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Incursion Tears Start here
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Pitrolo Orti
Doomheim
#1 - 2013-07-10 21:04:50 UTC
Since the Mom is dying faster than usual, I am providing you a comfortable arm and bucket for your tears.

Please post you thoughts about the Mom killings.

Regards

Price is what you pay. Value is what you get.
Clutch G'oldman
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#2 - 2013-07-10 21:11:00 UTC
It’s not new news that eve is mostly about lemmings, and as long as that remains true there will always be a few Charismatic FC’s with their own agenda of Popping moms to feed their overinflated egos, and compensate for their underinflated ...

Moms are fun, Moms are easy, and you know Moms put out.
Centuri
Corporate Scum
#3 - 2013-07-10 21:50:14 UTC
Well, it's a viable tactic, just as contesting is.

I only started incursions 2 days ago, and only started back playing the game after 3+ years. TVP took me in with less than optimal setups and showed me the ropes, and let me earn isk, so i'm gratefull to them for that, but I try to be as unbiased as possible when looking at these events.

From what I have seeing, TVP and DIN have popped moms in the last couple of days, because ISN has been contesting them. ISN will say contesting is just playing the game, but so is mom killing.

The thing about TVP fleets, is that they take in alot of new or returning players (like me), with next to no experience in incursions and with less than optimal setups (t1 ships/gear). They help out the incursion community by doing so, and alot of the pilots when they gear up, will go onto join ISN or other fleets. TVP is the entry point in incursions for alot of players.

What this means, is that when ISN comes in with their full pirate/t2 experience fleet against a TVP fleet, they will, more often than not win a contest. It's not really challenging to ISN, because they are fighting against fleets that have alot less gear and experience. This leads to those fleets (such as TVP and DIN) getting pissed off.

The only thing these fleets can do against ISN fleets is either stop accepting new players and raise the required ship/gear level to the same as ISN, or find other ways to stop contests that are highly one-sided. Thankfully so far TVP hasn't flinched on it's ethos is giving new players a chance, but the downside is they have to look at other ways of stopping or winning contests. I have no connection or relationship to TVP leadership, but i'm guessing this is their view also.

The only course of action these fleets can take to stop one-sided competitions, is to make it painfull for ISN to contest them, and that is being done by killing moms, and it's a perfectly valid tactic. Atm ISN only run at primetime in HQ, so killing the mom in primetime hurts them alot. TVP on the other hand has a 23/7 full HQ fleet. By the time EU primetime comes they have already farmed for most of the day.

While I don't like the mom killing, I think in the long run, it is one of the only courses of action to be taken to stop contests. I personally like contests, even if I lose, but the FCs jobs are to get their members ISK, so taking extreme action like this is one of the only ways to make people think before contesting.

My views are only from the TVP side atm, because I have only flown with them, as I don't have the required gear for ISN. I look forward to flying with ISN in the future, to get their side of it, but in the end conflict is always good, at least it makes the game interesting and makes us not take incursions for granted.
Goldiiee
Bureau of Astronomical Anomalies
#4 - 2013-07-10 22:00:57 UTC
You are right Centuri in most of what you said and how you see it. And of course the other option to deny ISN contest is to not run during their prime time, but that would be really outrageous.

Of course it's not just ISN, there have been so many moms popped lately that it is hard to keep track of who is punching who back in the nose for getting punched in the nose in the first place.

So much drama and childish behaviour going on I can barely will myself to log in and even look at the chats anymore.

Things that keep me up at night;  Why do we use a voice communication device to send telegraphs? Moore's Law should state, Once you have paid off the last PC upgrade you will need another.
Jack Miton
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#5 - 2013-07-10 22:27:44 UTC
Killing moms is the best way to get hilarious tears from people running the easiest and steadiest isk printing press in EVE's history.
What more reason do you need?

There is no Bob.

Stuck In Here With Me:  http://sihwm.blogspot.com.au/

Down the Pipe:  http://feeds.feedburner.com/CloakyScout
Epic Rupture
Trident Holdings
#6 - 2013-07-10 22:30:00 UTC
I still can't understand why people don't realize what game they are playing. Contesting, just like completing the MOM site early, is part of the game. There is just one major difference: contesting stops a small group of people from making isk for that site, and the busier the system, the more likely a contest will occur, where as completing the MOM site (and there by closing the incursion) kills isk making for everyone. If there is another incursion up, fine, just a minor inconvenience. If there isn't, people rage (hilariously).

