These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Science & Industry

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

So high sec miners, expect to get screwed more
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Tauranon
Weeesearch
CAStabouts
#81 - 2013-07-10 10:05:08 UTC
Erutpar Ambient wrote:
Tauranon wrote:
Gun mining in missions was seriously nerfed with the removal of base t1 modules. I don't see the point in _all_ refines being non perfect refines. The only net impact that has on the game is make hauler drops slightly more valuable (as they are minerals already). If they want nullsec refines to be slightly better relative to highsec refines, then make 30% base (or whatever it is) to 32% base, or whatever moves it usefully closer.

Further impacting the actual module drops would leave us at the point where it is impossible to build a T1 frigate out of highsec derived resources, which is a stupid place for the game to be.

they have already seriously damaged the ability to reprocess stuff to reformat the minerals to current market demand without losses because of how many blueprints now carry extra materials.


Eve no longer needs to rely on highsec to obtain megacyte. There are plenty of sources in WH and Null space. I wouldn't be offended if they removed zydrine and megacyte from frigates though. As long as they perportionally increase them in BS's.


Eve never has relied on highsec for megacyte. When I am building ships, I can pull more than 25% of the mins sold in dodixie and spend quite some time with leading orders for all mins in a day, and no-one ever sells me a volume basket with proportional highends (ie the output of reproccing regionwide module orders or the like). The highends come from importers, and only after they grudgingly give up hoping a sell orders buyer will turn up before they go to bed. People that sell baskets never have big volume.

The only time gunmining was effective in highsec, was when pirates loaded base t1 modules, and drones dropped drone poop. its already thoroughly been dealt with.
Sir Marksalot
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#82 - 2013-07-10 10:50:54 UTC
Coriele Calec wrote:
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
Here is a serious question: Why should MFG essentially be most efficient in highsec, where operating expenses are negligible, and ascertaining materials and selling products is not only much less risky, but easier?
Because part of the reason why it is viewed as easier has to do with the inherent properties of nullsec.

I'm all for giving player built station awesome things, like manufacturing slots and (with skills) fantastic refining. They're cool things, something you built, and they should be awesome.

But the idea that you can "fix" nullsec industry by increasing station slots or refining percentages only works if you completely ignore Jita, Amarr, Dodixie, Hek and Rens. There's no realistic way of making manufacturing more inefficient in highsec, because you're not competing against slot costs, you're competing against the ability to use a freighter instead of a JF, traveling half a dozen jumps instead of cyno chains across multiple regions, against the ability to buy whatever raw material you need, whenever you need it, in one centralized location.

The tradehubs require a stability and level of traffic that no one is able and/or interested in providing in nullsec; The tradehubs are themselves the result of emergent gameplay within the rules of highsec.

The whole "risk vs reward"-schtick doesn't work for all aspects of a sandbox game, and thinking that it should is, well, themepark bullshit.


We have tradehubs.
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#83 - 2013-07-10 11:08:45 UTC
Coriele Calec wrote:
The whole "risk vs reward"-schtick doesn't work for all aspects of a sandbox game, and thinking that it should is, well, themepark bullshit.


I want to highlight the important part so that the risk reward people get it, this person gets it.

The logic is that the facilities are better in High Sec due to lower risk, so better plant, this is reinforced by the simple fact that hardly any Stations in null have been improved. Incidentally I have been involved in two station builds in my time in Eve.

Lets take HS logic a bit further, like many I spent some time running missions with selected corps to get no tax, I also trained for perfect refine, that takes time.

High Sec is a competitive market there as there are many stations from many different NPC corps offering those services, so low tax and excellent quality service is key to them.

Whereas in 0.0 people there tend to have contempt for anyone that has a industry focus, so they don't bother upgrading their stations, if the 0.0 spergelords really want to make the case of competing with HS then upgrade your stations and then complain, but like always its cheap and easy whining based on your own lazyness and contempt, so HTFU!

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp
Sir Marksalot
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#84 - 2013-07-10 11:35:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Sir Marksalot
Dracvlad wrote:
Coriele Calec wrote:
The whole "risk vs reward"-schtick doesn't work for all aspects of a sandbox game, and thinking that it should is, well, themepark bullshit.


