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Lowish SP Pilot: Geddon or Apoc for Lvl 4 Missions?
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Valerius Anthar
Nuts Butts and EuroSluts
#1 - 2013-07-09 01:48:04 UTC
Hello there. I've just returned to EvE after about a year or so and picked up where I left off, running level 3 missions and have built up a fairly sizeable reserve of ISK that could get me a battleship plus fitting if it's cheap. Before I came back I was switching back and forth between the Gallente and Amaar lines and wasn't sure whether I wanted to spec into a gunboat or a drone boat for doing L4s. The only thing that I have decided to do for sure is to fly Amarr ships...the heresy of ammunition has gotten to me P.

It seems that the with the new switching to drones the rats like to do, mediums and sometimes even lights have become difficult to use in the same way that I was using them before, which admittedly was just hit F with little regard to recall (hey at least it wasn't afk!). For example I was puttering around in my Prophecy today and tried to operate mid-close range with Hheads and Hobs out but even with frequent aggro management and pulling the drones in and out, the tracking of certain ships seemed to get two or three drones every mission. Am I doing something wrong here or is it just the way it is now? I'm not talking letting them tank 40km from my bay for a while but them getting almost one shot a few seconds after release at close range. This means that sentry drones have become the go to thing, and that style of play can be irritating with having to scoop them up and run every so often. It's not horrible but in the Prophecy at least it doesn't seem very efficient unless I can kill all of them before they get too close.

So with that in mind it would seem that an Apoc would be a nice starting gunboat, but since it is T2 and I've never done L4 missions yet it would seem riskier than a sentry sniper Armageddon. Here is a quick rundown of what skills I have in terms of cap, drones, turrets and tank.

Drones- Mostly 4, with a few 5. T2 Gallente Drones, T1 everything else. Have access to T2 damage amps but no T2 Omni or Links, or T2 sentries. :$
Guns - Good Gunnery Skills, mostly 4 with 5 in Controlled bursts, no T2 lasers or ammo ( I hear scorch pulses is pretty important.)
Tank - All T2 Modules. Also T2 heat sinks.
Cap Skills - Meh, especially for laser ships. I suppose implants could help here but I'd like to keep this basic for learning missions rather than ripping through them.

Then there is the issue of the Geddon no longer having bonuses to zappy zappy. Skilling up to cruise missiles would add alot of time, not to mention missiles are icky :C. But I can see with the sniperfit how it would be necessary because if you add lasers it's going to be very resource intensive and the whole point of the sentry fit is to be as far away as possible, beyond even beam range. I suppose railguns could be a way of compromise because I have railgun skills on par with my lasers skills at the moment, and I hear at extreme range they are pretty good. Also I'm aware the Dominix is better for this sort of thing but between a space whale and a golden phallic symbol I have to go with the symbol. Maybe Freud would have something to say on the matter but anyhoo...

Final factor: since I'm basing in a station near a friend and have been running L2/3 missions with him (he's a younger pilot but not by much) I'd like to stay nearish Gallente space. Yes that means flying Amarr ships against Serpentis and the like, but it also means no TD, which is good if I'm flying an Apoc right? I could see how it would be bad for targeting though, you can't snipe at all if your targeting range is nothing. He will likely be flying a Megathron at some point and we will be duoing missions, but probably in a month or so.

If any kind Amaar BS pilots would let me know their thoughts, I would appreciate it. Budget is about, eeeeeiiiiiiiiaasssh, 150-200 mill. That's not too unrealistic is it?
Tsukino Stareine
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#2 - 2013-07-09 02:05:46 UTC
apoc always

damage projection and cap use are far more important than tank and pure damage in a laser boat.

However you have to take into account where you are missioning, using lasers you cannot change your damage type very easily (only shift the quantity one way or another with EM/therm damage) which means you're pretty much limited to amarr space and gallente/caldari is somewhat feasible.

I'm really going to suggest the dominix, it's just become so strong since the expansion. Just stick 3 DDAs on it and a MJD, make sure you can control drones to at least 70km and use navy gardes and fill mids with omnidirectional links and you can 4 slot tank it without too much problems.



If you want to use drones then amarr might not be the best idea for you. The Amarr Armageddon is pretty decent at what it does but the Gallente dominix far outstrips its capabilities where drones are concerned.

