Player Features and Ideas Discussion

I know you were not replying to me directly, but you did imply in your post that I am an arrogant noob. Why not call me a carebear, or is that term overused? If I wanted a private playground I would go play MineCraft or Descent. As for your explanation of the mechanics and/or implications of implementing my suggested changes I am still waiting. It looks like you can bad mouth me, and people like me without actually trying to bring us around to your point of view. I did my best to continue and allow all the current practices in the game, short of going afk for 12 hours in a system while cloaked. I even allow for people to go afk in a system cloaked as long as they dock or visit a pos every one hour (or as I have said multiple times in my replies I'm all for two hours or four hours). Just not for more than that amount of time. Even if they do not visit a pos or station even hour, they still can stay cloaked for up to ten hours, and it puts the burden on the others in the system to take the initiative to train the skills so they can scan them down sooner than ten hours. Every mechanic is still there except the 12 hour afk while cloaked. Bring me around to your point of view; I am not above changing my mind on things.



Two responses to the same thread without a counter response... Has your day been that slow for you? Your second post however adds little to the conversation. It might even counter your first post a little, but that does not matter. People do go around with blinders on, that is how hotdroppers get so many kills. Yes some are truly caught slacking and should know better, but some are also caught and taught a lesson because they did not know to look at local. That may be a counter as well to the local chat issue. So many people have been taught this lesson, and it now makes it harder for hotdroppers to kill people.



Nothing is ever cut and dry, or just plain simple is it? You are right, and even though I had read multiple possible solutions to AFK cloaking, I had not tied it to local chat until Tchulen pointed it out to me. I have spent a lot of time in WHs, though I never choose to move there. I understand the need to strategize if local chat did not exist. Intel would also take on a whole new level, as actual reports of pilot movements would have to be done by dedicated gate campers or rather gate watchers. This would be a big change were it to come about.

I mean in general I have no problem watching dscan for hostile ships while mining or ratting. I spent the first month of the game mining in WHs with my venture to earn isk, and I used that tactic often. Yes cloaked ships did sneak up on me and kill my venture more than once, but in the end the risk and loss were minimal compared to the benefit. Removing local chat in nullsec adds more to it. You cannot hotdrop in a WH. If you are watching you will see the non-cloakable ships coming and can avoid them. Some of my initial thoughts on removing local chat would be the ability to see cloaked ships on dscan, but not be able to tell their direction or even if they are cloaked right on top of you. That might however defeat the purpose of a directional scan, and the more I think about be an overall bad idea. I mean this whole aspect of adding local chat to the mix of afk cloaking adds so many levels that I have not fully thought through or vetted with my friends.

Back to your comments though. You claim local chat is a free intel tool. Well frankly so are coalition intel channels. You still have to watch them for them to be effective. I know some new people do not know that, and I have seen several caught by hotdroppers because they were not using that free tool. In general I see how they are tied together, but on the other hand you are not audibly alerted when someone enters system like you are when shields/armour is low. Local chat is not an instant alert if you are not paying attention. I do not know how much ratting you have done, but after an hour or so you mind wonders. This is where the cooperation with your friends comes into play. By ratting or mining with multiple people one of you will likely see the hostile and report it, so the mind can wonder a little. It may be a free intel tool, but easy is another story.

There is so much here to think upon...



No need to apologize here. If anything I should be apologizing for not getting my initial post down to one post or 6000 characters. You have given me a lot to think about, and probably added more to this post then any one pilot so far.

The only 'people' truly effected by AFK Cloakers are Botters.

By complaining about AFK Cloaking, OP has admitted to botting.

CCP, please investigate all accounts owned by the OP for botting behaviors, and apply banhammer as necessary.




Also just to reiterate past statements on the subject, AFK Cloakers cannot hurt you. They are cloaked (which does not allow any offensive or defensive module to be used, or even allow the person to target someone) and AFK (away from the keyboard, physically unable to issue commands to the computer at all, in fact, not paying attention to the screen at all.)

What people commonly confuse with AFK Cloakers, are Cloaked players who are active. These active people are AT their keyboard and are actively hunting. When a cloaked person decloaks and kills you, he was not in fact AFK...or for that matter...cloaked. There are some people who have a cloaked alt in a system, probably at a tactical on grid to a gate, who is watching local and watching gate traffic looking for targets. Those people are NOT AFK either, simply cloaked.