I want to highlight the important part so that the risk reward people get it, this person gets it.

The logic is that the facilities are better in High Sec due to lower risk, so better plant, this is reinforced by the simple fact that hardly any Stations in null have been improved. Incidentally I have been involved in two station builds in my time in Eve.

Lets take HS logic a bit further, like many I spent some time running missions with selected corps to get no tax, I also trained for perfect refine, that takes time.

High Sec is a competitive market there as there are many stations from many different NPC corps offering those services, so low tax and excellent quality service is key to them.

Whereas in 0.0 people there tend to have contempt for anyone that has a industry focus, so they don't bother upgrading their stations, if the 0.0 spergelords really want to make the case of competing with HS then upgrade your stations and then complain, but like always its cheap and easy whining based on your own lazyness and contempt, so HTFU!


I like how you talk about these things like you know what you're talking about.

Nullsec industry isn't (wasn't? This expansion helped alot) dead because mining was worthless and our stations barely had any slots. No, it's lazyness. And probably contempt.

All those BS/Caps/Supers just come out of nowhere~
Coriele Calec
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#85 - 2013-07-10 11:40:07 UTC
Sir Marksalot wrote:
Coriele Calec wrote:
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
Here is a serious question: Why should MFG essentially be most efficient in highsec, where operating expenses are negligible, and ascertaining materials and selling products is not only much less risky, but easier?
Because part of the reason why it is viewed as easier has to do with the inherent properties of nullsec.

I'm all for giving player built station awesome things, like manufacturing slots and (with skills) fantastic refining. They're cool things, something you built, and they should be awesome.

But the idea that you can "fix" nullsec industry by increasing station slots or refining percentages only works if you completely ignore Jita, Amarr, Dodixie, Hek and Rens. There's no realistic way of making manufacturing more inefficient in highsec, because you're not competing against slot costs, you're competing against the ability to use a freighter instead of a JF, traveling half a dozen jumps instead of cyno chains across multiple regions, against the ability to buy whatever raw material you need, whenever you need it, in one centralized location.

The tradehubs require a stability and level of traffic that no one is able and/or interested in providing in nullsec; The tradehubs are themselves the result of emergent gameplay within the rules of highsec.

The whole "risk vs reward"-schtick doesn't work for all aspects of a sandbox game, and thinking that it should is, well, themepark bullshit.


We have tradehubs.
Whoever told you size doesn't matter was just trying to be nice.
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#86 - 2013-07-10 11:47:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Dracvlad
Sir Marksalot wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:
Coriele Calec wrote:
The whole "risk vs reward"-schtick doesn't work for all aspects of a sandbox game, and thinking that it should is, well, themepark bullshit.


I want to highlight the important part so that the risk reward people get it, this person gets it.

The logic is that the facilities are better in High Sec due to lower risk, so better plant, this is reinforced by the simple fact that hardly any Stations in null have been improved. Incidentally I have been involved in two station builds in my time in Eve.

Lets take HS logic a bit further, like many I spent some time running missions with selected corps to get no tax, I also trained for perfect refine, that takes time.

High Sec is a competitive market there as there are many stations from many different NPC corps offering those services, so low tax and excellent quality service is key to them.

Whereas in 0.0 people there tend to have contempt for anyone that has a industry focus, so they don't bother upgrading their stations, if the 0.0 spergelords really want to make the case of competing with HS then upgrade your stations and then complain, but like always its cheap and easy whining based on your own lazyness and contempt, so HTFU!


I like how you talk about these things like you know what you're talking about.

Nullsec industry isn't (wasn't? This expansion helped alot) dead because mining was worthless and our stations barely had any slots. No, it's lazyness. And probably contempt.

All those BS/Caps/Supers just come out of nowhere~


Null sec stations need additional improvements and I have stated that in thuis thread, but all this whining from people who have not even bothered to make improvements to their Amarr and Mimatar stations gets tedious.

So why haven't people improved their stations in 0.0?

