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Market Scamming is an Exploit

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BoSau Hotim
Uitraan Diversified Holdings Incorporated
#241 - 2013-07-11 03:41:24 UTC
Harry Forever wrote:
.

...they think a scam should have never consequences for the scammer, they need those game mechanics in order for them to get advantage of others, because they are missing skill and brainpower to succeed in a different way

like in real life, scammers are those who are unable to succeed in life, therefore try to succeed at the expense of others



This whole game is pretty much about gaining the advantage over others, in PvP, Market, wardecs, mining, manufacturing, etc etc.

Here I go on my soapbox again: Who made you the in game moral police? Just because someone uses a game mechanic in a legitimate way, one where CCP knows about it and allows it you say they are less better than you? You say that in rl they are bad people? THIS IS A GAME. Designed to be dark and harsh, and when a player decides they want to go down that dark path you personally attack them?

Do you think that everyone who pirates, scams, is involved in corp espionage, steals assets, awoxes that they do all of this in real life at the same time too? You are the one who needs a reality check my friend.

I'm not a carebear... I'm a SPACE BARBIE!  Now... where's Ken?
Verunae Caseti
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#242 - 2013-07-11 05:47:21 UTC
Ace Uoweme wrote:

EvE isn't the roughest PvP game out there. There's worse.


Nah, not really.
Harry Forever
Pandemic Horde Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#243 - 2013-07-11 06:51:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Harry Forever
BoSau Hotim wrote:
Harry Forever wrote:
.

...they think a scam should have never consequences for the scammer, they need those game mechanics in order for them to get advantage of others, because they are missing skill and brainpower to succeed in a different way

like in real life, scammers are those who are unable to succeed in life, therefore try to succeed at the expense of others



This whole game is pretty much about gaining the advantage over others, in PvP, Market, wardecs, mining, manufacturing, etc etc.

Here I go on my soapbox again: Who made you the in game moral police? Just because someone uses a game mechanic in a legitimate way, one where CCP knows about it and allows it you say they are less better than you? You say that in rl they are bad people? THIS IS A GAME. Designed to be dark and harsh, and when a player decides they want to go down that dark path you personally attack them?

Do you think that everyone who pirates, scams, is involved in corp espionage, steals assets, awoxes that they do all of this in real life at the same time too? You are the one who needs a reality check my friend.



they got serious flaws in their personality yes, I say this because this is the way I want to play it, I'm bringing consequences to scammers because there are non in the game, just a natural thing to do... you may just leave the game if you are not happy with my playstyle

scammers are allowed to scam, fine, I'm allowed to tell them what I think of it, no? is this just a one way freedome? wake up, just a game, just a game dude and I'm playing it different

scamming is no fun anymore when i say those things right? yea guess what, its no fun for those who got scammed either

CCP does not fight scamming, so here you go, I fight it with words, this is what scammers are begging for

go on scamming, fine for me, but at least know who you are

Harry Forever vs. Goonswarm
BoSau Hotim
Uitraan Diversified Holdings Incorporated
#244 - 2013-07-11 07:27:59 UTC
Harry Forever wrote:
BoSau Hotim wrote:
Harry Forever wrote:
.

...they think a scam should have never consequences for the scammer, they need those game mechanics in order for them to get advantage of others, because they are missing skill and brainpower to succeed in a different way

like in real life, scammers are those who are unable to succeed in life, therefore try to succeed at the expense of others



This whole game is pretty much about gaining the advantage over others, in PvP, Market, wardecs, mining, manufacturing, etc etc.

Here I go on my soapbox again: Who made you the in game moral police? Just because someone uses a game mechanic in a legitimate way, one where CCP knows about it and allows it you say they are less better than you? You say that in rl they are bad people? THIS IS A GAME. Designed to be dark and harsh, and when a player decides they want to go down that dark path you personally attack them?

Do you think that everyone who pirates, scams, is involved in corp espionage, steals assets, awoxes that they do all of this in real life at the same time too? You are the one who needs a reality check my friend.



they got serious flaws in their personality yes, I say this because this is the way I want to play it, I'm bringing consequences to scammers because there are non in the game, just a natural thing to do... you may just leave the game if you are not happy with my playstyle

scammers are allowed to scam, fine, I'm allowed to tell them what I think of it, no? is this just a one way freedome? wake up, just a game, just a game dude and I'm playing it different

scamming is no fun anymore when i say those things right? yea guess what, its no fun for those who got scammed either

CCP does not fight scamming, so here you go, I fight it with words, this is what scammers are begging for

go on scamming, fine for me, but at least know who you are



Well, you and I dont' know them in real life. So who is to say what each scammer is like. You are allowed to say what you think of them yes. But you dont' know them so your showing yourself to be rather foolish making statements about people you dont' know.

