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Intergalactic Summit

 
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You mess with the best, you die like the rest.

Author
Stitcher
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#121 - 2013-07-10 12:41:27 UTC
Veikitamo Gesakaarin wrote:
Feel free to tell me where I have ever passed the buck of responsibility and leadership, because:

When given the option at the time of quiet acquiescence to the CPD when they violated the laws of the CBT in the Intara Affair, I did not remain silent but instead chose to denounce what I rightfully saw as the overstepping of bounds by former Executor and Kaalakiota CEO Heth-guri. Even though I knew as a Kaalakiota citizen, and CEO of a Kaalakiota affiliate the personal and professional consequences such a public denouncement might entail. Did I pass the buck due to lack of backbone then?

When the workers of Kaalakiota decided to speak out against former CEO Heth-guri, I condoned, authorized and supported the firing upon Home Guard assets in order to defend their lives against those who when placed in the difficult and unenviable position of either prosecuting their orders and failing to protect their fellow citizens or following the dictates of their conscience and being damned for it still chose to fire upon unarmed Kaalakiota citizens. I then provided support and protection as an SCC registered entity to those who survived and fell under my care while also providing the same support and reparations to the families of the Home Guard servicemen who died due to my decisions. Did I pass the back due to lack of backbone then?

Do I currently pass the buck today due to lack of backbone when I, even when granted the freedoms of my position as capsuleer choose of my own volition to undertake armed conflict in the name of the State? I do not feel I have ever been remiss in my convictions, my duty and my obligations to my State, my Parent Company, my Corporation or my comrades and my employees whether it is in the Boardroom or on the Frontlines either as Executive or Commander. I certainly don't need advice on corporate or military leadership from a distinguished essayist like yourself.


Good. This is the attitude of a CEO.

THIS:

Veikitamo Gesakaarin wrote:
since the CEP is the only legal authority to negotiate war or peace in the interests of the State as they deem fit then it's not my job as a soldier to go and be, "lending my voice for the conflict's cessation," or, "Be calling for peace the loudest," since according to my Org Chart it's still the CEP that has that power to decide - not any one person in uniform, and certainly not any "cultural ambassadors" such as yourself living as expatriate in the Republic.


Is not.

You are a freelance corporate leader, Gesakaarin-haanas ((AUTOTORANS: literally "more citizen". An expression of deference and respect.)) You have not received direct marching orders from the CEP, you have received an open invitation, with incentives. If the CEP gave me a direct order to join the militia - I am confident they will not, but if they did - then I would obey that order, while still voicing my respectful dissent for the conflict itself. As I said, the service is vital, but the war itself is not.

What I want to know is why you chose to accept that open invitation. It being possible to serve the State without being a part of the militia, I wish to know the reason why you chose that particular service over any other.

"That is none of your business" is an acceptable response, by the way. I am not a shareholder in your corporation, I have no right to know, I simply desire understanding.

But:

The war is a wasted effort. Those deaths are pointless. If you are offended by that fact, then that is good, because you should be. We should all be offended when State citizens are squandered on a war without purpose. Do not be angry at me for identifying that prodigality, be angry at the extravagance itself.

AKA Hambone

Author of The Deathworlders

Desiderya
Blue Canary
Watch This
#122 - 2013-07-10 13:37:39 UTC
We disagree about the necessity, then. We could easily ditch Black Rise without threatening a collapse of the State - but why should we?
Until this war is resolved we're taking up arms against our sworn enemies, for this threat is a harsh reality and would be more obvious if you'd spend more time on the frontier. This is sovereign territory we're talking about after all. You can question the CEP's - and the Senate's - motivation for continueing this type of conflict, but do not question those who are fighting it. I don't know where you've served, but I am pretty sure that complaining to your superior officer about a task being 'a waste' would've not met with approval. You get your orders, and you'll work your best to fulfill them within the given parameters. And don't get tempted too hard to construct a hypothetical cause for rebellion along the 'think of the children'-line of arguments.