EDIT: Been involved in two station builds and one aborted station improve, been involved in making lots of ships in 0.0 in stations and also in a POS when the alliance I was in had a refining station only. Helped build some carriers, by adding my build slots to the effort. Have not yet built a super or better, as have not been in a situation to do so and I have yet to do those skills. Of course Supers and Titans are built in 0.0, something to do with CSAA's tied to Sov. So far I have not done any T2 manufacturing, there you go my experience.

Perhaps one day I will ask you the exact fitting and numbers required to gank a freighter, I bow to your exceptional expertise there!

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#87 - 2013-07-10 14:06:26 UTC
Coriele Calec wrote:
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
Here is a serious question: Why should MFG essentially be most efficient in highsec, where operating expenses are negligible, and ascertaining materials and selling products is not only much less risky, but easier?
Because part of the reason why it is viewed as easier has to do with the inherent properties of nullsec.

I'm all for giving player built station awesome things, like manufacturing slots and (with skills) fantastic refining. They're cool things, something you built, and they should be awesome.

But the idea that you can "fix" nullsec industry by increasing station slots or refining percentages only works if you completely ignore Jita, Amarr, Dodixie, Hek and Rens. There's no realistic way of making manufacturing more inefficient in highsec, because you're not competing against slot costs, you're competing against the ability to use a freighter instead of a JF, traveling half a dozen jumps instead of cyno chains across multiple regions, against the ability to buy whatever raw material you need, whenever you need it, in one centralized location.

The tradehubs require a stability and level of traffic that no one is able and/or interested in providing in nullsec; The tradehubs are themselves the result of emergent gameplay within the rules of highsec.

The whole "risk vs reward"-schtick doesn't work for all aspects of a sandbox game, and thinking that it should is, well, themepark bullshit.


A couple points:

Trade hubs exist in nullsec, just fine. They don't have the movement of Jita, but they are there, and healthy in the more densely populated areas.

I don't consider the Risk vs Reward shtick bullshit... I consider it a check that helps maintain game balance. Here's the truth, nerf highsec S&I tomorrow by decreasing all Highsec refine rates by 10%, by increase all line costs by 1000 fold, and guess what... Highsec MFG'ers will just pass the cost on to consumers and will adapt without difficulty!!! And everyone would be better off!
Huttan Funaila
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#88 - 2013-07-10 15:07:36 UTC
Dracvlad wrote:
So why haven't people improved their stations in 0.0?

People have upgraded their outposts. It isn't enough to get them to the standard of the average highsec station.
http://games.chruker.dk/eve_online/outpost_construction.php

Sure, you can find high sec stations with 30% refineries, but you have to look for ones that bad. Minmatar outposts start there. To get the other racial outposts to 30% refining involves spending about 30B isk in upgrades (a minimum of 4 freighter trips from highsec as the upgrade units are only NPC sold and are 750k m3 each).
YuuKnow
The Scope
#89 - 2013-07-10 20:39:43 UTC
I''ld like to see NPC corp taxes apply to reprocessing, market transactions, and contract transactions to incentive players to get out from the shadow of NPC protection.

I'ld also like to see Player Corps be able to apply more creative taxes (rather than just rewards and bounty taxes) to their corp members as a means of generating corp income without the "all or nothing" approach some corps have to resort to for isk.

yk
Tauranon
Weeesearch
CAStabouts
#90 - 2013-07-11 00:18:24 UTC
YuuKnow wrote:
I''ld like to see NPC corp taxes apply to reprocessing, market transactions, and contract transactions to incentive players to get out from the shadow of NPC protection.

I'ld also like to see Player Corps be able to apply more creative taxes (rather than just rewards and bounty taxes) to their corp members as a means of generating corp income without the "all or nothing" approach some corps have to resort to for isk.

yk


Right because now if your corp is capable of defending space it can't tax refining, it can't drop pocos and set taxes on them, and it can't take the goo from the moons in the defended space. oh wait......

In any case, your plan of taxing people so that they go join taxing entities, sounds like a completely sound plan, I'm sure it will work this time, and I promise to not just keep using my own 0% tax TCC (three character corporation).
Sir Marksalot
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#91 - 2013-07-11 01:03:32 UTC
Tauranon wrote:
YuuKnow wrote:
I''ld like to see NPC corp taxes apply to reprocessing, market transactions, and contract transactions to incentive players to get out from the shadow of NPC protection.