So basically your the morality police. You get to say who is a good person and who is not in RL based on how they play. Is podding ok? or are those who pod have personality flaws too? What about ganking?

You don't seem to be able to see the line between a fantasy game and RL. That is a personality flaw my friend.

I'm not a carebear... I'm a SPACE BARBIE!  Now... where's Ken?
Harry Forever
Pandemic Horde Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#245 - 2013-07-11 07:40:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Harry Forever
BoSau Hotim wrote:
Harry Forever wrote:
BoSau Hotim wrote:
Harry Forever wrote:
.

...they think a scam should have never consequences for the scammer, they need those game mechanics in order for them to get advantage of others, because they are missing skill and brainpower to succeed in a different way

like in real life, scammers are those who are unable to succeed in life, therefore try to succeed at the expense of others



This whole game is pretty much about gaining the advantage over others, in PvP, Market, wardecs, mining, manufacturing, etc etc.

Here I go on my soapbox again: Who made you the in game moral police? Just because someone uses a game mechanic in a legitimate way, one where CCP knows about it and allows it you say they are less better than you? You say that in rl they are bad people? THIS IS A GAME. Designed to be dark and harsh, and when a player decides they want to go down that dark path you personally attack them?

Do you think that everyone who pirates, scams, is involved in corp espionage, steals assets, awoxes that they do all of this in real life at the same time too? You are the one who needs a reality check my friend.



they got serious flaws in their personality yes, I say this because this is the way I want to play it, I'm bringing consequences to scammers because there are non in the game, just a natural thing to do... you may just leave the game if you are not happy with my playstyle

scammers are allowed to scam, fine, I'm allowed to tell them what I think of it, no? is this just a one way freedome? wake up, just a game, just a game dude and I'm playing it different

scamming is no fun anymore when i say those things right? yea guess what, its no fun for those who got scammed either

CCP does not fight scamming, so here you go, I fight it with words, this is what scammers are begging for

go on scamming, fine for me, but at least know who you are



Well, you and I dont' know them in real life. So who is to say what each scammer is like. You are allowed to say what you think of them yes. But you dont' know them so your showing yourself to be rather foolish making statements about people you dont' know.

So basically your the morality police. You get to say who is a good person and who is not in RL based on how they play. Is podding ok? or are those who pod have personality flaws too? What about ganking?

You don't seem to be able to see the line between a fantasy game and RL. That is a personality flaw my friend.



you are getting there, your "just a game" excuse is the only thing foolish, RL money is involved to play it and you can get scammed loosing plex, thats costs money you know

check all games on this planets there are rules, know why? think about it, you are not allowed to betray in tennis, football, chess nowhere, there are reasons for that, you kids don't understand

scamming damages the game in the long run, do you play with people who betray in tennis? chess?

is scamming needed for a game? if you think so, you do not have a clue about gaming

the scammers are just annyoing and for the long run they just isolate themselves so its not good for them either

but keep on doing what you do and find out for yourself... I'm fine with that.

Harry Forever vs. Goonswarm
BoSau Hotim
Uitraan Diversified Holdings Incorporated
#246 - 2013-07-11 07:51:09 UTC
Harry Forever wrote:

you are getting there, your "just a game" excuse is the only thing foolish, RL money is involved to play it and you can get scammed loosing plex, thats costs money you know

check all games on this planets there are rules, know why? think about it, you are not allowed to betray in tennis, football, chess nowhere, there are reasons for that, you kids don't understand


There are rules here. The margin trading scammers are abiding by the rules. If someone is foolish enough to gamble their isk by REFUSING to do research on market prices then it is THE BUYERS FAULT.

You blur the line between fantasy and reallity. If your soooo involved and gambling your real money by plexing so much then maybe you need to stop playing because you can't handle it.

I'm not a carebear... I'm a SPACE BARBIE!  Now... where's Ken?
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#247 - 2013-07-11 07:52:27 UTC
Harry Forever wrote:
CCP does not fight scamming, so here you go, I fight it with words, this is what scammers are begging for



So, instead of actually doing something about them (contrary to popular belief, you can hurt margin scammers), you decide to pick the least effective way possible to fight them and spend your time and energy doing that?