Neither I, personally, nor we as a unit will win or lose that war single-handedly. We're, however, capable of having some local impact. If we leave, these locals - alongside the operational capabilities of the megacorporations owning the infrastructure - will have it worse than they do now. Furthermore, our presence allows some general peacekeeping activities that go beyond what local law enforcement can handle. Plenty of reason, no?

Ruthlessness is the kindness of the wise.

Stitcher
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#123 - 2013-07-10 13:49:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Stitcher
Quote:
I don't know where you've served, but I am pretty sure that complaining to your superior officer about a task being 'a waste' would've not met with approval. You get your orders, and you'll work your best to fulfill them within the given parameters. And don't get tempted too hard to construct a hypothetical cause for rebellion along the 'think of the children'-line of arguments.


As a member of the corporation, you get your orders from Gesakaarin-haani, and you follow them. I respect that. But where is she getting her orders from? The CEP aren't ordering corporations and pilots into fight. Militia service is not mandatory, it's a volunteer force (and largely a mercenary one).

I'm asking why your corporation is CHOOSING the militia. I respect following orders, but you are NOT following orders, because no orders have been given. It's no good telling me to ask the CEP why you're fighting when they haven't actually ordered you to. They've just created the opportunity and you've seized it.

I have nothing but sympathy and respect for those corporate citizens and colonists who are caught up in this because they genuinely were following real orders from their superiors, but don't pretend you're in the same boat as them, you're not. You are choosing to stay in your corp, which is choosing to do this. You are an entirely valid target for criticism in that regard.

AKA Hambone

Author of The Deathworlders

Veikitamo Gesakaarin
Doomheim
#124 - 2013-07-10 13:49:16 UTC
Stitcher wrote:

What I want to know is why you chose to accept that open invitation. It being possible to serve the State without being a part of the militia, I wish to know the reason why you chose that particular service over any other.

"That is none of your business" is an acceptable response, by the way. I am not a shareholder in your corporation, I have no right to know, I simply desire understanding.

But:

The war is a wasted effort. Those deaths are pointless. If you are offended by that fact, then that is good, because you should be. We should all be offended when State citizens are squandered on a war without purpose. Do not be angry at me for identifying that prodigality, be angry at the extravagance itself.


I fight this war because to me the price of not fighting it is cost I am unwilling to bear as a citizen in a position to do something about it. Not only because the Fourth District of Black Rise is of vital strategic importance to Kaalakiota. Nor is it because I believe my fellow citizens should spend one day under foreign dominion by Federal occupation troops who as drug addled conscripts barely rank above the basest of thugs and who partake in scorched earth campaigns that destroy the lives and livelihoods of those that live in the colonies caught in the CEWPA warzone.

It is because I cannot trust the motivations of a robber baron of a Federal President such as Roden who was elected to office with the most dubious of legitimacy and whom, as a man who made his fortunes as a merchant of death has a vested interest as far as I can see in continuing a war in order to secure his domestic powerbase and the necessity of strengthening the Federal military-industrial complex. Nor can I trust a man such as Mentas Blaque who has always advocated policies of military and economic containment against the Caldari State who has currently been entrusted with command of a secret police force in the SDII whose capabilities the CPD could only have hoped to achieve in their wildest dreams and whom given the nature of the man who commands them are no doubt rooted in the same sort of virulent nationalism as the Templis Dragonaurs or Duvailer.

So I suffer through what you may think is a pointless war that is no such thing for me. For it is only here on the front-lines of the current conflict that not only can I defend my fellow citizens and Kaalakiota but also seek to exert my own political visions of a future where my sons will not have to fight the same war I am fighting and that in order to ensure that necessary peace then so must I apply calculated violence against men and women such as Roden and Blaque just as much as I must apply it to men and women like Heth-guri and those who followed him in the CPD and the Templis Dragonaurs.

Such a peace is not possible only with words, but also with decisive action both politically and militarily into the future.

Kurilaivonen|Concern

Stitcher
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#125 - 2013-07-10 13:53:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Stitcher
Were he a megacorporate CEO, Jacus Roden would be considered a perfectly legitimate authority who won his rank on cunning, ruthless efficiency and sharp business acumen. But because he's the owner and former CEO of a Gallentean corporation he's a robber baron and a scoundrel? The man took his business from a machine shop in a back alley in a poor district on some backwater planet's backwater city, and built it up into one of the wealthiest and most powerful corporations in New Eden. What could be more Meritocratic?