I'ld also like to see Player Corps be able to apply more creative taxes (rather than just rewards and bounty taxes) to their corp members as a means of generating corp income without the "all or nothing" approach some corps have to resort to for isk.

yk


Right because now if your corp is capable of defending space it can't tax refining, it can't drop pocos and set taxes on them, and it can't take the goo from the moons in the defended space. oh wait......

In any case, your plan of taxing people so that they go join taxing entities, sounds like a completely sound plan, I'm sure it will work this time, and I promise to not just keep using my own 0% tax TCC (three character corporation).


The refinery tax is done pretty terribly. We need a way to tax different categories of items (or even individual!) at different rates. Sure we should tax refining. Now a corp's miners pay their fair share just like miners do. People that mine and compress their minerals get hit -twice- if they compress and sell locally. It's a pretty terrible system to work with.

Also, nobody cares about your stupid isolated 3 character altcorp in highsec.
Sir Marksalot
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#92 - 2013-07-11 01:10:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Sir Marksalot
Dracvlad wrote:
Sir Marksalot wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:
Coriele Calec wrote:
The whole "risk vs reward"-schtick doesn't work for all aspects of a sandbox game, and thinking that it should is, well, themepark bullshit.


I want to highlight the important part so that the risk reward people get it, this person gets it.

The logic is that the facilities are better in High Sec due to lower risk, so better plant, this is reinforced by the simple fact that hardly any Stations in null have been improved. Incidentally I have been involved in two station builds in my time in Eve.

Lets take HS logic a bit further, like many I spent some time running missions with selected corps to get no tax, I also trained for perfect refine, that takes time.

High Sec is a competitive market there as there are many stations from many different NPC corps offering those services, so low tax and excellent quality service is key to them.

Whereas in 0.0 people there tend to have contempt for anyone that has a industry focus, so they don't bother upgrading their stations, if the 0.0 spergelords really want to make the case of competing with HS then upgrade your stations and then complain, but like always its cheap and easy whining based on your own lazyness and contempt, so HTFU!


I like how you talk about these things like you know what you're talking about.

Nullsec industry isn't (wasn't? This expansion helped alot) dead because mining was worthless and our stations barely had any slots. No, it's lazyness. And probably contempt.

All those BS/Caps/Supers just come out of nowhere~


Null sec stations need additional improvements and I have stated that in thuis thread, but all this whining from people who have not even bothered to make improvements to their Amarr and Mimatar stations gets tedious.

So why haven't people improved their stations in 0.0?

EDIT: Been involved in two station builds and one aborted station improve, been involved in making lots of ships in 0.0 in stations and also in a POS when the alliance I was in had a refining station only. Helped build some carriers, by adding my build slots to the effort. Have not yet built a super or better, as have not been in a situation to do so and I have yet to do those skills. Of course Supers and Titans are built in 0.0, something to do with CSAA's tied to Sov. So far I have not done any T2 manufacturing, there you go my experience.

Perhaps one day I will ask you the exact fitting and numbers required to gank a freighter, I bow to your exceptional expertise there!



There's not much of a reason to upgrade random ass ratting stations. Even then, you can get perfect refines from a minmatar station with one single upgrade (I think, cba to check). And for the most part they were (and for alot of stations still are) pointless to upgrade.

But go on and tell us how nullsec industry sucks because we seem to have some inexplicable hatred of people who make stuff. I'm sure it had nothing to do with mining being terrible and a lack of station slots/refining ability.


e: I almost forgot. Great work looking me up on google/evekill or whatever. Am I supposed to feel burned because you pointed out that I've helped gank almost a trillion isk in freighters?

e2: Because I know it's going to be pointed out by someone, I'm just going to answer the question right now. My damage done is as low as it is because shitloadsofalts, scimitars, and bumping.
Zifrian
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
#93 - 2013-07-11 02:12:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Zifrian
Huttan Funaila wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:
So why haven't people improved their stations in 0.0?