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Harry Forever
Pandemic Horde Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#248 - 2013-07-11 08:11:21 UTC
BoSau Hotim wrote:
Harry Forever wrote:

you are getting there, your "just a game" excuse is the only thing foolish, RL money is involved to play it and you can get scammed loosing plex, thats costs money you know

check all games on this planets there are rules, know why? think about it, you are not allowed to betray in tennis, football, chess nowhere, there are reasons for that, you kids don't understand


There are rules here. The margin trading scammers are abiding by the rules. If someone is foolish enough to gamble their isk by REFUSING to do research on market prices then it is THE BUYERS FAULT.

You blur the line between fantasy and reallity. If your soooo involved and gambling your real money by plexing so much then maybe you need to stop playing because you can't handle it.


I'm not talking about me, scammers are stealing childrens time and pocket money, nothing more, because they are the only ones who fall to those scams, deal with it

Harry Forever vs. Goonswarm
Harry Forever
Pandemic Horde Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#249 - 2013-07-11 08:12:11 UTC
RubyPorto wrote:
Harry Forever wrote:
CCP does not fight scamming, so here you go, I fight it with words, this is what scammers are begging for



So, instead of actually doing something about them (contrary to popular belief, you can hurt margin scammers), you decide to pick the least effective way possible to fight them and spend your time and energy doing that?


words are the most effective, trust me

Harry Forever vs. Goonswarm
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#250 - 2013-07-11 08:22:12 UTC  |  Edited by: RubyPorto
Harry Forever wrote:

you are getting there, your "just a game" excuse is the only thing foolish, RL money is involved to play it and you can get scammed loosing plex, thats costs money you know


EULA wrote:
PROPRIETARY RIGHTS
A. Ownership of Software, System and Game

As between you and CCP, CCP is the sole and exclusive owner of the Software, System, Game and Game Content (as defined below). The Software, System, Game and all Game Content are protected by law governing copyrights, trademarks and other proprietary rights. CCP reserves all rights not expressly granted herein.

The Game is comprised of, without limitation, ... characters (and items, currency, objects and attributes comprising or associated with a character or an Account)

...

B. Rights to Certain Content

You have no interest in the value of your time spent playing the Game, for example, by the building up of the experience level of your character and the items your character accumulates during your time playing the Game. Your Account, and all attributes of your Account, including all corporations, actions, groups, titles and characters, and all objects, currency and items acquired, developed or delivered by or to characters as a result of play through your Accounts, are the sole and exclusive property of CCP,


CCP used EULA. It's Super Effective.

The PLEX you lost has no monetary value (and, even if it did, does not belong to you). The ISK you lost, no matter the source, has no monetary value and does not belong to you. The only way these things have a monetary value is if you are engaged in RMT, and even then, they do not belong to you.

Quote:
check all games on this planets there are rules, know why? think about it, you are not allowed to betray in tennis, football, chess nowhere, there are reasons for that, you kids don't understand

Look up Diplomacy. It's one of the best and longest lived boardgames around, and was favored by JFK and Kissenger.
Central to its gameplay is betraying the alliances you make with your friends.

In Football, they're called Trick plays (trick the other team to gain an advantage, just like the scammer is tricking you).
In Chess, they're called any number of specialist terms (ditto)
In Tennis, they're called trick shots (ditto)

Harry Forever wrote:
words are the most effective, trust me


So which margin scammer have you harmed or otherwise dissuaded from their chosen EVE profession with these words of yours?

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Omar Ser-Amon
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#251 - 2013-07-11 08:28:17 UTC
I think the main issue here is that a player should be safe in the belief that the ingame market system as it stands there is reliable.

That means, if there is a buy order, you will receive payment after its fulfillment.

Those who defend this kind of abuse of Magin Trading say that a player - all players - should be avare that any time, any buy order may result in non-payment by the buyer. I think this is contrary to the general belief about the ingame market system - any market system in any game. Unless this knowledge is somehow communicated to players, I think it's a rather unfair deficiency that leads to a valid embarassment: if you fail for the scam, you were fooled not only by another person, but also by the game you trusted aswell.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#252 - 2013-07-11 08:32:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Harry Forever wrote:
check all games on this planets there are rules, know why? think about it, you are not allowed to betray in tennis, football, chess nowhere, there are reasons for that, you kids don't understand
Ehm. Betrayal is as allowed (and common, and even necessary) in those games, and in pretty much all others that have involve something more complex than “roll die, move game piece”.

Quote:
scamming damages the game in the long run
Just like in the sports and games you mention, it makes the game more interesting and increases longevity since there will be a constant evolution of tactic and countertactic.