I had no idea you were so enamoured of the Federation's definitions of legitimacy and corruption.

But there we go. You perceive a threat, and you are acting to oppose it. I respect that.

I disagree with you on the severity of that threat, and on the degree to which the other side can be negotiated with - Ishukone has, I think, adequately demonstrated that elements within the Federation are entirely open to compromise - but I cannot fault your motives.

AKA Hambone

Author of The Deathworlders

Desiderya
Blue Canary
Watch This
#126 - 2013-07-10 14:14:15 UTC
We get our orders from higher up as well. While there's some liberty in what contracts to take or not it's not endless.

Besides, we have disagreed on the severity of that threat a while ago. Why are we still discussing it? We've also covered that we'd better enlist in the TLF to fight 'the biggest threat to the cluster' at some point.

Ruthlessness is the kindness of the wise.

Veikitamo Gesakaarin
Doomheim
#127 - 2013-07-10 14:15:31 UTC
Stitcher wrote:
Were he a megacorporate CEO, Jacus Roden would be considered a perfectly legitimate authority who won his rank on cunning, ruthless efficiency and sharp business acumen. But because he's the owner and former CEO of a Gallentean corporation he's a robber baron and a scoundrel? The man took his business from a machine shop in a back alley in a poor district on some backwater planet's backwater city, and built it up into one of the wealthiest and most powerful corporations in New Eden. What could be more Meritocratic?

I had no idea you were so enamoured of the Federation's definitions of legitimacy and corruption.

But there we go. You perceive a threat, and you are acting to oppose it. I respect that.

I disagree with you on the severity of that threat, and on the degree to which the other side can be negotiated with - Ishukone has, I think, adequately demonstrated that elements within the Federation are entirely open to compromise - but I cannot fault your motives.


War to me is always a negotiation through violence due to fundamental conflicts of interests. In this I find the interests of President Roden and SDII Director Mentas Blaque as being inimical to those of that I seek to defend. I thus would prefer it if such negotiations are conducted from a position of strength with clear goals in mind and not on my knees with weeping histrionics.

Perhaps we just have different negotiating tactics since you were trained with Ishukone and I with Sukuuvestaa and Kaalakiota.

Kurilaivonen|Concern

Stitcher
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#128 - 2013-07-10 14:21:27 UTC
Indeed. They apparently neglected to educate you on the difference between diplomacy and begging.

AKA Hambone

Author of The Deathworlders

Veikitamo Gesakaarin
Doomheim
#129 - 2013-07-10 14:34:51 UTC
Stitcher wrote:
Indeed. They apparently neglected to educate you on the difference between diplomacy and begging.


There isn't a difference.

Kurilaivonen|Concern

Stitcher
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#130 - 2013-07-10 14:38:02 UTC
I rest my case.

AKA Hambone

Author of The Deathworlders

Diana Kim
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#131 - 2013-07-10 16:30:52 UTC
Steffanie Saissore wrote:

I am not even going to bother with the response I had been working on, because in the end, you are stubborn, pig-headed, and willfully blind.

Thank you for showing us your real gallentean face once again.
I hope now everyone here understands, why I have such attitude towards gallenteans.
Someday, Ms. Saissore, we will meet in person, and, I assure you, we will have something to "speak" about.

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.

Diana Kim
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#132 - 2013-07-10 17:09:56 UTC
Stitcher wrote:
Quote:
I don't know where you've served, but I am pretty sure that complaining to your superior officer about a task being 'a waste' would've not met with approval. You get your orders, and you'll work your best to fulfill them within the given parameters. And don't get tempted too hard to construct a hypothetical cause for rebellion along the 'think of the children'-line of arguments.


As a member of the corporation, you get your orders from Gesakaarin-haani, and you follow them. I respect that. But where is she getting her orders from? The CEP aren't ordering corporations and pilots into fight. Militia service is not mandatory, it's a volunteer force (and largely a mercenary one).