Serpentis rats don't TD but they do sensor damp, which is arguably even worse. Sentry drones mitigate a lot of that since if you set them on aggressive they will attack anything within your drone control range, so while your targeting range might be damped to 15km your sentries are still doing work albeit not always on the targets you prefer.

[Dominix, low sp]
Drone Damage Amplifier II
Drone Damage Amplifier II
Drone Damage Amplifier II
Large Armor Repairer II
Reactive Armor Hardener
Armor Kinetic Hardener II
Armor Thermic Hardener II

Omnidirectional Tracking Link I
Omnidirectional Tracking Link I
Omnidirectional Tracking Link I
Large Micro Jump Drive
Cap Recharger II

Drone Link Augmentor I
Drone Link Augmentor I
[empty high slot]
[empty high slot]
[empty high slot]
[empty high slot]

Large Drone Scope Chip I
Large Capacitor Control Circuit I
Large Capacitor Control Circuit I


Federation Navy Garde x5

something like that will net you around 500+ish DPS to 50km+ depending on skills of course.


Art of Explosions
Valerius Anthar
Nuts Butts and EuroSluts
#3 - 2013-07-09 05:55:30 UTC
Thanks for the reply Tsukino.

You confirmed my initial suspicions, it looks like the Dominix is simply too good to pass up. Sigh. If only the Geddon had a laser bonus instead of a neut bonus it would make for a decent hybrid ship. I'm sure it's great in fleet pvp though (do neuts even work on npcs?)

My plan will be to use the Dominix, earn money, see how the mission goes and figure out which ones are profitable, while I skill up for the Apoc.

What skills would you say are most important to have before stepping into one? From what you're saying, gank is tank, and right now my tank skills are decent but the ganking part is the issue.

I'm guessing:

Tachyon Beams in Highs. (Ammo to use? Multifreq + one ranged crystal?)

2x TC t2
Cap Booster
100mn Exp AB

3x Heat Sinks T2
AR T2
Kinetic Hardener T2
Thermal Hardener T2
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane T2

Rigs- one CCC, other two damage? Or perhaps fitting related if I can't fit it.

Zenith Gravit
LionGate Enterprises
#4 - 2013-07-09 17:00:11 UTC
Cap boosters in my opinion are not a viable PvE option in most cases. You just can't carry enough charges to get and decent amount of cap use, especially on a laser boat. Take a look at the Navy Geddon if you're interested in lasers and drones. I'm flying one now in null to ruj anomalies. it works great.
Tsukino Stareine
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#5 - 2013-07-09 17:54:05 UTC
Zenith Gravit wrote:
Cap boosters in my opinion are not a viable PvE option in most cases. You just can't carry enough charges to get and decent amount of cap use, especially on a laser boat. Take a look at the Navy Geddon if you're interested in lasers and drones. I'm flying one now in null to ruj anomalies. it works great.


You ever done a mission with cap boosters?

People who try and achieve cap stability without a booster just gimp their ship for no reason and they only do it because they're lazy and scared of managing one more thing doing this very complicated matter of high sec pve Roll

As to the apoc fit:

Tachyons while you skill up for T2 pulses and then you will mainly use t2 mega pulses with scorch.

[Apocalypse, level 4]
Large Armor Repairer II
Heat Sink II
Heat Sink II
Reactive Armor Hardener
Armor Kinetic Hardener II
Armor Thermic Hardener II
Heat Sink II

Heavy Electrochemical Capacitor Booster I, Cap Booster 800
Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script
Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script
100MN Afterburner II

Mega Modulated Energy Beam I, Multifrequency L
Mega Modulated Energy Beam I, Multifrequency L
Mega Modulated Energy Beam I, Multifrequency L
Mega Modulated Energy Beam I, Multifrequency L
Mega Modulated Energy Beam I, Multifrequency L
Mega Modulated Energy Beam I, Multifrequency L
Mega Modulated Energy Beam I, Multifrequency L
Mega Modulated Energy Beam I, Multifrequency L

Large Capacitor Control Circuit I
Large Capacitor Control Circuit I
Large Capacitor Control Circuit I

to start off, that does 400+ DPS to around 45km optimal and 25km falloff meaning you want to be shooting at around 55km max

Then you eventually wanna get into something like this:

