These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

Death to Attributes
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Aliventi
Rattini Tribe
Minmatar Fleet Alliance
#41 - 2013-07-11 03:25:36 UTC
There is better way to train skills than with attributes.

Think about it for a minute. What would Eve be like without attributes? Would your Eve be destroyed overnight and people shooting monuments to bring them back? Would your characters all of the sudden die of a lack of attributes and you would stop playing because of it?

I am willing to guess the answer is probably not. I have a feeling attributes would be about as missed as learning skills. And if you haven't noticed people aren't clamoring to bring those back. Yes, it would be removing a pitifully small choice with significant consequences. It would also be removing a pretty large barrier of understanding for a new capsuleer. The systems works. But just because a system works doesn't mean it is the best system.

As veterans we all understand and benefit from attributes. We are those that enjoy the complexity of Eve. We love that there are choices and consequences. If we didn't we probably wouldn't be playing Eve. I never want to see what makes Eve unique go away. However, in this case there is a better way.

That better way that would significantly benefit, I am fairly certain, a vast majority of Eve players. The system is a simple every hour deposit of ~2250 or so SP/hr in to a SP pool. You allocate SP for skills directly from the pool. The benefits are IMO significant:
- Removes 24 hour training queues. No more having to log in every day or so to switch up skills. Now you can go away for a week on vacation and not worry about if you will run out of training. Yay RL!
-As someone who is in the Military (and there are a lot of us that play Eve) and deploys I don't have to worry about having access to Eve or giving my account info to others so they can keep my skill queue full. That is against the EULA but is really the only way to keep characters training when access to Eve isn't always a reality. This also is a reality for business trips, vacations, computer died, or whatever that makes it so you don't have access to Eve.
- If the severs go down by DDoS or other unforeseen reasons and your skill is is going to run out won't be a worry anymore.
- There has to be a way to implement this so the severs don't have to update 400k+ SP amounts and skill queues every second. Every little bit helps.
- It removes a confusing system for a new pilot to learn and prevents them from making a horrible, uninformed, and uncorrectable mistake. Complexity for the sake of complexity is never good.
- Potential to remove restricting learning implants. The choice between being safe and training faster or PvPing and training slower never should be a choice. Eve should never be about less risk for more reward.
- No longer do you have to plan years worth of skill so your remaps are the most effective. Especially since you can't be great or specialized at anything in this game without core skills, ship skills, and weapon skills all of which use different attributes.

The downsides are:
- Removes a small choice and a significant, correctable once a year, consequence.
- No faster training by using attributes.
- A tiny bit of the depth of Eve goes away.

The choice seems pretty clear to me. I don't expect all of you to agree with me. I do however hope you can see that there are some significant benefits to another skill training system.
Adunh Slavy
#42 - 2013-07-11 03:49:36 UTC
Freighdee Katt wrote:

Sean Decker called. He wants his 30-day 25% SP Boost back.

(Available now for the low low price of just two PLEX or $20!)



If that happens, I point the finger at you, I made no such suggestion. Stop giving them bad ideas ... not like it hasn't crossed some grubby accountant's mind already.

Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves.  - William Pitt
Ace Mooncat
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#43 - 2013-07-11 04:54:58 UTC
+1 Good idea.

Attributes add nothing to the game for me.
Zan Shiro
Doomheim
#44 - 2013-07-11 06:05:57 UTC
So we make attributes go away....

so we all get gimped training times? How does this help the noobs? I have my 3 years and change in, fly what I truly want to fly and the rest like the cap train I am now is jsut really becasue if I go back to 0.0 a corp will ask "hey buddy, wheres the caps?". Don't really want them sooo...if my rounidng out of skills takes now months to a year....I don't care.

Noob will though, he won't have attribute or the respec to learn say recon 5 like I did faster.

You see ccp is not going to go okay you all an adjusted rate to speed this up. They will if nice jsut have sp factor in baseline day 1 stats and that is the value that will determine sp/hour for life.