Losing isk to a superior fleet for one site >>> no isk for the rest of the day (IMO).

BTW, for all those saying ISN are big bullies and pick on inferior "training" fleets: Realize you are doing what many consider to be the best sites in Incursions, and like in the rest of EVE, nothing come free or easy. If you want to make the best money, invest the time, money and energy into making a better fleet and "earn" the right to fly the sites. Vanguard and Assault sites are far better "training" sites that HQs. How about instead of closing Incursion because you can't beat a superior fleet, you downgrade and continue to make isk.
Goldiiee
Bureau of Astronomical Anomalies
#7 - 2013-07-10 22:36:11 UTC
Jack Miton wrote:
Killing moms is the best way to get hilarious tears from people running the easiest and steadiest isk printing press in EVE's history.
What more reason do you need?

Actually half the people crying over killed moms are the same people that killed it a few days earlier. So flip a coin and decide if this week your a whiner/crier or a chest pounder.

Things that keep me up at night;  Why do we use a voice communication device to send telegraphs? Moore's Law should state, Once you have paid off the last PC upgrade you will need another.
Nadia Gallen
Dark-Rising
Wrecking Machine.
#8 - 2013-07-10 22:47:02 UTC
I admit I like some of these suggestions in this thread, and I haven't seen a single rage tear yet.

Epic Rupture got one solid point there, If you can't beat them, joi.. Downgrade your fleets to the better "training" sites.

And Centuri made a nice point of view from a new pilot in the TVP community. I will look forward to when you can fly with ISN, and get to see the other side of the coin, hopefully I might even be able to join you in a fleet, if I find the bloody time. Damn RL.

You see, what TVP did for you, taking you in, learning you the ropes. That is what ISN did for me, I did however have the slight advantage that I came from missioning, so I had trained my laser/beam skills up a bit.
ISN took me in on a trial, found a nice Navy issue Geddon, I even got a sponsor who fronted the isk for me, for the ship, the modules and into the fleet I went. It didn't take me long to pay the guy back.
Now I fly a nightmare, and flying with a hardened and focused fleet, focused on making isk as fast as possible and as much as possible for their members.

TVP DO have fleets up almost 23/7 farming the HQ sites, DIN got a HQ fleet up much of the day, granted it is flown by perhaps 4-6 people at max. ISN have a HQ fleet up 2-3 hours a day (give an take a few).

And since more and more people are getting interested in Incursions, after flying with TVP or simular communities, they break and make their own, which brings more shiny ships into the constellations. So contests are starting to be something the communities really can't avoid.
Yeyra
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#9 - 2013-07-10 22:50:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Yeyra
Centuri wrote:
TVP on the other hand has a 23/7 full HQ fleet. By the time EU primetime comes they have already farmed for most of the day.


You're making it look like as if TVP is a single entity and not a community with a lot of players from a lot of different timezones. By rage popping the MOM, TVP and DIN are screwing their own members over. Sure, it's annoying for ISN but that's it. This tactic didn't work in the past and it won't work now.
Centuri
Corporate Scum
#10 - 2013-07-10 23:00:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Centuri
Epic Rupture wrote:
I still can't understand why people don't realize what game they are playing. Contesting, just like completing the MOM site early, is part of the game. There is just one major difference: contesting stops a small group of people from making isk for that site, and the busier the system, the more likely a contest will occur, where as completing the MOM site (and there by closing the incursion) kills isk making for everyone. If there is another incursion up, fine, just a minor inconvenience. If there isn't, people rage (hilariously).

Losing isk to a superior fleet for one site >>> no isk for the rest of the day (IMO).

BTW, for all those saying ISN are big bullies and pick on inferior "training" fleets: Realize you are doing what many consider to be the best sites in Incursions, and like in the rest of EVE, nothing come free or easy. If you want to make the best money, invest the time, money and energy into making a better fleet and "earn" the right to fly the sites. Vanguard and Assault sites are far better "training" sites that HQs. How about instead of closing Incursion because you can't beat a superior fleet, you downgrade and continue to make isk.


No one has called ISN bullies, their tactics are legit, just that they **** off everyone else.