[Apocalypse, level 4]
Large Armor Repairer II
Heat Sink II
Heat Sink II
Reactive Armor Hardener
Armor Kinetic Hardener II
Armor Thermic Hardener II
Heat Sink II

Heavy Electrochemical Capacitor Booster I, Cap Booster 800
Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script
Cap Recharger II
100MN Afterburner II

Mega Pulse Laser II, Scorch L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Scorch L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Scorch L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Scorch L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Scorch L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Scorch L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Scorch L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Scorch L

Large Capacitor Control Circuit I
Large Capacitor Control Circuit I
Large Capacitor Control Circuit I

Art of Explosions
Riot Girl
You'll Cowards Don't Even Smoke Crack
#6 - 2013-07-09 18:01:08 UTC
Cap boosters are fine if you already have decent cap management. If you're running mission with 30s capacitor, boosters aren't going to help you much.

Oh god.
Tsukino Stareine
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#7 - 2013-07-09 18:04:16 UTC
Riot Girl wrote:
Cap boosters are fine if you already have decent cap management. If you're running mission with 30s capacitor, boosters aren't going to help you much.


30s before or after the cap booster is taken into account XD?

Art of Explosions
Whitehound
#8 - 2013-07-09 19:41:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Whitehound
You will probably be better advised with a standard (aka "boring") laser ship, but perhaps I can interest you in a pretty sweet PVE brawler, which the Armageddon can be turned into. It then becomes a fast, hard-hitting hammer of a mission runner.

Instead of using sentries, which is the choice of drones you want to use with the Dominix, are heavies here better. You keep them close and do not let them wander out far (put the drone commands on short-cuts and manually command them to orbit your ship). If they get aggro do you pull them in and relaunch them as soon as you are close to a target.

The ship flies with up to 880 m/s and you tackle your target with a web and turn the MWD off during this time. Especially Serpentis like to come closer and to dampen sensors, but at short ranges can you almost ignore their e-war (I say almost, because the locking time still goes up). Know that this requires piloting skill and you might want to avoid this; or you love it, because it makes for a good training. This is up to everyone's preference.

You use the two vampires, which reach out up to 37km, to draw cap from approaching battleships. They always have plenty and you will not run out of cap and can run your tank cap stable when you turn the guns off and only let the drones do the killing. It also helps with running the MWD and to catch up with sniping NPC battleships.

However, drones and guns combined deal up to 1011 DPS with Conflagration L (942 DPS with Multifreq. L) and make this a pretty sweet mission runner, especially for small mission pockets with many battleships:

[Armageddon]

Damage Control II
Large Armor Repairer II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Armor Thermic Hardener II (mission specific)
Armor Kinetic Hardener II (mission specific)
Drone Damage Amplifier II
Drone Damage Amplifier II

Prototype 100MN Microwarpdrive I
Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor I
Cap Recharger II
Cap Recharger II

Mega Pulse Laser II, Conflagration L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Conflagration L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Conflagration L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Conflagration L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Conflagration L
Heavy Diminishing Power System Drain I
Heavy Diminishing Power System Drain I

Large Ancillary Current Router I
Large Ancillary Current Router I
Large Capacitor Control Circuit I

Ogre II x5
Hammerhead II x5
Hobgoblin II x5

Loss is meaningful. Therefore is the loss of meaning likewise meaningful. It is the source of all trolling.
Blitz'Krieg
Joke Corp
#9 - 2013-07-09 22:57:18 UTC
Drop to meta as needed but it will do 1k dps at 40km and 550 at 100km. The mjd will keep you from tanking mostly but when you have to it will hold fine.

Drone Damage Amplifier II
Drone Damage Amplifier II
Drone Damage Amplifier II
Armor Thermic Hardener II
Armor EM Hardener II
Large Armror Repair II
Reactive Armor Hardener

Omnidirectional Tracking Link II
Omnidirectional Tracking Link II
Experimental 100MN Afterburner I
Large Micro Jump Drive

Mega Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L
Drone Link Augmentor I
Drone Link Augmentor I

Large Processor Overclocking Unit I
Large Ionic Field Projector I
Large Targeting System Subcontroller I


Navy sentries
Shereza
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#10 - 2013-07-09 23:51:06 UTC
All things considered as it currently exists I don't think I could recommend the apocalypse to low-SP players who are, presumably at least, just getting started on L4 missions.