And the idea of attributes jsut boositng stats like weapons or tank. How does this help the noobs? We the several year players have our level 5's done for many things. Yay the noob will go ooh I get +5% now. Still grinding away that level 4 and 5. that the bitter has already. And now the bitter is getting 5% more. To me...this idea seems to be hooking up the vets more yet again. Haven't even added the bitter having hardwires, pirates implants and a fleet booster yet. Under right setup...I am meeting your noob at AF 4 with me being a theoretical AF 6/7. With the slower train....your noob is hating life more than he does now.

Someone said boosters. Fun idea, lets discuss.

remember learning skills? remember how ccp removed them? this brings them back. Only now they'd be the booster affecting skills. You see to get your isk's worth you train these high. It be jsut like learning skills. You trained them to boost high too.

And how does replacing cheap +3's you may run weeks on end (after a while you tend to learn to clear pods better) sound better than injecting +3 boosters several times monthly. Remember this is a low sec/0.0 only process. There won't be 1000's of drug labs in empire to isk war to cheapness. You can't run drug labs in empire.

There will be no price bargaining. Ole boy/corp has to stir up those drug pos', run the jf to and fro and with a now major market has to defend pos' more potentially....these won't be cheap. You'd probably be better off jsut running cheap buy orders for +3 implants under current setup in all honesty.

Adunh Slavy
#45 - 2013-07-11 06:13:46 UTC
Zan Shiro wrote:

Someone said boosters. Fun idea, lets discuss.

remember learning skills? remember how ccp removed them? this brings them back. Only now they'd be the booster affecting skills. You see to get your isk's worth you train these high. It be jsut like learning skills. You trained them to boost high too.


You know there is this thing called 'code', programmers use it to tell a computer what to do. The computer does not tell the programmer what to do. So it is possible that the programmer makes no requirement to use these boosters or have any skills related to them at all.

Zan Shiro wrote:

And how does replacing cheap +3's you may run weeks on end (after a while you tend to learn to clear pods better) sound better than injecting +3 boosters several times monthly. Remember this is a low sec/0.0 only process. There won't be 1000's of drug labs in empire to isk war to cheapness. You can't run drug labs in empire.


See previous comment, you can't run them now, who's to say what could be tomorrow. All it takes is a change to existing code. Not that big an issue.

Zan Shiro wrote:

There will be no price bargaining. Ole boy/corp has to stir up those drug pos', run the jf to and fro and with a now major market has to defend pos' more potentially....these won't be cheap. You'd probably be better off jsut running cheap buy orders for +3 implants under current setup in all honesty.


Depends on availability, ease of access, time and effort required and risk. Trit is pretty cheap right? Morphite is expensive. I think CCP can handle the basic balance point.

Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves.  - William Pitt
Zan Shiro
Doomheim
#46 - 2013-07-11 07:11:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Zan Shiro
I'll bite....why would you not train biology to 5 to make the booster last 100% longer (20% per level boost to duration).

You don't need the booster skills, there'd be no coding actually. If you want to got to jita and spend 2.5 mil on standard blue plll right now no skills you can. Question is how long do you want that 2.5 mil drug to last.

You didn't need the learning skills either. It was more a question of did you want to train slower.



You also need to look at current market for the good drugs (not the crap dropped in missions). Standard blue pill goes for a nice price. CCP made this happen. they put certain components, like gas, only in certain parts of the game. Out of empire. Current drug makers I know make deals with residents of those area to collect thestuff like gas. You want people to give up their 20 mil per tick to collect gas...they will need to be paid. CCP can't adjsut that. They created that. By putting pockets of certain gases in certain parts of 0.0. Just like moon goo. Trit and morphite is all over. Forget one gas' name but its only readily found in delve.


many f&i ideas to shake up eve have died. Among them is a wth shuffle of the moons. Poof....most of the tech moons after patch are in drone space. I don't see them shifting around the gases either.
Aliventi
Rattini Tribe
Minmatar Fleet Alliance
#47 - 2013-07-11 07:23:15 UTC
CCP may or may not find a replacement for learning implants if attributes are removed. Arguing about how to get gas is not even remotely useful at this point to the discussion as to whether or not to remove attributes. If CCP decides a pill booster is a good replacement I am sure they will make it balanced economically. So feel free to pop your pills and go elsewhere for that discussion. Can we get back on topic of the merits of removing or not removing attributes?
seth Hendar
I love you miners
#48 - 2013-07-11 07:39:03 UTC
Adunh Slavy wrote:

What about something like ... remove attributes and attribute implants. In their place implement learning booster drugs mineable from additional gas cloud types. Booster levels can be similar to what we have now, synth, standard, strong and improved, maybe add a filth level since people are used to five levels of things in Eve. Each level gives a 2% boost in training speed, regardless of what you are training, and these boosters last for 24 hours.