Your second point doesn't make much sense. You say you need to "earn" your right to do incursions. You're plainly wrong. This is EVE and no one has the "right" to do anything. You get your isk any way you can. Incursions are one of the best ways to earn isk actively, and if a new player can get into one of those fleets, then in my opinion, good on him/her, they have taken the initiative.

In your third point you are saying TVP should downgrade because ISN is a superior fleet. That maybe so, depending on how you define "superior", but ISN gimp themselves daily and are forced to do VG fleets most of the time, because they can't get the numbers with their required gear. That doesn't strike me as very superior. It strikes me as very illogical. You don't need ISN fits to do HQ incursions. TVP proves that everyday.

TVP does incursions everyday with t1 ships, with t1 mods, with non logi 5 logistics with t1 reppers, with players who have never done incursions before. ISN needs pirate ships with t2/faction gear to do incursions, so which is the superior fleet? I'm not trying to create an argument, but just trying to show that there are alot of ways to look at these things, and calling one fleet superior to another, just because they vastly outgear content, is a very narrow view.

I realise that ISN's ethos is that they like to use the best gear, and good on them, but it doesn't make them superior to anyone. They can clear sites faster than any other fleet, but at primetime when there are 3-4 full fleets in a system, it is way overkill, which leads to them trying to contest others.
Centuri
Corporate Scum
#11 - 2013-07-10 23:13:09 UTC
Yeyra wrote:
Centuri wrote:
TVP on the other hand has a 23/7 full HQ fleet. By the time EU primetime comes they have already farmed for most of the day.


You're making it look like as if TVP is a single entity and not a community with a lot of players from a lot of different timezones. By rage popping the MOM, TVP and DIN are screwing their own members over. Sure, it's annoying for ISN but that's it. This tactic didn't work in the past and it won't work now.


Yeah, I agree with you somewhat on your point about communities. Each community has different timezones with people playing only in their own primetime etc, and because all the mom killing is happening in EU timezone, it hurts EU and US players alot.

I disagree though that mom killing won't necessarily work. If I was in an ISN fleet contesting other fleets, and I knew that anytime we contested them, they would pop the mom, then it would at least cross my mind, that it would be better just not to contest, and forego the slightly more isk/hr in doing so, if it means that all incursions would stop.

On the flip side, if I was in an ISN fleet, and we were contesting everything and winning, and the other fleets did nothing and didn't kill the mom, then I would want to just keep contesting and getting insane isk/hr, because there would be no incentive/penalisation for contesting.
Epic Rupture
Trident Holdings
#12 - 2013-07-10 23:22:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Epic Rupture
Centuri wrote:


Your second point doesn't make much sense. You say you need to "earn" your right to do incursions. You're plainly wrong. This is EVE and no one has the "right" to do anything. You get your isk any way you can. Incursions are one of the best ways to earn isk actively, and if a new player can get into one of those fleets, then in my opinion, good on him/her, they have taken the initiative.



You may have misunderstood me. It was in quotes because I was being sarcastic. Of course no one has the right to tell you what you can and can't do. I was speaking specifically to Headquarter sites as well. As they are the hardest site in Incursions, they are hardly a good place for training fleets, but since TVP and other "training" communities want to make the best isk possible, they take that risk. When ISN forms for a HQ fleet, they (we, this is an alt as I cant be bothered to log my main) do it right, with the right ships and gear. This is not to say ISN never takes on new people, it is just preferred said new people learn the ropes in a VG or ASS site before joining an HQ fleet.

ISN, as you will soon learn, also LOVES contesting. It keeps the grind from becoming too "grindy". So advising a fleet to downgrade is against my own wishes (less fleets = less contests = less isk per hour), but less isk/hr is better than no isk/hr.


Edit: Somewhat unrelated, but why does no one complain about ICU contesting and harassing in VG sites? They actually go after people and purposefully shut inferior fleets down (for ISN, its more targets of opportunity despite what DIN will try to make you believe), yet the only communities that complain are the ones who lose contests in HQ sites.