I'm asking why your corporation is CHOOSING the militia. I respect following orders, but you are NOT following orders, because no orders have been given. It's no good telling me to ask the CEP why you're fighting when they haven't actually ordered you to. They've just created the opportunity and you've seized it.

I have nothing but sympathy and respect for those corporate citizens and colonists who are caught up in this because they genuinely were following real orders from their superiors, but don't pretend you're in the same boat as them, you're not. You are choosing to stay in your corp, which is choosing to do this. You are an entirely valid target for criticism in that regard.

The problem is, that it is only the militia now who does the real fighting, so if you want to serve your duty to the State, you have to join the militia.

Unfortunately, the Navy does not participate in the conflict on large scale. Of course, I would prefer for the Navy to launch full scale assault on the federal space with militia as support forces. But it is the militia who have to do the war instead.

The current situation does not place the State in the good position: the most fearsome and professional Navy in our cluster gets dusty in docks, while majority of capsuleers of Caldari origin are traitors, dissidents, outlaws, gallente-lovers or other type of scum that are afraid to fight the war or even more - want US to stop fighting to give gallenteans upper hand.

This makes me think that the whole capsuleer program was a mistake: you cannot put a capsuleer to a firing squad if said capsuleer will join gallentean forces instead. We need much stronger control and monitoring. At first, capsuleer program was only for military use in the State, and I am really sorry to see what has it become. If the State would assume control over capsuleers, it would be a huge step towards the Victory !

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.

Katrina Oniseki
Oniseki-Raata Internal Watch
Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
#133 - 2013-07-10 17:46:37 UTC
Perhaps we ought to stop questioning the methods our kirjuun serve the State.

After reading the past seven pages, I must admit that I have shamefully contributed to a systemic cancer of mistrust that has grown between our people in the last five years. Instead of cheering on the forces who serve with distinction and merit in the State Protectorate, I have attacked them for various ideological reasons. At first I fancied myself simply returning the favor for being attacked on our business in Syndicate, but I realize that this tit-for-tat mud slinging has done nothing but weaken the bonds that could have so powerfully unified Ishukone-loyalists and others.

I apologize for my part played in this shameful series of outbursts. It is not the place of us to be so loudly and publicly attacking our kin for the entertainment of outsiders and humiliation of our business rivals. The men and women of the State Protectorate, Civ Kado included, deserve at least our quiet respect. If we really cannot bring ourselves to agree with their methods of service... well perhaps we can at least retain the dignity of silence.

Katrina Oniseki

Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#134 - 2013-07-10 17:49:06 UTC
Katrina Oniseki wrote:
Perhaps we ought to stop questioning the methods our kirjuun serve the State.

After reading the past seven pages, I must admit that I have shamefully contributed to a systemic cancer of mistrust that has grown between our people in the last five years. Instead of cheering on the forces who serve with distinction and merit in the State Protectorate, I have attacked them for various ideological reasons. At first I fancied myself simply returning the favor for being attacked on our business in Syndicate, but I realize that this tit-for-tat mud slinging has done nothing but weaken the bonds that could have so powerfully unified Ishukone-loyalists and others.

I apologize for my part played in this shameful series of outbursts. It is not the place of us to be so loudly and publicly attacking our kin for the entertainment of outsiders and humiliation of our business rivals. The men and women of the State Protectorate, Civ Kado included, deserve at least our quiet respect. If we really cannot bring ourselves to agree with their methods of service... well perhaps we can at least retain the dignity of silence.



I would like to see more of THIS, kirjuunet and less of what I've been reading. It's shameful that dedicated State Loyalists should feel that they have to defend themselves like this, in public, from those who should be their allies.

I'd like to see a lot more solidarity between so-called State Loyalists.

My thanks to Admiral Oniseki-haani for opting to be the first to take the high road.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.

Makoto Priano
Kirkinen-Arataka Transhuman Zenith Consulting Ltd.
Arataka Research Consortium
#135 - 2013-07-10 18:13:44 UTC
We may differ on how we wish to achieve it and what it means, but we all strive to serve the State.