The different strengths can be found in various security areas, the lowest in 1.0 through 0.8, then 0.7-0.5, then 0.4 to 0.2 then last 0.1 and below. Only synth can be made in high sec, the others low sec or below. Have enough of these clouds that these products can be widely found, manufactured and used. Put them in anomalies that contain no other resources except this gas.

For all existing uninstalled implants, convert them to 365 of the appropriate level of booster. For all installed implants convert them to 730 of the appropriate level and place them in the redeemable items system, so chars can get at them, regardless of them being docked or not. Boosters useable from hangar floor or cargo hold.

This would add a few things to Eve with out removing 'complexity'. It would add a new profession and increase demand for some existing ones, encourage specialization and reduce barriers to PVP.

there is one issue with your proposal, besides the fact i don't like it at all.

you booster last 24h, but sometimes, i don't connect for days, and it doesn't matter, since i'm skilling something that require 20+ days.

with you proposal, i'll have to connect daily, wich is not always possible, hence i'll loose skilltime hence you actually REMOVE something from players instead of improving a mechanic
seth Hendar
I love you miners
#49 - 2013-07-11 07:42:56 UTC
Aliventi wrote:
There is better way to train skills than with attributes.

Think about it for a minute. What would Eve be like without attributes? Would your Eve be destroyed overnight and people shooting monuments to bring them back? Would your characters all of the sudden die of a lack of attributes and you would stop playing because of it?

I am willing to guess the answer is probably not. I have a feeling attributes would be about as missed as learning skills. And if you haven't noticed people aren't clamoring to bring those back. Yes, it would be removing a pitifully small choice with significant consequences. It would also be removing a pretty large barrier of understanding for a new capsuleer. The systems works. But just because a system works doesn't mean it is the best system.

As veterans we all understand and benefit from attributes. We are those that enjoy the complexity of Eve. We love that there are choices and consequences. If we didn't we probably wouldn't be playing Eve. I never want to see what makes Eve unique go away. However, in this case there is a better way.

That better way that would significantly benefit, I am fairly certain, a vast majority of Eve players. The system is a simple every hour deposit of ~2250 or so SP/hr in to a SP pool. You allocate SP for skills directly from the pool. The benefits are IMO significant:
- Removes 24 hour training queues. No more having to log in every day or so to switch up skills. Now you can go away for a week on vacation and not worry about if you will run out of training. Yay RL!
-As someone who is in the Military (and there are a lot of us that play Eve) and deploys I don't have to worry about having access to Eve or giving my account info to others so they can keep my skill queue full. That is against the EULA but is really the only way to keep characters training when access to Eve isn't always a reality. This also is a reality for business trips, vacations, computer died, or whatever that makes it so you don't have access to Eve.
- If the severs go down by DDoS or other unforeseen reasons and your skill is is going to run out won't be a worry anymore.
- There has to be a way to implement this so the severs don't have to update 400k+ SP amounts and skill queues every second. Every little bit helps.
- It removes a confusing system for a new pilot to learn and prevents them from making a horrible, uninformed, and uncorrectable mistake. Complexity for the sake of complexity is never good.
- Potential to remove restricting learning implants. The choice between being safe and training faster or PvPing and training slower never should be a choice. Eve should never be about less risk for more reward.
- No longer do you have to plan years worth of skill so your remaps are the most effective. Especially since you can't be great or specialized at anything in this game without core skills, ship skills, and weapon skills all of which use different attributes.

The downsides are:
- Removes a small choice and a significant, correctable once a year, consequence.
- No faster training by using attributes.
- A tiny bit of the depth of Eve goes away.

The choice seems pretty clear to me. I don't expect all of you to agree with me. I do however hope you can see that there are some significant benefits to another skill training system.