Armageddon: With its primary PvE bonus (yes, the vampire bonus is applicable to PvE even if marginally) to drones you have no need to worry about using low slots for damage application leaving them free for tank and raw damage boosting. Better still the armageddon has 5 launcher hardpoints to let it fit launchers, and with the recent buff to cruise missiles they're a solid choice to use. Fitting projectile guns is another option for capless combat, but artillery is going to be as much of a pain to fit as torpedo launchers, and until you can fit T2 ammo you'll have range issues with ACs without using an MWD.

Were I to fit one in the modern environment it would look something like this:
[Armageddon, L4 Low SP]
Large 'Accommodation' Vestment Reconstructer I
True Sansha Armor EM Hardener
True Sansha Armor EM Hardener
True Sansha Armor Thermic Hardener
True Sansha Armor Thermic Hardener
Drone Damage Amplifier II
Drone Damage Amplifier II

Experimental 100MN Afterburner I
Omnidirectional Tracking Link I
Omnidirectional Tracking Link I
Omnidirectional Tracking Link I

'Arbalest' Cruise Launcher I, Mjolnir Cruise Missile
'Arbalest' Cruise Launcher I, Mjolnir Cruise Missile
'Arbalest' Cruise Launcher I, Mjolnir Cruise Missile
'Arbalest' Cruise Launcher I, Mjolnir Cruise Missile
'Arbalest' Cruise Launcher I, Mjolnir Cruise Missile
Heavy Diminishing Power System Drain I
Drone Link Augmentor I

Large Capacitor Control Circuit I
Large Capacitor Control Circuit I
Large Capacitor Control Circuit I


Garde I x5
Berserker I x5
Valkyrie II x5
Warrior I x5
Salvage Drone I x5
Heavy Armor Maintenance Bot I x1

Abaddon: Pound for pound the abaddon has the best fitting capacity, the most raw EHP, and the best possible tank which is not something that is inconsequential for players with low SP and starting on L4s. Granted that between the superior base capacitor stats on the apocalypse and both the vampire bonus and ability to use non-capacitor weapons on the armageddon the abaddon is the absolute worst ship of the lineup for firing lasers for extended periods, but the fact i that the abaddon can still provide enough regen to keep up a solid tank and still fire its guns often enough to kill stuff at a reasonable pace. Furthermore this is one of the few situations where I can unequivocally recommend using beam lasers on an (pure, not pirate hybrid) Amarr ship. A beam-based abaddon can throw out a sizable amount of damage at a solid range (up to nearly 600 rDPS at 33km/25km) and do so non-stop while also being able to run its tank non-stop if it needs to once it shuts down its lasers.

To that effect:
[Abaddon, L4 Low SP]
Large 'Accommodation' Vestment Reconstructer I
True Sansha Armor EM Hardener
True Sansha Armor EM Hardener
True Sansha Armor Thermic Hardener
Beta Reactor Control: Capacitor Power Relay I
Extruded Heat Sink I
Extruded Heat Sink I

Experimental 100MN Afterburner I
Eutectic Capacitor Charge Array
Optical Tracking Computer I
Optical Tracking Computer I

Mega Modulated Energy Beam I, Multifrequency L
Mega Modulated Energy Beam I, Multifrequency L
Mega Modulated Energy Beam I, Multifrequency L
Mega Modulated Energy Beam I, Multifrequency L
Mega Modulated Energy Beam I, Multifrequency L
Mega Modulated Energy Beam I, Multifrequency L
Mega Modulated Energy Beam I, Multifrequency L
Mega Modulated Energy Beam I, Multifrequency L

Large Capacitor Control Circuit I
Large Capacitor Control Circuit I
Large Capacitor Control Circuit I


Hammerhead I x5
Hobgoblin I x5

All that said once you have the skills for it and the money for (more since I did use faction hardeners due to their relative cheapness) faction/deadspace modules I'd switch to a more gank-oriented armageddon and T2 pulses on the abaddon. Of course if you've got the skills to fit a T2 pulse abaddon and the money for it a naval apocalypse is a much better choice. The more SP you have and the more advantage you can take of an apocalypse's bonuses the better a choice it becomes compared to the abaddon. It's only at those times early on in a pilot's "life" where tank can be very important that the abaddon is a solid choice.