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Naga design question - why not cruise missiles??

Author
Ariel Dawn
Daerie Inc.
Toilet Paper.
#21 - 2011-11-08 21:40:53 UTC
Cruise missiles would make it too effective against smaller targets while torpedoes, while not as good as other turret weapon systems restrict it to their intended targets.
Hans Jagerblitzen
Ice Fire Warriors
Wild Geese.
#22 - 2011-11-08 21:44:37 UTC
Ariel Dawn wrote:
Cruise missiles would make it too effective against smaller targets while torpedoes, while not as good as other turret weapon systems restrict it to their intended targets.


Makes perfect sense. I've never really trained up Cruise missiles on any toon, so I'll admit I'm unfamiliar with what they can do against small targets.

CPM0 Chairman / CSM7 Vice Secretary

EvEa Deva
Doomheim
#23 - 2011-11-08 22:29:54 UTC
Rocky Deadshot wrote:
Torps because its caldari... hybrids because missiles suck.... not cruise because Rails will apply more dps with no sig radius factor from extreme range.

Cruise missiles are regularly fitted on ravens, scorpions, widows, rattlesnakes, Navy Issues Scorp/Raven, and occasionally on Golems by missioners that are lazy and dont want to have to deal with range issues.

Torps are fitted on bombers, golems, and occasionally in pvp when the pilot failed to realize that missiles (especially large ones) suck. Sorry... but if the Naga was to be a pure missile boat... it would have just been laughed out of existence... like the drake


yeah because no-one uses the drake anymore Roll <--used this because they didnt have a /slap one
Rocky Deadshot
In The Goo
EVE Trade Alliance
#24 - 2011-11-09 05:52:48 UTC
EvEa Deva wrote:
Rocky Deadshot wrote:
Torps because its caldari... hybrids because missiles suck.... not cruise because Rails will apply more dps with no sig radius factor from extreme range.

Cruise missiles are regularly fitted on ravens, scorpions, widows, rattlesnakes, Navy Issues Scorp/Raven, and occasionally on Golems by missioners that are lazy and dont want to have to deal with range issues.

Torps are fitted on bombers, golems, and occasionally in pvp when the pilot failed to realize that missiles (especially large ones) suck. Sorry... but if the Naga was to be a pure missile boat... it would have just been laughed out of existence... like the drake


yeah because no-one uses the drake anymore Roll <--used this because they didnt have a /slap one



The drake isn't used because of its pvp pawnage (although its pretty massive buffer tank is attractive). Its used because so many newer pilots come into this game and skill for missiles and BC is a cross faction skill, and because its relatively cheap and could potentially get just enough dps in on a target while they try to chew through its massive buffer. It was also used for the missile lag, back before they fixed missile lag (and i suspect that mentality has stuck around). The drake is a complete joke to most players in this game, its the butt to pretty much every ship related joke i know, its seen as the noob ship that functions as a stepping stone to the rest of eve.

I still have a my "Flying USB Ports" laying around in one of my ship bays somewhere.
Nimrod Nemesis
Doomheim
#25 - 2011-11-09 05:56:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Nimrod Nemesis
Ariel Dawn wrote:
Cruise missiles would make it too effective against smaller targets while torpedoes, while not as good as other turret weapon systems restrict it to their intended targets.


Ah, of course. Roll

Nevermind the fact an arty tornado or tach oracle can easily hit smaller targets for more damage than a cruise missile on a naga ever could and let's certainly not bring up the fact torps "intended target," list is restricted to slow BS with larget sig and caps/structures.

Call me when missiles get a tracking computer equivalent that doesn't hog up a rig slot. Make sure to ring me twice if they reduce flight time enough that I can actually hit a target before a turret ship destroys it.
Alara IonStorm
#26 - 2011-11-09 06:02:21 UTC
Nimrod Nemesis wrote:

Ah, of course. Roll

Nevermind the fact an arty tornado or tach oracle can easily hit smaller targets for more damage than a cruise missile on a naga ever could and let's certainly not bring up the fact torps "intended target," list is restricted to slow BS with larget sig and caps/structures.

CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Cruise missiles: initial reasons not to have them were because of the following combination:


* Hit smaller targets: may be made to reliably hit smaller targets with target painters/rigs
* Reliable projection: they have a fairly long range, within which the Naga doesn't have to worry about capacitor or transversal velocity
* Mobility: Naga can use points above to deliver long range constant damage while being quite difficult to catch itself


You could argue points above are not always applicable and you would be right, which is why cruise missiles are still being considered. However, it they are introduced into the Naga, hybrid bonuses most likely will be removed from it

I bolded the good part.

Here is hoping.
Pteranodon
Perkone
Caldari State
#27 - 2011-11-09 14:14:36 UTC
Rocky Deadshot wrote:
EvEa Deva wrote:
Rocky Deadshot wrote:
Torps because its caldari... hybrids because missiles suck.... not cruise because Rails will apply more dps with no sig radius factor from extreme range.

Cruise missiles are regularly fitted on ravens, scorpions, widows, rattlesnakes, Navy Issues Scorp/Raven, and occasionally on Golems by missioners that are lazy and dont want to have to deal with range issues.

Torps are fitted on bombers, golems, and occasionally in pvp when the pilot failed to realize that missiles (especially large ones) suck. Sorry... but if the Naga was to be a pure missile boat... it would have just been laughed out of existence... like the drake


yeah because no-one uses the drake anymore Roll <--used this because they didnt have a /slap one



The drake isn't used because of its pvp pawnage (although its pretty massive buffer tank is attractive). Its used because so many newer pilots come into this game and skill for missiles and BC is a cross faction skill, and because its relatively cheap and could potentially get just enough dps in on a target while they try to chew through its massive buffer. It was also used for the missile lag, back before they fixed missile lag (and i suspect that mentality has stuck around). The drake is a complete joke to most players in this game, its the butt to pretty much every ship related joke i know, its seen as the noob ship that functions as a stepping stone to the rest of eve.

I still have a my "Flying USB Ports" laying around in one of my ship bays somewhere.


I could not disagree more about the Drake being a joke. I find it an exceptionally useful ship particularly where cost vs loss can be a consideration. I can tank the AE bonus room in a passive Drake and there are not many tec1 ships that can do that at minimal cost. As with all ships the Drake excels in some areas and whilst not having the best DPS in the game it can be made to shine in a few focused roles.
Soi Mala
Whacky Waving Inflatable Flailing Arm Tubemen
#28 - 2011-11-09 14:18:59 UTC
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:
I was curious about the Naga’s design choice of being a torpedo boat. I envisioned it much more as a cruise missile platform. Torpedos are already seen fitted to Ravens, Typhoons, and of course Stealth Bombers, whereas cruise missiles are really one viable on Ravens, and rarely seen in PvP.

If the Tier 3 BC’s are designed for assaults on very large targets, this would negate some of the very weaknesses of cruise missiles- the large explosion radius, and the delay between launch and impact during large bombardments. Cruises would hit for maximum damage against capital ships due to their massive size, and could truly make the most of a damage bonus or rate of fire bonus. This would give Caldari an opportunity to use this weapon outside of PvE. And, of course, you’d still be quite vulnerable to smaller ships getting a tackle on you.

Lets say your gang had a capital ship scrambled – the takedown would take long enough that a squad of Nagas beginning a bombardment with cruise missiles would still make a big impact on the DPS, and be able to do while keeping range and avoiding defenses like heavy neuts. They wouldn’t be fat sitting ducks like a cruise raven either, and can take advantage of the fact that the speed of your ship and transversal won’t affect your DPS while orbiting and bombing your target.

If the goal is to make the Naga flexible at range and up close, than you could still use the optimal range bonus to enhance 8 large blasters, though obviously not living up to the Talos in terms of DPS. I think at very minimum the bonus should be changed to allow for cruise missile setups, if not getting a specialized bonus to cruise missiles.

Any thoughts from the developers or players on cruisey Nagas?


I bet you're the guy who used to turn up to sniper fleets in a cruise raven.