2250 is a shame, i, among many others, fine tune my skill plans, so i'm always above 2500 sp/ hour, and for at least 80% of the time above 2600

this would clearly nerf all ppl who plan correctly, just because some ppl are not able or too lazy to do the same.

in a nutshell, this would be dumbing eve down
Tchulen
Trumpets and Bookmarks
#50 - 2013-07-11 07:46:03 UTC
Yeah, this is a dumb idea that promotes laziness and lack of thought.

So, no from me. One of the more stupid ideas I've read although that would fit considering the proposal is aimed at making the game more dumb.
Travasty Space
Pilots of Epic
#51 - 2013-07-11 07:50:20 UTC
Aliventi wrote:
There is better way to train skills than with attributes.

Think about it for a minute. What would Eve be like without attributes? Would your Eve be destroyed overnight and people shooting monuments to bring them back? Would your characters all of the sudden die of a lack of attributes and you would stop playing because of it?

I am willing to guess the answer is probably not. I have a feeling attributes would be about as missed as learning skills. And if you haven't noticed people aren't clamoring to bring those back. Yes, it would be removing a pitifully small choice with significant consequences. It would also be removing a pretty large barrier of understanding for a new capsuleer. The systems works. But just because a system works doesn't mean it is the best system.


Learning skills had different issues, they didn't have a true alternative.

Aliventi wrote:
As veterans we all understand and benefit from attributes. We are those that enjoy the complexity of Eve. We love that there are choices and consequences. If we didn't we probably wouldn't be playing Eve. I never want to see what makes Eve unique go away. However, in this case there is a better way.


We know how to benefit from them, newbies don't generally know that they are there and they are given a balanced map to start with.

Aliventi wrote:
That better way that would significantly benefit, I am fairly certain, a vast majority of Eve players. The system is a simple every hour deposit of ~2250 or so SP/hr in to a SP pool. You allocate SP for skills directly from the pool. The benefits are IMO significant:
- Removes 24 hour training queues. No more having to log in every day or so to switch up skills. Now you can go away for a week on vacation and not worry about if you will run out of training. Yay RL!
-As someone who is in the Military (and there are a lot of us that play Eve) and deploys I don't have to worry about having access to Eve or giving my account info to others so they can keep my skill queue full. That is against the EULA but is really the only way to keep characters training when access to Eve isn't always a reality. This also is a reality for business trips, vacations, computer died, or whatever that makes it so you don't have access to Eve.
- If the severs go down by DDoS or other unforeseen reasons and your skill is is going to run out won't be a worry anymore.
- There has to be a way to implement this so the severs don't have to update 400k+ SP amounts and skill queues every second. Every little bit helps.
- It removes a confusing system for a new pilot to learn and prevents them from making a horrible, uninformed, and uncorrectable mistake. Complexity for the sake of complexity is never good.
- Potential to remove restricting learning implants. The choice between being safe and training faster or PvPing and training slower never should be a choice. Eve should never be about less risk for more reward.
- No longer do you have to plan years worth of skill so your remaps are the most effective. Especially since you can't be great or specialized at anything in this game without core skills, ship skills, and weapon skills all of which use different attributes.


1. Kill all the current characters on Bazaar and kills alot the feeling of 'Yes I'm finally in [Insert ship here]!' or 'I finally finish cert [insert here]!' it also benefits Vets more then newbies cause look at all the vets that run with upwards of 2700 sp/hp.
2. If you have to swap everyday you are either crosstraining into something or have just recently started a toon(Alt/Noob) I'm am only reaching 50mil sp and I usually have 3days+ skills running.
3. Against the Eula but not aggressively gone after as ccp understands why it tends to happen. Business trips, V-K can be planned around plenty easy enough. Computer dies, lose interenet access? Guess it helps there but as you noted there are ways around this.
4. Do you worry about this now?
5. Wouldn't actually help at all as the only server load is when you update skill queue, no different from your system.
6. Isn't actually that confusing, and they'd have to make 3 said errors before before it becomes a long term error(and still not uncorrectable, to an extent).
7. Your only safe in station. And the 'don't fly what you can't afford to lose.' applies to pods as well so not a very good reason to remove those.
8. Not exactly true, market pvpers, industrial guys can go a long while w/o needing to remap and still not be falling behind. And then here is where you have options that make attributes have impact. You can go with 17,17,24,24,17 or maybe 20,20,21,21,17 or perhaps 17,17,27,21,17. And those are just some generalized remaps not including more standard specialized remaps. Just like the rest of Eve this rewards planning.