Omar Ser-Amon wrote:
Those who defend this kind of abuse of Magin Trading say that a player - all players - should be avare that any time, any buy order may result in non-payment by the buyer.
No, largely because that's not what happens. If you fulfil a buy order, you will receive payment. What everyone who understand the mechanics are saying is that buy orders are not guaranteed trades for any one of a myriad of reasons. They may expire; they may be cancelled; they may be sniped; they may run out of escrow. Only one of those have anything to do with margin trading. We are also saying that when you invest in something, you should do some research on the actual value of your investment.

The scam is not actually the buy order, but the inflated sell order or contract you used without first checking if the price was reasonable…
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#253 - 2013-07-11 08:33:18 UTC
Omar Ser-Amon wrote:
I think the main issue here is that a player should be safe in the belief that the ingame market system as it stands there is reliable.

That means, if there is a buy order, you will receive payment after its fulfillment.



And you do receive payment any time you fulfill a buy order.

In the case of uncovered escrow, the order fails to be fulfilled, so the buyer gets nothing (and loses the market fees), and the seller loses nothing (they still have their stuff and are free to sell to the next buy order).

Players should be aware that orders may disappear at any time for any number of reasons. How is the order failing due to lack of escrow any different from someone else selling to the order moments before you try to? Or the buyer canceling the order between the time you buy the item and try to sell it?

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Harry Forever
Pandemic Horde Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#254 - 2013-07-11 08:41:26 UTC
RubyPorto wrote:
Harry Forever wrote:

you are getting there, your "just a game" excuse is the only thing foolish, RL money is involved to play it and you can get scammed loosing plex, thats costs money you know


EULA wrote:
PROPRIETARY RIGHTS
A. Ownership of Software, System and Game

As between you and CCP, CCP is the sole and exclusive owner of the Software, System, Game and Game Content (as defined below). The Software, System, Game and all Game Content are protected by law governing copyrights, trademarks and other proprietary rights. CCP reserves all rights not expressly granted herein.

The Game is comprised of, without limitation, ... characters (and items, currency, objects and attributes comprising or associated with a character or an Account)

...

B. Rights to Certain Content

You have no interest in the value of your time spent playing the Game, for example, by the building up of the experience level of your character and the items your character accumulates during your time playing the Game. Your Account, and all attributes of your Account, including all corporations, actions, groups, titles and characters, and all objects, currency and items acquired, developed or delivered by or to characters as a result of play through your Accounts, are the sole and exclusive property of CCP,


CCP used EULA. It's Super Effective.

The PLEX you lost has no monetary value (and, even if it did, does not belong to you). The ISK you lost, no matter the source, has no monetary value and does not belong to you. The only way these things have a monetary value is if you are engaged in RMT, and even then, they do not belong to you.

Quote:
check all games on this planets there are rules, know why? think about it, you are not allowed to betray in tennis, football, chess nowhere, there are reasons for that, you kids don't understand

Look up Diplomacy. It's one of the best and longest lived boardgames around, and was favored by JFK and Kissenger.
Central to its gameplay is betraying the alliances you make with your friends.

In Football, they're called Trick plays (trick the other team to gain an advantage, just like the scammer is tricking you).
In Chess, they're called any number of specialist terms (ditto)
In Tennis, they're called trick shots (ditto)

Harry Forever wrote:
words are the most effective, trust me


So which margin scammer have you harmed or otherwise dissuaded from their chosen EVE profession with these words of yours?


just wait and see

Harry Forever vs. Goonswarm
BoSau Hotim
Uitraan Diversified Holdings Incorporated
#255 - 2013-07-11 08:50:44 UTC
Harry Forever wrote:
BoSau Hotim wrote:
Harry Forever wrote:

you are getting there, your "just a game" excuse is the only thing foolish, RL money is involved to play it and you can get scammed loosing plex, thats costs money you know

check all games on this planets there are rules, know why? think about it, you are not allowed to betray in tennis, football, chess nowhere, there are reasons for that, you kids don't understand


There are rules here. The margin trading scammers are abiding by the rules. If someone is foolish enough to gamble their isk by REFUSING to do research on market prices then it is THE BUYERS FAULT.

You blur the line between fantasy and reallity. If your soooo involved and gambling your real money by plexing so much then maybe you need to stop playing because you can't handle it.


I'm not talking about me, scammers are stealing childrens time and pocket money, nothing more, because they are the only ones who fall to those scams, deal with it



lololol

trolololololololol or really out of touch with reality and needs medication Bear

I'm not a carebear... I'm a SPACE BARBIE!  Now... where's Ken?
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#256 - 2013-07-11 08:56:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Jonah Gravenstein
Tippia wrote:
We are also saying that when you invest in something, you should do some research on the actual value of your investment.