"BUT GUIS IT CAN HITS OUT TO 250KILOMETERS!"
Hans Jagerblitzen
Ice Fire Warriors
Wild Geese.
#29 - 2011-11-09 15:17:22 UTC
Soi Mala wrote:

I bet you're the guy who used to turn up to sniper fleets in a cruise raven.

"BUT GUIS IT CAN HITS OUT TO 250KILOMETERS!"



Hahahaha no. The reason for my totally noobish-sounding question is that I've been playing for two years and never even injected Caldari Cruiser. I hated the drake so much (for some of the aforementioned reasons) I refused to fly it on principle. Thus, I still couldnt fly a Raven still if I wanted to.

I'm also quite aware of why cruise missiles dont work for "sniping", though I didn't know they could hit small stuff effectively. I haven't run a mission in highsec for probably 18 months, and I've never seen them in a PvP scenario, which was the reason for my initial question. I was simply curious why the Naga couldn't have been used to give a (seemingly) underused weapon system some measure of effectiveness, through bonuses perhaps, but I see now how they wouldn't fit well with the role.

I guess I was just like "Mmmmm ANOTHER torpedo boat? Really?" Everyone's responses have made sense, I'm not trying to crusade for cruise missiles I just honestly know very little about how they work in practice.

CPM0 Chairman / CSM7 Vice Secretary

OmniBeton
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#30 - 2011-11-09 16:33:13 UTC
Alara IonStorm wrote:
Nimrod Nemesis wrote:

Ah, of course. Roll

Nevermind the fact an arty tornado or tach oracle can easily hit smaller targets for more damage than a cruise missile on a naga ever could and let's certainly not bring up the fact torps "intended target," list is restricted to slow BS with larget sig and caps/structures.

CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Cruise missiles: initial reasons not to have them were because of the following combination:


* Hit smaller targets: may be made to reliably hit smaller targets with target painters/rigs
* Reliable projection: they have a fairly long range, within which the Naga doesn't have to worry about capacitor or transversal velocity
* Mobility: Naga can use points above to deliver long range constant damage while being quite difficult to catch itself


You could argue points above are not always applicable and you would be right, which is why cruise missiles are still being considered. However, it they are introduced into the Naga, hybrid bonuses most likely will be removed from it

I bolded the good part.

Here is hoping.


Yes, Naga, as any missile ship desn't need to worry about transversal velocity. It needs to wory about EVERY velocity - direction matters not.

And the best one is here : Naga, Caldari ship ... "quite difficult to catch" :D :D :D
Zendoren
Aktaeon Industries
#31 - 2011-11-09 16:38:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Zendoren
Large Collidable Object wrote:
Abrazzar wrote:
Probably because you could just kite rats with it and the tier 3s aren't made with PvE in mind.



If that was what CCP had in mind, only short range turrets would receive a bonus (although I don't know if bonusing short range turrets only would be possible without some recoding).


In that case the Oracle should only be able to fit Pulse lazers!!!

❒ Single ❒ Taken ✔ Playing EVE Online

CCP Guard > Where's the shoot button on this thing?

CCP Space Cadet > What's this "offline guns" button do?

Hans Jagerblitzen
Ice Fire Warriors
Wild Geese.
#32 - 2011-11-09 16:42:35 UTC
Zendoren wrote:


In that case the Oracle should only be able to fit Pulse lazers!!!


Wait - people fit beam lazers???

CPM0 Chairman / CSM7 Vice Secretary

Covert Kitty
SRS Industries
#33 - 2011-11-09 17:21:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Covert Kitty
Quote:
Wait - people fit beam lazers???

And rails, arty, etc. Shoot and kite are what these ships are all about. They have very little tank, I love them as they are right now, they are a ton of fun with a friend to tackle. Very much looking forward to this going live on sisi. It's a party on sisi all-day erry-day right now. :D
Nimrod Nemesis
Doomheim
#34 - 2011-11-09 20:29:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Nimrod Nemesis
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:

I'm also quite aware of why cruise missiles dont work for "sniping", though I didn't know they could hit small stuff effectively. I haven't run a mission in highsec for probably 18 months, and I've never seen them in a PvP scenario, which was the reason for my initial question. I was simply curious why the Naga couldn't have been used to give a (seemingly) underused weapon system some measure of effectiveness, through bonuses perhaps, but I see now how they wouldn't fit well with the role.