Aliventi wrote:
The downsides are:
- Removes a small choice and a significant, correctable once a year, consequence.
- No faster training by using attributes.
- A tiny bit of the depth of Eve goes away.


1.Small and significant, so even you view this as important. Usually more as CCP tend to give a bonus remap every winter(seems like it, gone 3 of those plus the normal time one). And isn't consequence a centre tenet to Eve?
2.So no reward for planning,

Aliventi wrote:
The choice seems pretty clear to me. I don't expect all of you to agree with me. I do however hope you can see that there are some insignificant benefits to another skill training system.


Fixed
Djana Libra
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#52 - 2013-07-11 08:31:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Djana Libra
Freighdee Katt wrote:
This goes somewhat hand in hand with clone costs, which are also a major issue, even after the reduction.

Clone costs mean vet toons do not want to undock for PvP simply because even an empty clone is an order of magnitude greater loss than the cheap frigate or cruiser they might want to take out on a roam..


I don't know what horrible players you play with but i know lots of vets that undock in assault frigs and even t1 frigs for roams and gatecamps.

Seeing how easy it is these days to make isk this is not the reason why they don't want to pvp. They just want to bear their monthly plex and whine about how it was in the old days.


OT: attributes are fine, you don't have to respec into doing 1 thing fast, you can use a distribution for training everything as well.
Rented
Hunter Heavy Industries
#53 - 2013-07-11 09:09:26 UTC
Indeed, attributes are a meaningless system.
Aliventi
Rattini Tribe
Minmatar Fleet Alliance
#54 - 2013-07-11 09:10:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Aliventi
The 2250 SP/hr number was a remapped, with no implants. It is a great baseline for balancing before adding in implants. So... Not a nerf at all. Feel free to switch it with 2700 SP/hr if that makes you happier. It was just a number. I leave it to CCP to make things balanced.

Learning skills are at their base the same as attributes: Use them and you may benefit. Choose not to and you won't benefit. Attributes get in the way of progress of a character just as much, if not more than learning skills did.

1. It will not kill the character bazaar. You still get that "I am here!" feeling. It will take just as long as before. If you are worried about someone selling a 50 mil unallocated SP character then cap the pool at a mil or so SP. That will force people to still make choices that have consequences. And again, 2250 SP/hr was remapped with no implants.
2. Tell me NEVER in your Eve career you have wished for the 24 hour skill queue to be longer. I know I have wished for it to be longer many times. And not everyone is a 50 mil SP toon. Just because you happen to frequently be training 3 day skills doesn't mean we should balance around you.
3. And when CCP decides to go after account sharing? They can't seem to make up their mind what is an exploit and what isn't. They are finally aggressively going after bots. It is a tick-tock time bomb waiting to catch a LOT of people.
4. Severs going down isn't really a worry. But it has happened in the past. And every time people clamor for SP reimbursement. This solves that.
5. It still keeps a count as to how long you have left to train on your skills. We can't see the sever code so who know how much resource wise is being used to update skills and SP. It shouldn't be a game-changing amount of resources.
6. It isn't that confusing when you have it explained to you, use Evemon, and make a plan. But when you come in to this game you, unless you have a RL friend that plays, you are alone. Noobs think a 9 day skill is FOREVER. Now you want to tell them they need to plan a year's worth of skills and remap to make that go faster? Good luck getting them to do that right the first time. Or the second. And it is uncorrectable for a year.
7. Correct, you are only safe in station. There is a reason no one PvPs with +5 implants. That is it costs too much to replace them when you get podded. So you choose safety of a station where you don't undock so you can benefit from your implants. That is less risk for more reward. The choice to not undock and enjoy activities in Eve so you can safely gain more SP/hr never should be a choice. That is not in any realm of meaningful gameplay.
8. There are not coalitions of market traders. There are not coalitions of industrialists. There are are tens of thousands of players in coalitions who shoot each other. Even mission runners, ratters, incursion runners need the same range of core, ship, and combat skills. Those are the people who make up a majority of Eve and need a wide array of skills that involve many different attributes. Generalized plans are nice in theory, but would a majority of Eve choose a generalized plan if they know they would get more SP/hr with a specialized remap? I certainly wouldn't and haven't. I am willing to bet you haven't.