Just something I find interesting.
Goldiiee
Bureau of Astronomical Anomalies
#13 - 2013-07-10 23:48:51 UTC
The members in an ISN fleet are for lack of a better term ‘professional Incursion runners’ they expect to make a half a billion in a fleet, then they log into their alts and go kill some ships in Nul/low or set up the manufacture of a T2 BPO or whatever other project they had in mind. An ISN member doesn’t sit around waiting for a fleet cause he/she knows when the fleet is going up and will be ready at that time.

So when the Mom gets popped the rule is, move to tomorrow’s incursion and go play EVE online. Or have you all forgotten it’s called EVE online not Incursions Online.

Things that keep me up at night;  Why do we use a voice communication device to send telegraphs? Moore's Law should state, Once you have paid off the last PC upgrade you will need another.
The Djego
Hellequin Inc.
#14 - 2013-07-11 00:58:35 UTC  |  Edited by: The Djego
Epic Rupture wrote:
Edit: Somewhat unrelated, but why does no one complain about ICU contesting and harassing in VG sites? They actually go after people and purposefully shut inferior fleets down (for ISN, its more targets of opportunity despite what DIN will try to make you believe), yet the only communities that complain are the ones who lose contests in HQ sites.


Because they mostly do it to armor and nobody here cares much(we get a bit of applause any time we slap them in the face when we got a full max dps paladin fleet up and running). They are also just set up for contesting(super heavy on the dps often 11+ dps ships), stand mostly stand still outside of contesting(we played the waiting game a lot with them) and are probably on the lower end of ISK/h(if they run her contest setup), so I don't hate them, I just think they are annoying and I can't really think of a serious reason why people fly in her fleets. What Ludus did was awesome because he did beat bling shield with pickup armor fleets by clever FCing and having lots of skilled regulars that could fill key roles and keep the fleet running, what ICU does is mostly beating up pickup fleets with super bling setups and bringing more dps ships.

I for myself just run armor grind mode, and we beat enough IS boxer and bling shield fleets with that setup, so I don't care. Bear

Improve discharge rigging: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=246166&find=unread
Tasha Saisima
Doomheim
#15 - 2013-07-11 03:47:24 UTC
If I was with a community and it's leaders told us "sorry guys, we are killing the mom in the only hi-sec incursion because ISN is contesting and we can't beat them" then I would quickly get out. That tells me, A, this community sucks and B, this community is childish. Thats basically, "im taking my ball and going home."

lol
CanI haveyourstuff
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#16 - 2013-07-11 04:24:27 UTC  |  Edited by: CanI haveyourstuff
Tasha Saisima wrote:
If I was with a community and it's leaders told us "sorry guys, we are killing the mom in the only hi-sec incursion because ISN is contesting and we can't beat them" then I would quickly get out. That tells me, A, this community sucks and B, this community is childish. Thats basically, "im taking my ball and going home."

lol


Well.. believe it or not but killing mom is just as contesting as contesting sites.

TVP chat has been full of moan from ISN and whoever about mom killing so I think that TVP achieved what they wanted and will do so in future.


Nothing childish here imo... just simple mind/tactics game, politics.


At least you would moan, right? then you have option... join up with someone who contests and make no incursions in about 30 minutes or dont be that **** who steals ball from kids and continue your incursions.

Point understood?
Cipher Jones
The Thomas Edwards Taco Tuesday All Stars
#17 - 2013-07-11 05:15:47 UTC
There's currently 2 hisec incursions. One of them is not being run at all.

The only current IMBA in incursionland is the broken wardec system.

internet spaceships

are serious business sir.

and don't forget it
CanI haveyourstuff
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#18 - 2013-07-11 05:48:46 UTC
Cipher Jones wrote:
There's currently 2 hisec incursions. One of them is not being run at all.

The only current IMBA in incursionland is the broken wardec system.



Dunno if wardec system is broken or just game mechanics... how would you fix it then?
Tobias Hareka
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#19 - 2013-07-11 07:58:37 UTC
Tasha Saisima wrote:
If I was with a community and it's leaders told us "sorry guys, we are killing the mom in the only hi-sec incursion because ISN is contesting and we can't beat them" then I would quickly get out. That tells me, A, this community sucks and B, this community is childish. Thats basically, "im taking my ball and going home."

lol


Why should other players allow you to print risk free isk?
Charadrass
Angry Germans
#20 - 2013-07-11 08:57:32 UTC
tears, delicious tears. :)
gimme moar moar moar .
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