AFK cloakers are an acceptable counter to botters. Bots see a person in local and immeadiatly run to POS and log off, or run and dock up. As long as the person stays in local, the bots cannot bot. What does this do in the long run? If the botter wants to continue to rake in all that ISK while hes at work, he needs to either be at his comp to attend to his illegal flock, or simply program in an exception for that cloaked player. This is where is gets fun. Now that its clear that the bots are ignoring the cloaker, the cloakers is now free to move int he system and make bookmarks and observe the bots. when a properly juicy morsel arrives (read as Orca and hulks, or that stupidly unPOSd Rorqual) the no longer AFK cloaker is now a cloaked hunter and proceeds to uncloak, point the tasty tidbit, and maybe even light cyno for his friends to come join him.

What do AFK cloakers also do well you may ask? Inspire fear of the unknown. Is he active? Is he AFK? Isa scared! Better not undock! This is effective in deep sov systems where the crybaby nullbears like to quietly park their juicy carriers and faction ships in anoms and rake in ISK in relative safety. Now, instead of sitting back and watching a movie and looking at the screen every 10 minutes, they have to stay aligned and be active to avoid that potentially nasty surprise. Make you sit there and actually earn that ISK. "Wait, im in highsec, im not a nullbear!" Wardec time, and I wanna mine and mission!!!! This is where the fear factor is useful, as you can park a blinky alt in system and shut down an entire corp out of fear alone. (BTW, if you park an AFK cloaked alt in system, look at the local chat logs, you will laugh over all the rumprage you are causing simply by showing up in local.

So, in closing, main bullet points to take away from this are:
AFK - Away from keyboard.
Cloaked - Unable to do anything to anyone.
Combine those 2, and well you can see the point.


Then again, its not AFK cloaking that is the 'problem' now is it? It seems that local is the 'problem', right?

Think about if local was delayed like wormholes. No one would even know the AFK cloaker was there, so there would be no need for that AFK cloaker anymore. But wait...now you don't feel safe because ANYONE could be in system! Tha AFK cloaker fear has now been replaced by fear no free intel. Osa lordy, nowsa whats we gonna do! Play the game...that's what youre gonna do... actually be forced to PLAY the game.

So lets be honest, the whole reason behind these AFK cloaking threads,is not that you want AFK cloaking nerfed, its not that you want local delayed, its that you want to sit back and rake in ISK in relative safety no matter where you are. You want to recline and watch Netflix and tab over once in a while and see how your farming is doing, but you don't want to say that, you don't want to say that you want to play the game, but not play the game. You want all the benefits with none of the risks. That would seem selfish to say all that, so instead you need some to vilify something, and that commonly chosen something is AFK Cloaking.

This is not really about safety. If it was I would suggest probes that scan cloaked ships like combat probes, and nothing else. The complexity of my suggestion adds risk. Explorers risk losing their ship while trying to scan down cloaked ships. Cloaked ships can risk being scanned down by staying space too long. Even if an explorer successfully scans down the cloaked ship it can warp away or be constantly moving to avoid being decloaked by the explorer warping to them. Make it so the explorer cannot attack with the ship he uses to scan the cloaky down, and you add the aspect of needing help to kill what you find. The only thing I really am suggesting putting a stop to is sitting afk while cloak. If the cloaked person is at the computer everything I have suggested can be easily countered. I don't want this to be an easy process.



I personally am not scared of the afk cloaker. If I don't want to risk my ship I leave system. If the risk is worth the reward of risking my ship I will stay in the system with the cloaker. I do however want the afk cloaker to work to shut a system down of PVE activity. Going in a system, hitting the cloak button, and going afk is too easy. I cannot go to a combat site, turn my lasers or guns on and go afk. I cannot go to an asteroid belt turns my mining lasers on and go afk. I cannot lock down a hostile ship in a hostile fleet, turn on my lasers/guns on and go afk. That is why I say there needs to be a change to the afk cloaking tactic. It is too easy of a way for a single pilot to effectively shut down a system. I want them to work at it, if they so choose to do so. I do not want this tactic removed from the game I just want the afk cloakers to have to actually do something, or get caught and die.



Again this post adds nothing to the conversation. It even puts words in my mouth I did not say. Thanks for the post, but please think about what you are doing before you hit that Post button.

By creating a vulnerability to cloaked vessels, and no corresponding counter balance to the PvE ships associated with this issue, you are shifting balance to favor those PvE ships.

You are already specifying that explorer ships are to be risked, not ratting ships or mining vessels. Those PvE assets will apparently retain their combat immunity in it's current form.