Just to be clear, cruise missiles - don't - hit small stuff effectively. The only thing that makes them at-all desireable is the incredibly low range of torps (and lack of tracking modules to assist this, other than rigs) and their even-more-pathetic applied-dps against BS and down targets. I don't think cruise missiles would be a big step up, without dedicating both bonuses to launchers, but better that than caldari getting another hybrid ship that's going to need balancing (since ccp is still struggling with that in general).
SilentSkills
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#35 - 2011-11-09 21:51:59 UTC
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:
I was curious about the Naga’s design choice of being a torpedo boat. I envisioned it much more as a cruise missile platform. Torpedos are already seen fitted to Ravens, Typhoons, and of course Stealth Bombers, whereas cruise missiles are really one viable on Ravens, and rarely seen in PvP.


I underlined the answer to your question

Cruise Naga = useless naga.
In fleets you want instant damage at long range. No one wants their damage to take several seconds to arrive. Hence guns on Naga. Hence why you don't see many PVP cruise ravens, aside from the failbear fits
Hans Jagerblitzen
Ice Fire Warriors
Wild Geese.
#36 - 2011-11-09 21:56:07 UTC
SilentSkills wrote:
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:
I was curious about the Naga’s design choice of being a torpedo boat. I envisioned it much more as a cruise missile platform. Torpedos are already seen fitted to Ravens, Typhoons, and of course Stealth Bombers, whereas cruise missiles are really one viable on Ravens, and rarely seen in PvP.


I underlined the answer to your question

Cruise Naga = useless naga.
In fleets you want instant damage at long range. No one wants their damage to take several seconds to arrive. Hence guns on Naga. Hence why you don't see many PVP cruise ravens, aside from the failbear fits


Well yes, I understand that they aren't viable for PvP in their current form. Thats why I was curious if and why it wasn't possible to give a bonus to the Naga that changes that fact. Damage bonus, speed bonus, I dunno. As has already been said, my understanding of cruises is minimal, which is why I was picking the brains of other folks here.

CPM0 Chairman / CSM7 Vice Secretary

Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
#37 - 2011-11-09 22:10:30 UTC
The question I ask is, can this thing maintain high speed in a tight enough orbit for torp range without getting picked off by large turrets?


Bring back DEEEEP Space!

Anya Ohaya
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#38 - 2011-11-09 23:39:05 UTC
Just use rails for ratting, or stick with a Raven. You can easily hit frigates at long (50km+) range and these new BC should be fast enough to keep most rats at long range. I find that railguns only really have trouble hitting stuff under about 30km.
non judgement
Without Fear
Flying Burning Ships Alliance
#39 - 2011-11-09 23:51:40 UTC
I'm still waiting for cruisers that can only fit a doomsday device.
Alara IonStorm
#40 - 2011-11-09 23:59:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Alara IonStorm
SilentSkills wrote:

Cruise Naga = useless naga.
In fleets you want instant damage at long range. No one wants their damage to take several seconds to arrive. Hence guns on Naga. Hence why you don't see many PVP cruise ravens, aside from the failbear fits

Underlined the part where you went wrong.[/quote]

Problems with Cruise Missile are not why they are not used. Cruise Missiles are a fine PvP Weapon. The Platforms they come on suck.

Attitudes about velocity went out the window when Heavy Missile Fleets came about. Cruise Missiles have the same velocity as Heavy Missiles. As for there flight time you can hit targets with Cruise Missiles just fine in the 20-70km kill zone of Heavy Missiles at the same time. The takes forever argument falls apart when when you don't fire them off past 80km but still have the option too.

The issues with Cruise PvP are such.

* Raven 6 Launchers, Typhoon 5 Launchers. All other Fleet Battleships used have 7-8 Weapons or 2 Dmg Bonuses.
* Battleships that do carry Cruise Missiles can not keep up with Missile Fleets currently in use.

The fact that there is not a Missile Battleship good enough to build a Fleet around is the reason they are not used.

8 Cruise Naga with a Dmg Bonus will see action in Missile Fleets.
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