I would stand with Oniseki-Charantes-kirjuun and Tuulinen-haan.

Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries: exploring the edge of the known, advancing the state of the art. Would you like to know more?

Steffanie Saissore
Tyrathlion Interstellar
#136 - 2013-07-10 18:19:34 UTC
Diana Kim wrote:
Steffanie Saissore wrote:

I am not even going to bother with the response I had been working on, because in the end, you are stubborn, pig-headed, and willfully blind.

Thank you for showing us your real gallentean face once again.
I hope now everyone here understands, why I have such attitude towards gallenteans.
Someday, Ms. Saissore, we will meet in person, and, I assure you, we will have something to "speak" about.


Again, you fail to see anything beyond your nose.

I treated you with respect for two whole months while you slung mud in my face and telling me how much you'll enjoy killing every single Gallente that you could.

If you really want at me Kim, you can find me easily enough since I have lately been handling missions for the Caldari Navy in and around the system of New Caldari. Seems there's been a rise in pirate activity as of late. Not sure how the Navy would take to you firing upon a duly contracted worker though.

But, you continue to prove my point. You are nothing but a bully, a bigot, and a blowhard.

We travel in the dark of the new moon,

A starry highway traced on the map of the sky

Stitcher
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#137 - 2013-07-10 22:25:22 UTC
The issue is this, Oniseki-haani: If we perceive a flaw, are we duty-bound to address it, or to leave well enough alone?

Gesakaarin-haani has expressed the sentiment that it is not the place of a soldier to question orders, and in principle I agree. Questioning orders gets people killed, fights lost and objectives failed. On that point, there is consensus.

But is a soldier not allowed to question the need for the war in which they are embroiled? Nobody else, after all, is better qualified to have an opinion on the subject than those who are - or have been - directly involved. So long as your dissent for the conflict doesn't extend to shirking your responsibilities, there's nothing wrong with acknowledging when a conflict has ceased to be for any good cause.

I see no incompatibility between serving the State through force of arms, and serving it through force of voice. The two are perfectly capable of being done concurrently and indeed should be. Overtures of peace are not incompatible with continuing to fight, otherwise ceasefires would never, ever have happened ever in the history of human civilisation.

The reason this is important is that I perceive in my kirjuunen a flaw, a dangerous one. I see what looks very much like the intellectual equivalent of relying too heavily on strength in a fight and disdaining subtlety. I know how that ends: it ends with the hand-to-hand instructor leaving a hulking loadjack twice their weight flat on their back and stunned on the training mat.

With the greatest respect, while I am full aware that questioning your comrades' methods is potentially dangerous and divisive, it is equally potentially constructive and positive. Doing it in public equally has its dangers and benefits - one the one hand, we risk not presenting a united front, on the other we educate others that we're not all like Kim-haanitsa.

If I have fallen on the wrong side of that thin line, then I apologize and ask for Pyre Falcon's forgiveness.

AKA Hambone

Author of The Deathworlders

Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#138 - 2013-07-10 22:51:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Pieter Tuulinen
I find it telling that the State Protectorate wasn't wound up at the same time as the CPD. It seems that the CEP has some need, still, for the milita and the war we fight.

If anything it's even more legitimised now that Heth and his lackeys are no longer a part of it.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.

Stitcher
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#139 - 2013-07-10 23:00:46 UTC
well, unlike the CPD and the Dragonaurs, the militia involves a foreign power who would have to agree to similarly dismantle their own militia. That's a process that probably won't happen overnight.

Dissolving the CPD may be one of the stepping-stones to that end. We shall see.

AKA Hambone

Author of The Deathworlders

Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#140 - 2013-07-10 23:06:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Pieter Tuulinen
Stitcher wrote:
well, unlike the CPD and the Dragonaurs, the militia involves a foreign power who would have to agree to similarly dismantle their own militia. That's a process that probably won't happen overnight.

Dissolving the CPD may be one of the stepping-stones to that end. We shall see.


That would be a welcome development. Of course I, personally, would like to see the disbanding of the Black Eagles as part of a peace settlement. We've named and shamed our paramilitary terrorists. Theirs are still on the Federal payroll.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.