Do you see it now?

I feel as though it added some much needed clarity and honesty to an otherwise verbose, murky thread.

Allanon Bremen, you have tried hard to present a good case for something that is a legitimate problem, especially in nullsec. I don't agree with your proposed solution, although I think it has merit. I do think the problem needs to be clearly stated in order for us to start thinking about a solution. To that end...

Nullsec should be dangerous. This danger should apply to everyone in order to justify the rewards of living in such space. Much of the objection I have seen to your idea here is from PVPers that favor the cloaky AFK concept, saying that it's your fault for being unable to cope with the risk the cloaky ship represents. However, they seem to completely ignore the fact that the risk is entirely one-sided: the cloaked player is risking nothing. Unless they jump on top of someone and uncloak, they are able to reside in a system indefinitely. Scenarios like that are counter-intuitive to good game design. The potential reward of that hot-drop for the cloaky player should also be accompanied by the risk of discovery beforehand.

So to my mind, the problem is this: cloaking in hostile systems should carry more risk than it currently does.

Part of the issue here, brought up by other players, is that local provides intel on who is in a system, which favors the PVE-ers because they can dock up and play safe once they see a neut or hostile in system. While this is correct, the idea that players need to dock up in their sovereign systems upon spotting a cloaked player in local undermines the very concept of sovereignty. No, sovereign systems shouldn't be hypersafe carebear playgrounds. However, a single cloaked player represents a much larger threat than his single ship. Because of the possible covert cyno, that player is in effect a random fleet, of an indeterminable size, ready to drop on anyone in space at any moment. With NO RISK to himself, he is able to disrupt an entire system...all while AFK making dinner or playing on alts. This is BS, and I think most of us know this.

Something needs to be possible to actively dissuade the cloaky camper and expose him...making the risks of his craft match the potential rewards. So here are a few suggestions I have:

- Cloaking could require an isotope fuel, stored in a special bay perhaps, which would be depleted so long as a pilot is cloaked and would eventually necessitate the pilot resupplying and ending the cloaky camp.
- Scanners could be given tools to scan down cloaked ships, or to force decloaks, if they are highly skilled and actively working on the task. Allow for a scandown to the grid, without knowing the exact location. Then give us an way to decloak them if we are on grid with them: if the cloaked player is active, they will spot the decloak and reactivate, or warp away. But if you are just sitting there AFK? Prepare to die.
- Something akin to a cyno jammer could be employed which affects cloaking, on the same principle as above: if a player is not AFK they can easily recloak and resume stealthy activity. But AFK players would be decloaked and vulnerable until they return to their keyboards.
- Or hey, just remove auto-cycling on the covert ops cloak. If you're nto there to move around and click it, you decloak.

Anyway, I do hope we can eventually solve this problem. I want more actual fights, and the current "meta" of EVE in nullsec is basically the equivalent of tri-boxing players in AFK cloaky ships warping in on PVEers. That's not PVP. It's low-risk target practice. It's anti-fun and undermines a lot of the more enjoyable mechanics in the game, since engagements can't even be made more likely, let alone forced.

Therendal your ideas are bloody atrocious, they all act as ridiculously massive nerfs to countless, very much "active", players and operations.

And for what?

What is the goal?

Like I said, it's to remove the uncertainty and threat that a single little old name in the local list represents.

Why should you be able to remove that uncertainty and threat from nullsec? Where is the counter balance to the massive reduction in uncertainty and threat, and the massive nerf to ACTIVE players your ideas create? What about the fact your ideas entirely destroy core mechanics of wormhole space?

This is pathetic. We all know what this is about, and it's definitely not "AFK" none-entities who are by definition incapable of doing anything

The intent was not to berate or insult, but to simply expose the nerve root of the real issue. It is obvious that what people are attributing to AFK cloaking being a problem is actually a syndrome caused by lack of feeling safe in an unsafe situation. Everyone wants to nerf the cloaker, but no one wants to correct the behaviors in others that are causing the need for AFK cloaking.

I just want to point out the elephant in the room. There is in fact a giant pink elephant in the room. You may be upset because I pointed it out instead of going the round about way of saying BUFF THE ROOM! ITS TOO SMALL! or NERF THE ELEPHANT! the fact is, that none of those statements ever get to the real statement WHY IS THIS PINK ELEPHANT IN THE ROOM?