As far as the downside go: Yes. Those would be the few upsides to the current system. Consequences are a central tenant of Eve. I agree to that.

However, attributes offer little to no meaningful gameplay impacting consequences. It isn't like choosing to fit an AB instead of an MWD. The consequence of that choice is meaningful: You may lose your ship because you can't get away as quickly. Or you may be able to get away because a scram can't shut down your AB. The consequence for attributes is you may train skills faster, or you may train skills slower. "That is deep gameplay right there. Eve should have more of that. Screw ship rebalancing and exploration. Who cares about undocking and doing something in Eve.Give more more attributes I can mess with." /sarcasm.
2. That No shouldn't be there. Nice catch.

Just because you are not a noob, have +5 implants and pay $15 a month to sit in a station to keep your implants safe doesn't mean the benefits of another system are purely insignificant. To a noob trying to understand skill training the benefits would be significant. Being able to explain skill training in two sentences instead of a confusing dissertation in attributes, Evemon, and remaps would make a noobs' life easier. There are many people that would enjoy gaining SP just as quickly as a +5 implanted toon while doing something besides sitting in a station to keep 500 mil isk worth of implants safe. The benefits would be significant to them. For someone who doesn't want to account share to keep their skills updated because Eve isn't accessible for long periods of time the benefits would be significant to them. If your computer dies or your area of the world gets nailed by a natural disaster that wipes out power or internet then the benefits would be significant to you.
seth Hendar
I love you miners
#55 - 2013-07-11 13:20:34 UTC
Aliventi wrote:
wall of text


noone pvp with +5?

we clearly don't play in the same game then

i've been doing pvp for now 2 years, and i had all +5 implants on my clones, and on 2 toons, and i can tell you that i'm far from being the only one.

and i started the game in 2010, and i'm able to replace those on the spot in the event i loose them.

clearly not a isk issue here, many ppl can afford to fly with +5, and in the odds a fight / operations have wht they consider high pod risk, just switch to another clone with less expansive implants.



and if you don't like complex game, well just don't come to eve then, go play wow or something you can understand.

when i started, i was solo, and remained for a year and half.

it took me less than an hour to figure out how they work, and around another hour to come up with a correct skillplan to fit my goal (wich was mission running at that time.)

you just have to actually get your lazy ass on google, and there are several tuto's that will give you all the key you need to achieve a correct skillplan.

you seems to be that new generation of player, who want all on-the-spot, so why not remove all skills? go at the end of your idea, and remove all the skills, everyone can use all ship / modules from day1, then it is just about isk.

everyone is now equal, the 5 yo vet and the brand new player can fly exactly the same thing.

people like you are the reason we get the exploration we have now within eve, a theme park filled with unicorns where you just have to click a button, and this is bad, really bad.

this is the best way to kill this game, implement idea like that.

let me tell you something abou this game that you seems to have no clue about.

there are two kind of ppl, the initiators, and the others.

initiators are somehow leading others to various goals, but with such idea, you are driving initiators, who are "old" players for most of them, out of he game.

now, what happen? easy, when one initiator leave, even temporary, all the other ppl do almost nothing, up to a point they don't even log in anymore.

so maybe you should ask this: for each "initiator" who leave, how many regular player leave soon after? 1? 10?

hard to tell, but from experience, i can tell you, it's way more than one think!

and crap like this proposal or the exploration changes is what drive "initiator" out.
Gorgoth24
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#56 - 2013-07-11 16:07:35 UTC
While I personally do not use the attribute system to its full potential, EVE has always been a game of choice and specialization. The more specialized you make your skill tree, the more sp you should get.