Further to this, the standard boilerplate caveat on any investment is
"The value of your investment can go down as well as up and the value is not guaranteed. You may get back less than your original investment." or words to that effect.

You'll find that on any contract that has to do with investment.

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

New Player FAQ

Feyd's Survival Pack
BoSau Hotim
Uitraan Diversified Holdings Incorporated
#257 - 2013-07-11 08:58:42 UTC
Omar Ser-Amon wrote:
I think the main issue here is that a player should be safe in the belief that the ingame market system as it stands there is reliable.

That means, if there is a buy order, you will receive payment after its fulfillment.

Those who defend this kind of abuse of Magin Trading say that a player - all players - should be avare that any time, any buy order may result in non-payment by the buyer. I think this is contrary to the general belief about the ingame market system - any market system in any game. Unless this knowledge is somehow communicated to players, I think it's a rather unfair deficiency that leads to a valid embarassment: if you fail for the scam, you were fooled not only by another person, but also by the game you trusted aswell.



Sorry, All players should be safe in the belief that pirating, scamming, lying, podding, ganking, espionage, corp theft, dec'ing, pvp, gate camps, and the like are what is reliable in this game

Thinking that you are safe in this game is basically stating that you do not know what this game is about. You really cannot compare this market system to any other game's market system.

There is no abuse going on IMO. Stating that there is abuse is stating that players have found a way to use something to their advantage that CCP does not condone.


I'm not a carebear... I'm a SPACE BARBIE!  Now... where's Ken?
Harry Forever
Pandemic Horde Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#258 - 2013-07-11 09:20:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Harry Forever
BoSau Hotim wrote:
Harry Forever wrote:
BoSau Hotim wrote:
Harry Forever wrote:

you are getting there, your "just a game" excuse is the only thing foolish, RL money is involved to play it and you can get scammed loosing plex, thats costs money you know

check all games on this planets there are rules, know why? think about it, you are not allowed to betray in tennis, football, chess nowhere, there are reasons for that, you kids don't understand


There are rules here. The margin trading scammers are abiding by the rules. If someone is foolish enough to gamble their isk by REFUSING to do research on market prices then it is THE BUYERS FAULT.

You blur the line between fantasy and reallity. If your soooo involved and gambling your real money by plexing so much then maybe you need to stop playing because you can't handle it.


I'm not talking about me, scammers are stealing childrens time and pocket money, nothing more, because they are the only ones who fall to those scams, deal with it



lololol

trolololololololol or really out of touch with reality and needs medication Bear


you might want to use those pills for yourself kid

Harry Forever vs. Goonswarm
Mag's
Azn Empire
#259 - 2013-07-11 09:50:10 UTC
Harry Forever wrote:
BoSau Hotim wrote:



Well, you and I dont' know them in real life. So who is to say what each scammer is like. You are allowed to say what you think of them yes. But you dont' know them so your showing yourself to be rather foolish making statements about people you dont' know.

So basically your the morality police. You get to say who is a good person and who is not in RL based on how they play. Is podding ok? or are those who pod have personality flaws too? What about ganking?

You don't seem to be able to see the line between a fantasy game and RL. That is a personality flaw my friend.



you are getting there, your "just a game" excuse is the only thing foolish, RL money is involved to play it and you can get scammed loosing plex, thats costs money you know

check all games on this planets there are rules, know why? think about it, you are not allowed to betray in tennis, football, chess nowhere, there are reasons for that, you kids don't understand

scamming damages the game in the long run, do you play with people who betray in tennis? chess?

is scamming needed for a game? if you think so, you do not have a clue about gaming

the scammers are just annyoing and for the long run they just isolate themselves so its not good for them either

but keep on doing what you do and find out for yourself... I'm fine with that.
So only the rules you decide are fine to play with, are the ones CCP should use?

But Eve is dying. Amiright?

BECAUSE OF SCAMS.

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
CCP Falcon
#260 - 2013-07-11 10:10:26 UTC
Khadi Nakrar wrote:
CCP Falcon wrote:
Margin trading is not considered an exploit.

However, if you do run into a legitimate exploit in game, feel free to file a support ticked via the F12 menu in game.

Alternatively, if you dislike margin trading and would like to suggest changes, please feel free to speak to the CSM, or post suggestions for changes in the Features & Ideas Discussion Forum.


You forgot to lock the thread m8


No, I didn't actually. I was hoping that people would be a little more civil.

Sadly, that's not the case, so it's getting locked now.

CCP Falcon || EVE Universe Community Manager || @CCP_Falcon

Happy Birthday To FAWLTY7! <3