Why are botters seemingly allowed to play in null systems? Why do nullbears feel safe in deep null sov systems? Why do highsec miners/missioners feel entitled to complete safety? None of these things are at the core of Eve online. AFK cloaking, and the use of cloaked ships have evolved to combat these things. NO ONE IS SAFE, that's the whole foundation of the game. If you want to play a game and be safe everywhere, I hear Disney has many F2P games available that would fit your fancy. But this is a cold dark universe, not Hello Kitty Island Adventure.


Safety anywhere is an illusion, an illusion that is shattered by an AFK cloaker.

But theres no counter to a Cloaked ship! Everything is a counter to a cloaked ship. Anything that passes within 2000m of it is a counter. After decloaking they cant recloak immeadiately, evening the playing field. Cloaked ships don't have the same tank as a non-cloaked ship, so in reality, the cloak IS that persons tank. If I come within 2000m of your exhumer, do your shields drop to 0? Didn't think so. There are sensor recalibration times associated with cloaked ships. If a recon uncloaks next to you, you have a few seconds to run away while he cant even target you! Fitting a prototype cloak (t1) to a ship makes that ship almost useless. It has serious speed nerf while cloaked, not to mention the other side effects like not even being able to war cloaked. Everyone can see where you land! if they have a bead on you..youre going nowhere fast. There are many other downsides to cloaked ships, anyone who flies them can tell you what they are.

Attributing all of these perceived safety problems to AFK cloaking is pointing out a symptom of a much larger problem, a problem that will in no way be fixed by doing anything to cloaks.

Now OP, you may think that im picking on you, when in fact, this is directed to all the people who EVERYDAY make these threads. Its just by pure coincidence that I have chosen this thread to be vocal in instead of trolling it to death with a youtube link of Dr Cox saying NO! in a rant or a picard face palm picture, or just giving it an obligatory NERF AFK CLOAKING THREAD #ONEHUNDREDGOGILLIONBILLIONFOFILLION. The fact is, when people say that AFK cloaking is not broken and it doesn't need to be "fixed", its the truth, not because we like to annoy people with our cloaked alts, its because we all understand that AFK cloaking isn't the problem, and the 'Fix' needs to be applied to where the game is truly broken, not where where the blame is being placed.

First of all, I listed ideas that aren't new or novel, and this issue has been rehashed over and over again. I always wonder why people are so keen to defend this "playstyle", though. It is bad game design for a player who is totally AFK and nonpresent to have an effect on players in the game. This does all boil down to being able to see them on local, and removing automatic participation in local (like W-space) would do away with the psychological aspect of this.

I believe CCP created the local channels for exactly the reason that they WANT people to see that they have unknown, unidentified enemies in the system. This encourages fighting, and that is a good thing. But when one side holds all of the tactical advantage and can simply decide to go paint a room in their house, while the other side is sitting there unable to ascertain in any way if the other player is active, then something is simply wrong.

How about this: when a player is AFK more than, say, 20 minutes, they disappear from local. If they come back, they reconnect. This balances the intel aspect, because it tells you nothing else other than the fact that a player is present and recently active.

It's not about trying to make cloaked ships weak or less effective, it's about trying to make sure people are actually playing the damn game if we're going to report their presence in a system. Give us tools to counter, give us a way to PLAY THE GAME in such a way that we can actually engage in a defense of our systems. Otherwise, just remove local chat auto-participation, which I like a lot less, because local chat auto-participation COULD be a great way to escalate simple spying into some good fights, if the cloakers weren't in total control of the engagement(or lack thereof).

And lose the attitude. Noone is breaking your precious Internet Spaceships game by suggesting ideas you don't like.

Two things, Nikk:

You say:



I'd argue that the AFK cloaker is getting a direct effect on gameplay with no player interaction, too. I'd argue that his effect on gameplay is much larger than the other side of this. A single cloaky camper can AFK for 18 hours and leave an entire system on effective lockdown.

And the second thing, mostly unrelated to cloaky ships at all: the new anomaly scanning system makes it trivial to jump into a system and, while still holding cloak on gate, to locate ships in anomalies using nothing but d-scan, which has no counter (you can't play sig games to fall off of dscan while ratting). It used to require skill to zero in on anomalies and warp right in without probes. Now all it takes is a quick 360 scan, and then point toward the reticules with a narrow-band scan, then warp. Fast/lucky players can be in system and on top of a ratter before they even have time to align and warp.

I'm sure someone will say "always be aligned". But doesn't that strike you as a bit silly?