People have upgraded their outposts. It isn't enough to get them to the standard of the average highsec station.
http://games.chruker.dk/eve_online/outpost_construction.php

Sure, you can find high sec stations with 30% refineries, but you have to look for ones that bad. Minmatar outposts start there. To get the other racial outposts to 30% refining involves spending about 30B isk in upgrades (a minimum of 4 freighter trips from highsec as the upgrade units are only NPC sold and are 750k m3 each).

No, no...we are just lazy. Get it right. It's not that most alliances would spend 30bill and the the pita logistics doing something else like building a super, which is pretty fing easy compared to a station upgrade, OR that those station upgrades are crap...it's that we are LAZY.

Maximze your Industry Potential! - Download EVE Isk per Hour!

Import CCP's SDE - EVE SDE Database Builder
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#94 - 2013-07-11 05:55:23 UTC
Zifrian wrote:
Huttan Funaila wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:
So why haven't people improved their stations in 0.0?

People have upgraded their outposts. It isn't enough to get them to the standard of the average highsec station.
http://games.chruker.dk/eve_online/outpost_construction.php

Sure, you can find high sec stations with 30% refineries, but you have to look for ones that bad. Minmatar outposts start there. To get the other racial outposts to 30% refining involves spending about 30B isk in upgrades (a minimum of 4 freighter trips from highsec as the upgrade units are only NPC sold and are 750k m3 each).

No, no...we are just lazy. Get it right. It's not that most alliances would spend 30bill and the the pita logistics doing something else like building a super, which is pretty fing easy compared to a station upgrade, OR that those station upgrades are crap...it's that we are LAZY.


I agree thath the upgrade costs are stupidly expensive and should be reduced in price and the improvements should put them at the same level as HS, but all the 0.0 Sov people moaning about HS when they should be focussed on getting CCP to sort out their stations first is typical. Fact is that I support improving 0.0 Sov stations being cheaper and easier to improve and having better refining rates too. But all you hear is nerf HS from you lot, its pretty damn stupid.

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#95 - 2013-07-11 06:03:45 UTC
Sir Marksalot wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:
Sir Marksalot wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:
Coriele Calec wrote:
The whole "risk vs reward"-schtick doesn't work for all aspects of a sandbox game, and thinking that it should is, well, themepark bullshit.


I want to highlight the important part so that the risk reward people get it, this person gets it.

The logic is that the facilities are better in High Sec due to lower risk, so better plant, this is reinforced by the simple fact that hardly any Stations in null have been improved. Incidentally I have been involved in two station builds in my time in Eve.

Lets take HS logic a bit further, like many I spent some time running missions with selected corps to get no tax, I also trained for perfect refine, that takes time.

High Sec is a competitive market there as there are many stations from many different NPC corps offering those services, so low tax and excellent quality service is key to them.

Whereas in 0.0 people there tend to have contempt for anyone that has a industry focus, so they don't bother upgrading their stations, if the 0.0 spergelords really want to make the case of competing with HS then upgrade your stations and then complain, but like always its cheap and easy whining based on your own lazyness and contempt, so HTFU!


I like how you talk about these things like you know what you're talking about.

Nullsec industry isn't (wasn't? This expansion helped alot) dead because mining was worthless and our stations barely had any slots. No, it's lazyness. And probably contempt.

All those BS/Caps/Supers just come out of nowhere~


Null sec stations need additional improvements and I have stated that in thuis thread, but all this whining from people who have not even bothered to make improvements to their Amarr and Mimatar stations gets tedious.

So why haven't people improved their stations in 0.0?

EDIT: Been involved in two station builds and one aborted station improve, been involved in making lots of ships in 0.0 in stations and also in a POS when the alliance I was in had a refining station only. Helped build some carriers, by adding my build slots to the effort. Have not yet built a super or better, as have not been in a situation to do so and I have yet to do those skills. Of course Supers and Titans are built in 0.0, something to do with CSAA's tied to Sov. So far I have not done any T2 manufacturing, there you go my experience.

Perhaps one day I will ask you the exact fitting and numbers required to gank a freighter, I bow to your exceptional expertise there!



There's not much of a reason to upgrade random ass ratting stations. Even then, you can get perfect refines from a minmatar station with one single upgrade (I think, cba to check). And for the most part they were (and for alot of stations still are) pointless to upgrade.