My two cents
Adunh Slavy
#57 - 2013-07-11 17:10:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Adunh Slavy
seth Hendar wrote:

you booster last 24h, but sometimes, i don't connect for days, and it doesn't matter, since i'm skilling something that require 20+ days.

with you proposal, i'll have to connect daily, wich is not always possible, hence i'll loose skilltime hence you actually REMOVE something from players instead of improving a mechanic



Ok, they last five days, 10 days, have different variants. This isn't magic, have some imagination.

Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves.  - William Pitt
Aliventi
Rattini Tribe
Minmatar Fleet Alliance
#58 - 2013-07-11 19:43:55 UTC
All, what I am about to do is unprofessional. But I feel based upon the evidence submitted about ourselves by myself and Seth Hendar it is valid. Feel free to skip down to the bolded back on topic where I continue the discussion.

Dear Seth Hendar,

It would make sense that you haven't lost a set of +5s recently. I mean shooting POS in highsec is a high risk activity Roll: Source I tremble before your PvP prowess. Would you like to compare that to my killboard which has my first PvP kill a year and 10 months before yours does: Source

tl;dr is OF COURSE you have no issue PvPing with implants in highsec. You clearly haven't flown a dictor in 0.0. You know, the ship where you place in infinite pointing bubble around yourself? I don't imagine you see too many of those in use in highsec. I have lost multiple dictors and then pods within minutes of each other bubbling enemy fleets. How many day in a row can you pay 1-1.5 bil to replace +5 implants? Thought so.

You think that I don't enjoy complexity in Eve? If I didn't enjoy complexity in Eve I would be here in 0.0 PvPing. You are closer to the WoW scrub then I have ever been. As far as "I am the new generation of players that want on the spot everything" I have been playing the same amount of time as you and I have been PvPing longer than you have in situations you have never experienced. I NEVER want to give anything away for free. If you read my plan you would know that it would take JUST AS LONG to train everything. You have to earn what you get in my book.

"I am the reason we have exploration in Eve. That we have these theme parks in Eve." Yeah. That is brilliant coming from the person who shoots POS mods in highsec. You have 1 kill not in highsec. You are the theme park pubbie here.

You have no right to claim bittervet status. You are NOT one of the "old players". You initiate jack s**t. You are talking to someone who actually PvPs. Who FCs fleets. Someone who has helped invade and grind down REGIONS of space in 0.0. I know this game better than you. I guarantee it. When you have credentials like mine you can come talk to me and I will give you the respect you clearly haven't earned right now.

You are no better than a highsec miner. In fact, highsec miners have more actual PvP experience than you do because they get ganked on a daily basis.

Love,

Aliventi

Back on topic:

And you know what: With everything I have done, with everything I have earned in this game, I understand. There are advantages to the attributes system. I milk those advantages for all they are worth. As far as skill training in concerned I am no different than any other +5 implant character. All 3 of my toons have access to implants. It does provide a choice, a consequence, and some complexity.

But push comes to shove, attributes add no meaningful gameplay. There are just not necessary. They don't contribute to Eve in a way that provides entertainment for people to enjoy. I would rather spend 1 minute dealing with skills with a cut and dry simple system than the hours we spend now. You can get the exact same end game with another system and that other system may have benefits that a lot of people would enjoy. Is it the system I proposed? Maybe. Maybe not. I am sure if CCP decides to remove attributes they will come up with a system that has some pretty awesome advantages over the current one.
Callic Veratar
#59 - 2013-07-11 20:30:41 UTC
I got an idea of what to do with the base implants. We have 5 slots and all the different implants have +1 to +5. (Up to +7 if to include the unreleased ones).

When attributes are dropped, change these implants into 'core competency' implants:

Each of the implants gives small (n*0.5% or n*1%) bonus to one of: Hull, Armor, Shield, Capacitor, and Velocity.

In this, they can give a slight bonus to whatever a player may need. The implants are all valuable and the low grade ones (+1, +2, and +3) are super cheap.
Soko99
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#60 - 2013-07-12 00:35:05 UTC
I have a love hate relationship with the attributes. While I hate the inefficiency involved in learning skills that I'm not geared for, it makes the whole planning ahead part of the game much more worth while.

Eve has always been about the game of consequences, and remapping attributes does just that. If you don't want to worry about the non-specced skills. then just respec your attributes to all the same and problem solved.