordinated fleet full of Caps to do so. There's no solo Tengus here, at least not for cap escalations.

Put that same degree of coordination required, and I don't think anyone would balk at null sec becoming an isk fountain, because the risk/reward quotient would be there, content-wise. Commit triaged/sieged carriers/dreads to pve in null and you can probably have more isk than we make in wormholes, since the risk of cynos would be present. Now, make a module that can jam cynos (on a 10-min cooldown or similar), and then maybe the isk could be on parity. I mean, look at low sec incursions--which are the closest thing to "big coordinated" pve in hostile kspace. They need lots of coordination, but the reward is there.

But just add big coordination pve to null as is, given the local intel tell-all, and I think it'd be a bit unbalanced. Local still needs to lose its role as a crutch tool for the masses. Scouts--cloaky eyes, probers, etc.--ought to be a role that people do. Maybe it's in the form of a ship that can drop camera drones to remotely watch gates, so one dedicated scout could watch 2-3 gates. Something essentially has to change, though, because as it is now, it's broken.

Enter grid and you're already dead, destined to be reborn and fight another day.

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