But go on and tell us how nullsec industry sucks because we seem to have some inexplicable hatred of people who make stuff. I'm sure it had nothing to do with mining being terrible and a lack of station slots/refining ability.


e: I almost forgot. Great work looking me up on google/evekill or whatever. Am I supposed to feel burned because you pointed out that I've helped gank almost a trillion isk in freighters?

e2: Because I know it's going to be pointed out by someone, I'm just going to answer the question right now. My damage done is as low as it is because shitloadsofalts, scimitars, and bumping.


When last I looked the majority of Mimatar stations in 0.0 were not upgraded, as I said it could be lazyness and contempt, in other words not bothered, as its easier and cheaper to moan about HS, and anyway you have better things to spend your vast ISK on then upgrading stations. Many others have an issue in that 0.0 is unstable and will lose their station, so don't bother, which explains why HS have the edge. My point is that people here complain about the difference when they have not upgraded their own stations and they should be pushing CCP to improve your stations more and lesson the cost of the upgrade, instead of nerf HS!

Actually no, while reading the Marmite thread in C&P and saw you talking about it, my understanding may be incorrect but I thought you were one of the leaders of the Freighter ganking efforts, and in any case DPS on ganks is not really a measure of skill, a lot of luck comes into it in terms of shots and hits.

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp
Lilan Kahn
The Littlest Hobos
The Whale Hunters Association
#96 - 2013-07-12 00:41:41 UTC
lvl 5 skills get you perfect refines so whats the big issue ?
Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
#97 - 2013-07-12 01:10:07 UTC
Lilan Kahn wrote:
lvl 5 skills get you perfect refines so whats the big issue ?


If it was true that high sec refining perfection would still be achieved with perfect skills, then this would be a non-issue.
But listen to the recording. That is not what soundwave says.

He makes it clear that NO WAY should perfect refine exist.
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#98 - 2013-07-12 05:52:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Dracvlad
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
Lilan Kahn wrote:
lvl 5 skills get you perfect refines so whats the big issue ?


If it was true that high sec refining perfection would still be achieved with perfect skills, then this would be a non-issue.
But listen to the recording. That is not what soundwave says.

He makes it clear that NO WAY should perfect refine exist.


And that is wrong, purely on a game basis, you skill up as to make the grind take less of your time and this GM comes along and says you guys have to do more boring grinding because perfect refining should not exist, the key thing is that its making you waste more time mining. This GM needs his head examined...

Lets take poor game design that costs you the player time, take cyno alts, if you log one to use another and log back on the first one and invite to fleet and they still have a cyno running you don't have the option of jumping to their cyno and there is no good reason for that. This wastes your time as a player. For a GM to say there should be no perfect refining in game, why? what the hell difference does it make apart from making you players grind less, its stupid .

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp
Tenchi Sal
White Knights of Equestria
#99 - 2013-07-12 19:13:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Tenchi Sal
Dracvlad wrote:
[quote=Dinsdale Pirannha]

And that is wrong, purely on a game basis, you skill up as to make the grind take less of your time and this GM comes along and says you guys have to do more boring grinding because perfect refining should not exist, the key thing is that its making you waste more time mining. This GM needs his head examined...

Lets take poor game design that costs you the player time, take cyno alts, if you log one to use another and log back on the first one and invite to fleet and they still have a cyno running you don't have the option of jumping to their cyno and there is no good reason for that. This wastes your time as a player. For a GM to say there should be no perfect refining in game, why? what the hell difference does it make apart from making you players grind less, its stupid .


well his main char is in a null sec alliance so theres a good chance he favors nerfing high sec to make null sec more attractive.

correct me if im wrong but i do believe this is the same guy who said he wanted to make all systems have two large asteroid belts instead of the current system. this seems to be all in an effort to get more miners blown up by gankers.
Red lensman
BlackSky inc.
#100 - 2013-07-12 20:02:16 UTC
Perfect refining in high sec takes a massive amount of work I'm perfect refine in 8-12 corporations which took 2-3 years work so now have perfect refine in a massive number of systems so your now going to wash that all down the drain!!